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Briar and Don Schufro ? Solid rides.. low scores?

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  • Briar and Don Schufro ? Solid rides.. low scores?

    I don't quite understand.... here are two solid, exceedingly obedient horses. They each were correct, tried very hard, but I don't feel they were regarded very highly. Can you figure why?

  • #2
    Lots of expression up front but not matched with engagement behind. Watch the hind end in the extensions, for example. similar issues with both.

    Comment


    • #3
      Those are two I follow alot and have for a long time, so Im not "new to them..." IMO, they looked dull compared to their normal. DS looked like he was tired. Yes, super correct test, but lacked "expression" that seemed what the judges look for. Briar rode a clean and correct test and I think he also looked tired. His normal is a bit more on the "alive" side, which he too looked dull.
      I really think the travel and heat in Hong Kong took its toll on the normal high ranking competitors. Horse AND Riders. The normal high level players just did not seem "on their game!"
      Anyone who follows these horses, and have for the last few yrs can see, there is a lot more to them than what was in Hong Kong.
      www.spindletopfarm.net
      Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
      "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"

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      • #4
        Honestly, I gave up trying to figure out some of the dressage judging. It's like watching ice dancing. Now, I just watch to enjoy the amazing talent on display, and don't pay too much attention to placings. Otherwise, I would get very frustrated.
        Last edited by YankeeLawyer; Aug. 17, 2008, 07:15 PM.
        Roseknoll Sporthorses
        www.roseknoll.net

        Comment


        • #5
          No doubt,some horses dealt with the heat and humidity better than others.

          Comment


          • #6
            I thought that although they were very solid, that in comparison with some others, they were pretty slow behind without as much activity in the hind leg. Their front end was really expressive but their hindend didn't seem to match. I do think that they, being bigger, heavy stallions, might have been pretty affected by the heat and humidity.
            Kris
            www.edgewoodmeadowfarm.com
            Like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/edgewoodmeadowfarm

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            • #7
              As a performace stallion owner in the hot south, I believe that Hong Kong is taking a toll on the "boys".
              That extra package of testes hangs low to start with but add external heat-climate-they hang even lower. That ends up making the hind legs slower so they don't "pinch" them or they start to go wide behind.
              Stallions can have a bit of extra expresion, but it is a balancing act LOL!!

              Maryanna Haymon
              www.marydellfarm.com
              www.sporthorsestallionexpo.com
              2007 USEF Breeder of the Year!
              Maryanna Haymon- Marydell Farm - Home to Don Principe & Doctor Wendell MF
              www.marydellfarm.com
              2012 USDF Champion Breeder! 2007, 2011 USEF Champ Breeder
              2009,2010,2011 USDF Res Breeder of the Year!

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              • #8
                You can look at the scores and see what the judges "saw" if you want to.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Honestly, I gave up trying to figure out some of the dressage judging. It's like watching ice dancing. Now, I just watch to enjoy the amazing talent on display, and don't pay too much attention to placings. Otherwise, I would get very frustrated.
                  Very well said. I agree.

                  Yes, I can look at the judges' scores, and still not UNDERSTAND them at times. Obviously I'm not at that level.

                  But try explaining to your coworkers why the horse that backed up, popped up etc., won. It's difficult. And I'm not saying I don't think Isabelle is amazing. I do.

                  But *I* thought Balagur put in an equal test without the disobedience. <shrugs> What do I know. I do feel INCREDIBLY priveleged to have been able to watch every single one so far! To have the replay of the live feed available is AMAZING!
                  InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                  Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't know how to say it any better than you just did...if you think Balagur's performance should have scored better than Satchmo's....then it's clear why you are upset by the judging, and probably also clear why a great many people complain about the dressage judging.

                    Balagur is a lovely horse, and I like him just as well as anyone else.

                    But I DON'T sit there and blind myself to every single place in the test he can lose a point.

