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Post your Feet Pictures! (AKA: Good Hoof Stuff Every Horse Owner Should Know!)

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  • Original Poster

    #41
    Regarding the comments on Cressy's feet....

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:


    Observing the striping in the hoof wall, you can see that they are "curved" looking. There is a slight dish in the foot...this means the horn tubles are not growing straight....toe wants to run forward and heel will go with it.
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I also notice that PrettyFilly's 3-yr old has dished feet in her last post - similar to Cressy's.

    So my question is - how does one fix this? You said the horn tubules aren't growing straight. I'm not entirely sure what that means anatomically..... but more importantly, I'm curious how you correct it. This is interesting.

    Do some horse's have a "dish" to their hoof by nature of their confirmation and it's "ok"? Is this always somethign that is a result of "improper shoeing" or maybe better said, feet getting unbalanced over time...?

    martha
    Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

    Comment


    • #42
      Some good questions Martha

      First, anatomically, if the horn tubules are not growing straight and in the direction they are supposed to, the hoof wall is weak. There is a lack of interlocking mechanism and spaces develop between the tubules.

      As far as some horses having dishes....generally never. Conformation does not directly attribute to the shape of the foot, but the shape of the foot can directly contribute to conformation (if that makes sense). For example, a horse with unbalanced, misaligned feet can be buck kneed, or severaly over at the knee. Unbalanced feet can cause muscle atrophy in the hip or shoulder areas. They can also cause back or other pain that is often attributed to a poor fitting saddle (that happens to, but this is about feet). Such back/muscle pain can cause altered gait, changes in stance, changes in muscle mass (increase or decrease).

      Essentially, a dish in the toe is nothing more than a flare. This presents a simple question: If you don't think a flare in the quarter is correct, then why would you think that one in the toe was?

      To remove the dish...in many cases it can simply be treated as a flare...remove the flare, the pressure is removed, the tubules start growing straight and the foot becomes healthier. Sometimes this requires aggressive backing up of the toe.

      In short, the foot should generally have a stright profile from the hairline to the ground. Any time there is a dish, there is a weakening in the foot. While there are of course exceptions...generally when there is a dish, there is pressure on the white line, the tubules and the coronary band. All of these things result in poor hoof health and loss of integrity. The best remedy is to remove the pressure...that is to shorten the toe and enhance breakover. But, it must also be remembered that none of this is the answer, if the rest of the foot isn't balanced or correctly aligned.
      December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
      Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

      Comment


      • #43
        Pretty Filly and others, can you post profiles of the feet as well as solar views? It is really hard to get any idea of how the feet are from the front...especially in a pic...lack of depth and no idea what's going on with the heel.

        Thanks
        December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
        Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #44
          Your critiques are in high demand, SLB.

          Don't forget to check out Java's new pics - anything I need to keep in front of my farrier next shoeing?

          I personally believe he still needs to get his heel back under him quite a bit more. Is this accurate?

          Anything else you might see that I'm missing?

          Anyone else have observations?



          Show me some *good* feet.

          martha
          Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

          Comment


          • #45
            Ok, since I don't know when the farrier (my husband) will have time to trim, I have gathered some pics to show you what a balanced foot looks like.

            First is a side view that shows a mustang foot and foot trimmed in a natural balance trim to emulate the mustang foot. The domestic foot is most likely prepared to apply a shoe to, thus the quarters are not relieved (or floated). Notice the straight horn tubules and hairlines, and the tight appearance of the healthy hoof wall. The mustang foot has a natural roll to the entire edge....sometimes called a mustang roll. This is from an abrassive terrain and doesn't happen on feet that are on softer ground. However, generally, the toe will be rolled and the quarters relieved regardless of the terrain. The domestic foot is a work in progress and therefore not perfect. Notice the bevel on the bottom of the toe...that is the one that I noted earlier as being cut from the bottom upward and is used to enhance breakover. It is emulating the toe roll on the mustang.
            Attached Files
            December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
            Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

            Comment


            • #46
              The next image is of the sole of a mustang...but it could be the sole of any correctly balanced foot.

