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Eric Lamaze rant on Facebook

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    Originally posted by ladyj79 View Post

    Yes I 100% agree! Look at what Jan Tops has done with the GCT! Beautiful venues, affordable seats, well attended with amazing amenities for all. Why do you think the FEI kept suing him
    Wait... Jan cares about the spectator experience?!?!?!

    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

    Comment


      In Cuckson's screed, she said that "October is too late in the show season for WEG. The Lexington WEG ran from the last week in September to the First Week in October. (The FEI database has the whole competition happening in 1 week but that isn't possible).

      The Olympic Games were in Atlanta in heat and humidity--from July 19th to August 4th. It wasn't a fiasco, IIRC.

      The notion that only places with climates that suit the Northern Europeans on dates that suit the Northern Europeans can have horse sport is grossly unfair.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Tiramit View Post

        I'm not vilifying anyone. I AM finding fault with his timing and carefully chosen words delivered in a highly public setting known to froth up the masses. To me, it was an unsportsmanlike and insensitive act. He has taken attention away from all of the athletes who achieved within that same setting, on "their day."

        He's also directed his ire toward the TIEC (at least it reads that way), when some of the issues were really the FEI. In this case the professional path is to work with the organization directly with an eye on the future, not try to create an online mob bashing what has already happened.

        There were amazing stories that came out of this WEG. In show jumping, we had the first woman to win gold. Not only did Simone and Alice win, but they did it without dropping a single rail all week! Our own team won gold in spectacular fashion, arguably one of the most exciting finals in history. Another inspiring story was the Colombian rider who climbed from 26th to 5th by riding 2 clear rounds on the last day. Remarkable sport.

        Add to that all of the other sports and athletes who rode in the same heat, stabled in the same barns, and had their own VIPs. The Para athletes rode day after day in the middle of the weather. Haven't heard any of them complaining. I'm fact, they seemed very pleased with the event.

        The weather was hot - unseasonably according to the locals. Today it was in the 70s and cool. Lovely weather and a complete change from yesterday. The olympics are often held in very warm climates during summer months. Rio? Atlanta? Heck, the last Winter Olympics were too warm and had to have snow created. Compete on the day or scratch, don't compete, do less than ideal, then go online and complain. That's why it smacks of sour grapes.

        I would have started this same thread if a USA rider had been so unsportsmanlike. Liking a rider and respecting his or her achievements doesn't mean they walk on water and should have every act or word heralded.
        Actually Simone was not the first woman to win gold although it was very exciting all all props to her. Gail Greenough and Mr. T of Canada did And at the time when the top four riders had to switch horses.

        Comment


          Originally posted by neigh View Post
          For your reading pleasure, I suggest everyone visit the Horse-Canada website and read Pippa Cuckson's column. She is a British journalist and her columns are always an educational experience.

          Now, VIP news. Madeleine Winter-Schultze fell on an unsecured mat in the barn area and broke her leg. She is the sponsor of Gold medal winner Isabell Worth as well as several European jumper riders. So much for her WEG experience.
          Old "VIP news". Why so flippant about an accident (especially when you can't be bothered to spell names correctly)?.
          This happened on the 13th of September. It was an accident that could have happened anywhere. https://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/f...injured-at-weg
          Last edited by skydy; Sep. 25, 2018, 09:57 PM.

          Comment


            Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
            In Cuckson's screed, she said that "October is too late in the show season for WEG. The Lexington WEG ran from the last week in September to the First Week in October. (The FEI database has the whole competition happening in 1 week but that isn't possible).

            The Olympic Games were in Atlanta in heat and humidity--from July 19th to August 4th. It wasn't a fiasco, IIRC.

            The notion that only places with climates that suit the Northern Europeans on dates that suit the Northern Europeans can have horse sport is grossly unfair.
            The heat and humidity are a health issue for the horses more so than the riders. In fact, veterinarians have warned about exercising horses when the heat index is over a certain number (add the temperature and humidity to determine the heat index). This has nothing to do with holding WEG on dates or places with climates that suit the Northern Europeans. I believe a heat index between 150 and 180 is stressful and anything over 180 is considered dangerous. So, 85 degree temperatures combined with 65% or greater humidity is suitable for light work, not Olympic level competition.