                    Neither does his rider, by the way. Sitting there and pretending all the other horses suck and the one we happen to like the most (based on some very random fact, such as we happened to read a charming story about him in the media) is perfect and only loses because the judging sucks is the province of the outside spectator, not the rider. The rider has been seeing the same basic scores with the horse for several years, s/he isn't going to get a whole lot of surprises.

                    So many people on different threads have responded over and over to complaints on the judging that judging dressage is simply not like judging a western pleasure class where one blooper puts you out of the ribbons. The score is an accumulation of dozens of different movements - SEPARATE movements.

                    If a problem is seen over and over, it WILL affect the general remarks as well, but how much does one REALLY expect a single moment to affect the standings with a score that's already working on 80?

                    We were about to see history. We were about to see the largest margin between first and second in the history of the Olympics. That blooper changed that, but it wasn't going to bring the score down enough to allow Anky to win.

                    Satchmo SHOULD have won. He was doing an incredible test. The scores on each movement were justifiably high. The test, additionally, had an ease, fluidity - oh - and fluency, that was incredible. It was overall, stunning. And other than the blooper, mistake free. Once again, the scoring is set up to ignore 'brief instinctive reactions' except in how they affect the movement.

                    You all may allow yourselves to make criticism of Isabel and say by pushing too hard she caused the blooper. I think of Isabel as more competent than any of you to decide how much to ask for during a test, and how to work with the horse to get the best score she can that day.

                    Anky did not put in her best test - even Sjeff was critical of her, and said she rode too conservatively, with 'the hand brake on all the time'.

                    Satchmo recovered perfectly from the one mistake. It did not affect any other movement in the test, except that Isabel rode him for a little less expression in each movement after the mistake, so she did not score the max in some of the following movements. That I think was out of consideration for her mount, to allow him to keep his composure and not feel pressured.

                    This, I think just reflects how well Isabel Werth knows her horse. I don't think ANYONE of those riders is so dumb as to push for the absolute max when their horse is showing some tension. It's better in a competition to go for the sure thing.

                    This Olympics has showed me one thing - people do not understand how dressage is judged - in a much more serious way than I ever imagined. I knew people didn't understand judging, but this time I can see that the understanding runs far deeper than I thought. I thought people just didn't know what the priority points were, or what loses a lot of points in a given movemnt and what loses less. Now I understand many people don't understand the whole thing.

                    Satchmo got very low scores from that movement from most of the judges, and he still won, because he only showed a problem in one movement. Please go back and look at the individual movement scores.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      But try explaining to your coworkers why the horse that backed up, popped up etc., won. It's difficult.
                      Even some dressage enthusiasts seem to think the scoring is all about having a 'fault free round' as in showjumping. How many times do we see comments similar to "the horse did not halt, why did she win?"

                      I guess for people who don't 'get it' you could show them a score sheet so they can see how you can botch one movement and still come out on top if the other movement scores are higher. Satchmo's score sheet is a good example for this.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by slc2 View Post
                        I don't know how to say it any better than you just did...if you think Balagur's performance should have scored better than Satchmo's....then it's clear why you are upset by the judging, and probably also clear why a great many people complain about the dressage judging.

                        Balagur is a lovely horse, and I like him just as well as anyone else.

                        But I DON'T sit there and blind myself to every single place in the test he can lose a point.

                        Neither does his rider, by the way. Sitting there and pretending all the other horses suck and the one we happen to like the most (based on some very random fact, such as we happened to read a charming story about him in the media) is perfect and only loses because the judging sucks is the province of the outside spectator, not the rider. The rider has been seeing the same basic scores with the horse for several years, s/he isn't going to get a whole lot of surprises.

                        So many people on different threads have responded over and over to complaints on the judging that judging dressage is simply not like judging a western pleasure class where one blooper puts you out of the ribbons. The score is an accumulation of dozens of different movements - SEPARATE movements.

                        If a problem is seen over and over, it WILL affect the general remarks as well, but how much does one REALLY expect a single moment to affect the standings with a score that's already working on 80?

                        We were about to see history. We were about to see the largest margin between first and second in the history of the Olympics. That blooper changed that, but it wasn't going to bring the score down enough to allow Anky to win.