              Notice how straight the bars are. The tight close white line and hoof wall parallel each other. The frog is robust and the toe is not far in front of the apex of the frog. The heels are set back to the widest part of the frog. (I think this is a rear foot, so it is a little more on the oval side than round as a front foot should be.)

              The bars are one of the best clues to how good your horse's foot is. They should be straight and upright, if they are curved or folded over, then there is something wrong with the foot. Curved is generally a good indication that there is contraction and/or underrun heels...the inward /forward pressure from the contraction/underrun forces the bars to bend. When the pressure is relieved, the bars straighten.
              Attached Files
              December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
              Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

              Comment


              • #47
                This final image is of a mustang hoof also. Note the concavity of the sole. The frog is robust and touches the ground. Recent research has revealed that it is essential for the frog to make gound contact or for it to be supported to emulate ground contact to promote good circulation and thus a healthy foot. The lateral cartilages in a foot that the frog doesn't touch the ground will be deminished and the frog will become overly enlarged and unhealthy in its attempt to make ground contact. The whitish rim that is next to the hoof wall is the toe callous; it helps bear the weight and protects the coffin bone. Note that the bars are lower than the hoof wall and are passive weight bearing...that is as the foot expands upon loading, the bars come in contact with the ground sharing some of the load with the frog, wall, and sole.
                Attached Files
                December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
                Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #48
                  Looking at feet now with a little bit of an obsession, I am starting to "see" things that aren't there, I imagine.

                  So I look at the first SLB image of the NB trim and the mustang foot. The NB trim, I see the heel sort of "long" and a little far forward.

                  But then, I think, "hmm most horse's look like that...."

                  So, I'm pretty sure I'm just looking for imaginary things, sort of like when you write a word 50 times and it looks like its spelled wrong on the 49th try.

                  I'm not sure how on earth I would expect a foot to look if I look at SLB's NB trim picture and imagine it "more like I thought it should be".

                  OK... so I rambled there, I guess looking for clarification that that is indeed the proper positioning for a heel....

                  But now I will post a picture.

                  So I'm considering my own situation, and lookign at SlB's pics.... and I put the two side-by-side.

                  To the best of my ability (I was pretty careful) the RED lines are the angle of the pastern and the PINK lines are hoof. The PINK lines match in angle exactly and are copied to the heel.

                  The RED lines on both horses, by my manual measurement are a tiny bit more upright then the foot, but this could be my error, they are off by a similar degree in my pictures.

                  The PINK lines are where I think I'm getting thrown off in my imaginary perfect hoof.

                  So the heel is a signifigantly steeper angle then the front of the hoof. I think in my mind I imagine the heel matching the angle in the front. This does not seem to be the case.... Clarifications for me?

                  Both horses seem to have a really similar angle to the heel design.... I checked it after I posted this picture.

                  So what does this say about Java's current foot? How does it differ from the Mustang's? What am I missing, if anything?

                  I do think, that it's possible Java's front angles still need to come up a degree to match his naturally uprightish confirmation. I think they are most surely not matching his as opposed the example mustang, which is negliable and probably just my drawing.... but I'm not positive. Perhaps another round of xrays in a couple months.

                  martha
                  Attached Files
                  Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Hey slb, great posts and pictures.
                    Regards J.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Hosshoer can I ask a question? And I actually took a foot picture a while ago and will try to find it. he's got funny feet, but they've been holding him up quite well for 14 yeras.

                      My horse (TB eventer) has fairly small hind feet (yes, with the fairly thin walls of your typical TB). They tend to, when he's shod, to almost twist underneath him - hard to describe, but if you look at the hoof straight on, instead of both sides being perpendicular to the ground, they seem to meet the ground at an angle. like / / rather than 1 1. My farrier prefers to make her own clips rather than use keg shoes that come with clips, and she puts the clips fairly far back. I think that this increases the likelihood of the hoof to not stay straight because the shoe twists off to the outside, and no longer supports the wall. She wants them back there, nearly on the sides of the hoof, not the edges of the front, because she thinks it makes the shoe more secure.