            Comment


              Originally posted by Greyhorserider View Post

              Actually Simone was not the first woman to win gold although it was very exciting all all props to her. Gail Greenough and Mr. T of Canada did And at the time when the top four riders had to switch horses.
              Simone was indeed the first woman to win the WEG. When Gail won in '86, it was still called the World Championships. The title of WEG with all the disciplines held at the same time started in 1990. Semantics more than anything else.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Prime Time Rider View Post

                The heat and humidity are a health issue for the horses more so than the riders. In fact, veterinarians have warned about exercising horses when the heat index is over a certain number (add the temperature and humidity to determine the heat index). This has nothing to do with holding WEG on dates or places with climates that suit the Northern Europeans. I believe a heat index between 150 and 180 is stressful and anything over 180 is considered dangerous. So, 85 degree temperatures combined with 65% or greater humidity is suitable for light work, not Olympic level competition.
                This isn't how the heat index is calculated.

                Comment


                  I personally would love to watch all the disciplines and have at various times done so, but I only have so much time and money so it's true I'm unlikely to go to all of them at a single championship. Two solid weeks is a lot of horsing and some expensive tickets. When we went to Lexington, my group scored last minute tickets to the Reining freestyle and had a really great time, even though my friends knew nothing about Reining. However, I can also see that it could work to split it into two or three events held at separate locations.
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                  Comment


                    Heat index calculator :

                    https://www.thoughtco.com/calculatin...-index-3444309

                    Comment


                      Most importantly, competitions do not use the heat index, and haven't for a long time. They use the "wet bulb globe temp" or WBGT.

                      Heat index is measured in the shade so it's considered worthless in this context. WBGT takes into account temp, humidity, wind and cloud cover (all as measured in the sun). 31celsius calc (88 F IIRC) is generally the no go point.

                      For those of us living where this is an issue, NWS has a beta calculator

                      https://www.weather.gov/tsa/wbgt
                      Last edited by DMK; Sep. 26, 2018, 09:49 AM.
                      Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post

                        This isn't how the heat index is calculated.
                        Vineyridge, I am quoting from an article I read on how to calculate the heat index in terms safe riding conditions. The link to the heat index calculator states "To approximate the heat index value, plug your temperature and humidity values into this equation and solve."

                        Technically, you are correct, however, I don't think most people are going to perform a complex mathematical formula to determine the heat index. The bottom line is that the temperature combined with the relative humidity will determine if conditions are safe for horses to exercise. Your comment implied that somehow it was the Northern European horses and riders who were complaining about the weather conditions. I live in Texas, and as someone who is accustomed to riding in heat I can tell you that the heat and humidity were oppressive at TIEC during WEG and that during the afternoon the conditions were stressful for the horses. The afternoon temperatures were in the high 80's and the humidity exceeded 60% so knock yourself out doing the math.

                        Comment


                          So this is actually an interesting read https://inside.fei.org/sites/default...ORTING_DOC.pdf

                          COMPETITION MANAGEMENT IN THERMALLY STRESSFUL CONDITIONS The aim of the FEI, IOC and organising committees when competitions take place in potentially thermally stressful conditions is to make appropriate evidence-based adjustments to competition in order to ensure that a fair test takes place but that at the same time the risk of heat related illness is minimised. How this is approached varies between disciplines. . . . Jumping - education; provision of facilities for cooling; scheduling to avoid most thermally stressful times of the day; contingency for extreme conditions; no change to actual competition; enhanced veterinary monitoring of horses.

                          Also, it includes a table on page 11 (that doesn't want to copy and paste) that was developed for cross-country, but not until the WBGT hits 32-33 does it call it hazardous/call for modification of the competition, and over 33 is unsafe/requires further veterinary advice before continuing.