                        Satchmo SHOULD have won. He was doing an incredible test. The scores on each movement were justifiably high. The test, additionally, had an ease, fluidity - oh - and fluency, that was incredible. It was overall, stunning. And other than the blooper, mistake free. Once again, the scoring is set up to ignore 'brief instinctive reactions' except in how they affect the movement.

                        You all may allow yourselves to make criticism of Isabel and say by pushing too hard she caused the blooper. I think of Isabel as more competent than any of you to decide how much to ask for during a test, and how to work with the horse to get the best score she can that day.

                        Anky did not put in her best test - even Sjeff was critical of her, and said she rode too conservatively, with 'the hand brake on all the time'.

                        Satchmo recovered perfectly from the one mistake. It did not affect any other movement in the test, except that Isabel rode him for a little less expression in each movement after the mistake, so she did not score the max in some of the following movements. That I think was out of consideration for her mount, to allow him to keep his composure and not feel pressured.

                        This, I think just reflects how well Isabel Werth knows her horse. I don't think ANYONE of those riders is so dumb as to push for the absolute max when their horse is showing some tension. It's better in a competition to go for the sure thing.

                        This Olympics has showed me one thing - people do not understand how dressage is judged - in a much more serious way than I ever imagined. I knew people didn't understand judging, but this time I can see that the understanding runs far deeper than I thought. I thought people just didn't know what the priority points were, or what loses a lot of points in a given movemnt and what loses less. Now I understand many people don't understand the whole thing.

                        Satchmo got very low scores from that movement from most of the judges, and he still won, because he only showed a problem in one movement. Please go back and look at the individual movement scores.
                        Just to be clear -- I was one of the ones who defended Satchmo's score. Isabel's ride was literally jaw-dropping. I actually was teared up at the end; I don't believe I have ever seen anything like that.

                        And give me a break. I have been riding and showing since before many who post here were born, and have ridden at the highest levels (albeit not in dressage) and have always had top trainers. You have people like JY -- clearly VERY knowledgeable, questioning the scoring. Clearly, some of the Olympic judges probably would say that *they* would question some of the scoring, given that one judge was so far out of whack with ALL the other judges. But, you probably would defend the disgraceful gymnastics judging as well. THAT was something.
                        Roseknoll Sporthorses
                        www.roseknoll.net

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by egontoast View Post
                          Even some dressage enthusiasts seem to think the scoring is all about having a 'fault free round' as in showjumping. How many times do we see comments similar to "the horse did not halt, why did she win?"

                          I guess for people who don't 'get it' you could show them a score sheet so they can see how you can botch one movement and still come out on top if the other movement scores are higher. Satchmo's score sheet is a good example for this.
                          You can exclude me from people who don't get it. I get it just fine, thank you. I just choose not to get wrapped up in placings, because until it is one of my horses in that ring, I would simply rather enjoy watching all of those amazing people and horses and not get aggravated when there is CLEAR nationalism reflected in SOME of the scoring SOME of the time.
                          Roseknoll Sporthorses
                          www.roseknoll.net

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            YL, I was replying to the following comment:


                            But try explaining to your coworkers why the horse that backed up, popped up etc., won. It's difficult.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by egontoast View Post
                              YL, I was replying to the following comment:
                              Oh, okay. Sorry Egontoast. I must be Olympics-related sleep-deprived : ).
                              Roseknoll Sporthorses
                              www.roseknoll.net

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                                Honestly, I gave up trying to figure out some of the dressage judging. It's like watching ice dancing. Now, I just watch to enjoy the amazing talent on display, and don't pay too much attention to placings. Otherwise, I would get very frustrated.
                                I don't know why it's difficult to figure out or there's any need for frustration.

                                Originally posted by slc2 View Post

                                This Olympics has showed me one thing - people do not understand how dressage is judged - in a much more serious way than I ever imagined. I knew people didn't understand judging, but this time I can see that the understanding runs far deeper than I thought. I thought people just didn't know what the priority points were, or what loses a lot of points in a given movemnt and what loses less. Now I understand many people don't understand the whole thing.

                                Satchmo got very low scores from that movement from most of the judges, and he still won, because he only showed a problem in one movement. Please go back and look at the individual movement scores.
                                Yes, very interesting, and something I've just taken for granted, I guess.

                                Originally posted by egontoast View Post
                                Even some dressage enthusiasts seem to think the scoring is all about having a 'fault free round' as in showjumping. How many times do we see comments similar to "the horse did not halt, why did she win?"

                                I guess for people who don't 'get it' you could show them a score sheet so they can see how you can botch one movement and still come out on top if the other movement scores are higher. Satchmo's score sheet is a good example for this.
                                That might help, it's just not judged in the same manner. I think it's pretty simple and clear, but then you have the OP's question. I'd be curious to know if JY still feels the same way after reading some of these posts and re-watching some of the rides.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Dune, unfortunately we all cannot be as knowledgeable and talented as you are. Obviously you live in a perfect world where judges do not make mistakes and politics play no role in the outcome. It must be nice.

                                  I do not always agree with the judging, but as I am aware that sometimes judges make mistakes and sometimes make decisions based on illegitimate factors, I don't waste a lot of time trying to figure out why. That was my point -- not that I *could* not understand the judging.
                                  Roseknoll Sporthorses
                                  www.roseknoll.net

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I already admitted, *I* don't get it *at that level.*

                                    I don't think that means all we peons are idiots.

                                    From both scribing at medium and higher levels, and judging weeny leetle schooling horse-trials dressage, I understand *completely* how the scoring works and how you can watch all the rides and be surprized at the outcomes sometimes.

                                    It's true, if I look at the scores, with a test sheet alongside, I can see WHY a test with a major mistake can still win.

                                    But the part I can't/don't see because I am just an enthusiast, not a professional by any means, is why one horse scores so *dramatically* higher over another, when for both the movement was correct.

                                    Sometimes I know it is because MY EYE prefers baroque movement, so I think that say a baroque trot movement which is done correctly, should receive as high a mark--if the hind end is pushing, etc--as the other type of mover.

                                    It is SO MUCH about the transitions too, and I watched them very closely. The walk-piaffe is amazingly hard. The P&P tours are where the men are separated from the boys. I *do* know that.

                                    Maybe it's because I don't know it all yet, but I DO think there is some personal preference and subjective 'artistic appreciation' in the scoring. Nothing wrong with that.

                                    And truly, the only way we are going to learn why the horses that *we* thought went well didn't score as well as we expected, is if rather than condescending and demeaning us, someone helps.

                                    Examples of things like "Oh, well, one of the spots Briar(Don Schuffro, Balagur) lost quite a few points was in the walk-piaffe transition, his hind end was really trailing... Or "oh, well that big mistake in x movement had a co-efficient so really hurt... "

                                    We ASK because we WANT to know why, and WANT to learn.

                                    Not because we're stupid.
                                    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
                                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by egontoast View Post
                                      Lots of expression up front but not matched with engagement behind. Watch the hind end in the extensions, for example. similar issues with both.
                                      This is precisely what I saw as well. Neither of those horses were using the hind end correctly to bring full marks.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        No one said you were peons or idiots. Check back. You chose to take it that way, it was never stated as that. It's a way of discounting what someone says, by twisting what they say to devalue it.

                                        I don't understand how to use a Fourrier Transform to make a optic, either. I'm not real upset about it. But I also don't sit there and complain about how my friend uses Fourrier transforms, you get my meaning?

                                        I said that alot of people don't understand how a dressage test is to be judged. That's why they're always furious after every Olympics, and complain bitterly that they are judged so badly.

                                        Keep in mind, if one sits there and bitches constantly about how bad the judges are, eventually you're going to hear some disagreement. There will always be enough disenfranchised, competition-shy people who will agree with you that judges suck, how does that exactly surprise you.

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