                          Comment

                            Original Poster

                            That is interesting. They did have the cooling tents next to the warm-up the entire time so that would satisfy the "provision of facilities for cooling."

                            Did any of the show jumping horses show medical signs of heat distress afterward? I don't recall any being pulled for reasons other than that the riders were far out of medal / qualification range. Some were tired on the last day, but after so many rounds over demanding courses, that's not surprising. To be honest, a few looked they could keep going for days!
                            "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Tiramit View Post
                              That is interesting. They did have the cooling tents next to the warm-up the entire time so that would satisfy the "provision of facilities for cooling."

                              Did any of the show jumping horses show medical signs of heat distress afterward? I don't recall any being pulled for reasons other than that the riders were far out of medal / qualification range. Some were tired on the last day, but after so many rounds over demanding courses, that's not surprising. To be honest, a few looked they could keep going for days!
                              That was my sense as well, I have not seen/heard any reports of show jumpers showing signs of distress, just fatigue. Definitely some tired ones on Sunday, but also some that looked like they were ready for Monday! And I suspect that, if the WBGT didn't reach the FEI threshold for modifying competition, the tv contracts dictated the schedule, particularly on Friday when it stayed as a 1:30 start time.

                              Comment


                                Exactly, they do have WBGT guidelines for competing (endurance was ultimately canceled due to being over 31 WBGT) and let's not forget CDE marathon was held on Saturday in that same weather, and only started an hour earlier.

                                Now they may have shortened Section A (I have not read that they did) and there was some talk about what to do with the transfer phase which was uphill, but both showed up in the official results (note to TIEC - you need to fix that uphill transfer). One team definitely looked like the heat got to them, but considering those horses work so very hard for so long (it's almost 17km of trotting) and one of the concerns was the superduperawesome footing for eventing might create a bit more drag on the vehicle, I KNOW they were paying a lot of attention to the WBGT. The conditions for competing in xc, endurance and marathon are much more stringent when it comes to heat for obvious reasons, and yet there we were, baking our asses off on Saturday having the best time...

                                (this is one case where hard footing is better... but I walked on the track after Bram went though and the surface didn't look like it had been cut into much, so hopefully there wasn't a lot of extra drag)
                                Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                Comment


                                  Also, if you read that document (I printed it out a few months ago, it's a great read!) it pretty much tells you the old "rinse and scrape/ice and scrape" methodology is no longer considered ideal.

                                  As long as you continuously apply water that is colder than the horse's current body temp, don't waste time scraping, you are just slowing down the cooling. Just keep applying ice/cold water, you only need to scrape when you are no longer applying water since at that point the horse will heat it up and cease cooling.

                                  I switched to just straight hosing, no scraping at home until I'm done cooling him off (I have ice cold well water) and at a driving trial about 3 days before WEG started in the same area, same delightful weather, I used two bags of ice spread out over about 8 buckets and the last one was vetrolin with alcohol, so the scraped stuff would have higher evaporative properties. My guy runs like a furnace (typical of the breed) but he cooled out a degree in 10 minutes and pulse/respiration was back in 5-6 minutes. Mind you he only did 6km, but then again it was his first time ever, so we felt WEG champeeyons
                                  Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                  Comment


                                    Originally posted by DMK View Post
                                    Exactly, they do have WBGT guidelines for competing (endurance was ultimately canceled due to being over 31 WBGT) and let's not forget CDE marathon was held on Saturday in that same weather, and only started an hour earlier.

                                    Now they may have shortened Section A (I have not read that they did) and there was some talk about what to do with the transfer phase which was uphill, but both showed up in the official results (note to TIEC - you need to fix that uphill transfer). One team definitely looked like the heat got to them, but considering those horses work so very hard for so long (it's almost 17km of trotting) and one of the concerns was the superduperawesome footing for eventing might create a bit more drag on the vehicle, I KNOW they were paying a lot of attention to the WBGT. The conditions for competing in xc, endurance and marathon are much more stringent when it comes to heat for obvious reasons, and yet there we were, baking our asses off on Saturday having the best time...

                                    (this is one case where hard footing is better... but I walked on the track after Bram went though and the surface didn't look like it had been cut into much, so hopefully there wasn't a lot of extra drag)
                                    The marathon start time was moved to be a bit earlier so they could finish before the afternoon heat. They did shorten Phase A but the transfer was the same as far as I heard. Most horses came into the vet box after A in pretty good shape - some higher temps and respiration rates than we saw in the spring test event, but no one in distress. The grooms were very quick to get the horses cooled down and the couple we had to re-temp were fine to start B. There were a few with extremely high respiration rates that I was concerned would have high temps, but they really didn't. Apparently there were extremely high temps at the end of B (over 107.5) but that's hearsay from the radios the vets had. We had a lot of ice and water available for cooling.

                                    However, the vet box area looked like a complete after thought. We were in a very constricted area that didn't have enough shade by the time the last teams were coming through. At one point, we had two teams, a water truck, and an ice truck in the very small area and a few close calls. The FEI officials were not happy with the layout and let it be known that they had major concerns about the area.

                                    After all the teams came through the vet box and we were released, I did get to watch one team as they were trotting between obstacles 5 and 6 (I think - never actually saw the course diagram) and they looked rough. They actually stopped at one point for their grooms to splash the horses off with cool water and then continued. It was hot and there was no shade anywhere for the horses to get a break.

                                    Comment


                                      I wonder if the high temp team was sandmann's or possibly the lippizaners (they were the only teams I saw that looked rough in 5/6)? Sandmann had the left wheeler slip and fall in 5 and when everything was pulled away, he was in no hurry to get up. That team had a rough go in 4 and I think it was more heat than slipping. That's probably why you saw a stopped team, the horse was down long enough to put a hold on the course, so probably more that than stopping to cool them off (no one finished outside the time and there isn't a lot of room for arbitrary stopping, although I saw one team who budgeted some walk time going into 6).

                                      I would say overall endurance and driving did get the shorter end of the preparation stick, but it was still pretty amazing (also I'm smiling a little at the tight quarters, although it really is a serious issue... but I called the victory gallop after cones "million dollar bumper cars")
                                      Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                      Comment

                                        Original Poster

                                        Originally posted by DMK View Post
                                        I wonder if the high temp team was sandmann's or possibly the lippizaners (they were the only teams I saw that looked rough in 5/6)? Sandmann had the left wheeler slip and fall in 5 and when everything was pulled away, he was in no hurry to get up. That team had a rough go in 4 and I think it was more heat than slipping. That's probably why you saw a stopped team, the horse was down long enough to put a hold on the course, so probably more that than stopping to cool them off (no one finished outside the time and there isn't a lot of room for arbitrary stopping, although I saw one team who budgeted some walk time going into 6).
                                        This happened about 40' in front of me. Clear view. The horse looked like he slipped out on the tight turn but then stayed down and waited until they moved everyone else. Looked a little like he was caught in something but I can't be positive because at that point they put screens up. They didn't ice the others while working on getting him free, just walked around. The horse finally got up after everything had been moved and seemed fine. They iced and watered him for a little bit before leading the entire team away. I probably have photos of the entire thing - rapid fire and a big zoom lens.

                                        The other thing about the marathon day is that they didn't have the advantage of the cooling tents and breaks in between. It seemed like many of the teams were had walk breaks later in the day rather than solely trotting, although I did see Chester moving along.
                                        "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right." -Henry Ford

                                        Comment


                                          Let's just say the darker horses had higher temps. One beautiful, but all dark horses, team in particular was the highest temps.

                                          The hold on course was long over by the time I got done at the vet box and could watch. The team I saw just paused by the buckets the grooms had ready for maybe 30 seconds then trotted off again.

                                          The two American teams that went later in the order, Misdee and Chester, were extremely fit and cooled out almost immediately in the 10 minute hold period. Misdee mentioned she'd been working hard on fitness since the test event in April.

                                          Comment

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