                      Once last summer I had to have a different farrier shoe him in a short-notice situation and she used St. Croix eventers with the clips already in place. They are fairly forward, if you're not familiar with that shoe. This shoe did not slide to the side even at the end of his 5-6 week shoeing period, and his hoof stayed straighter. I have not been able to convince my regular farrier (who except for complaining a lot about his thin-walled, slow growing TB feet, does a good job) that the St. Croix gave him better support and stayed put better than her own forged shoes.

                      Am I crazy? Your mention of a toe clip behind made me think to ask you this question -

                      I hope I'm not coming across as trying to bash my farrier - she is very good with the horses, her shoes don't come off, but she and I differ on where the clips do the best work.

                      Right now he's enjoying the deep snow barefoot.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        I don't have a picture of my horse's feet but I do have a question.

                        I know a lot of the time people shoe their horse in front but go barefoot in back. My horse has a problem with his back feet and he needs to have these special pads to raise his angles or else his hips and back gets sore. This is probably ridiculous, but I'm curious. Is it possible to just shoe in back and let the front go barefoot?

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Yes Martha, the heel on the NB trim is still underrun...I noted it as a work in progress...this was a first trim to realign and balance this foot. Didn't see a before, so don't know what all was done. Most horses should not look like that....although as you noted, most do.

                          I will reread your post and look at the feet then make comments in a bit.

                          Here is another natural trim. This hoof is much better in the heal area.
                          Attached Files
                          December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
                          Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #53
                            Oh fantastic... i like that pic. It is what i had in mind... it looks at first glance it looks like the heel angle matches the front of the foot angle.

                            I am assuming this is the goal.

                            Thank you. I will observe it some more, and maybe compare it with lines to my java foot so i can see the specifics....



                            Ok, I've observed with pictures. I think, based on what I'm learning... that this picture is a great side-by-side of what underrun heels means, compared to what's right. Correct?

                            If so, then I think this is what all of us more ignorant folks need to look at.

                            In fact, I believe the definition of underrun, based on what I'm learning, is specifically that the heels are a much more horizontal slope/angle then the hoof... as illustrated. If that's the case, that really clears this up for me at least as far as having an educated eye.

                            I actually have some more questions about the nature of underrun heels and how they become corrected... but I will wait for comments on the images and discussions above before I throw more into the pot...

                            martha

                            [This message was edited by mcmIV on Jan. 06, 2003 at 05:29 PM.]

                            [This message was edited by mcmIV on Jan. 06, 2003 at 05:32 PM.]
                            Attached Files
                            Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mcmIV:
                              So I'm considering my own situation, and lookign at SlB's pics.... and I put the two side-by-side.

                              To the best of my ability (I was pretty careful) the RED lines are the angle of the pastern and the PINK lines are hoof. The PINK lines match in angle exactly and are copied to the heel.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Looks like you did a farily good job placing the lines.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The RED lines on both horses, by my manual measurement are a tiny bit more upright then the foot, but this could be my error, they are off by a similar degree in my pictures.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              I will address this at the bottom of the post.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The PINK lines are where I think I'm getting thrown off in my imaginary perfect hoof.

                              So the heel is a signifigantly steeper angle then the front of the hoof. I think in my mind I imagine the heel matching the angle in the front. This does not seem to be the case.... Clarifications for me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              This is true. The object is not to match the angles...this is where we run into trouble.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Both horses seem to have a really similar angle to the heel design.... I checked it after I posted this picture.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              I think that is because of the difference in the angles that the pics were taken at...yours is a bit more head on then the NB trim pic. So, in my estimation, if your pic were at the same angle, you would see that Java's heel is still much further forward than in the one I posted.

                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>So what does this say about Java's current foot? How does it differ from the Mustang's? What am I missing, if anything?

                              I do think, that it's possible Java's front angles still need to come up a degree to match his naturally uprightish confirmation. I think they are most surely not matching his as opposed the example mustang, which is negliable and probably just my drawing.... but I'm not positive. Perhaps another round of xrays in a couple months. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                              Ok, here's where I tell you why we don't match the angles. In the NB trim, the trim is approach ed from the bottom only. That means that the trim is done to the live sole plane. The attention is on finding the true apex of the frog, determining where the tip of P3 resides, and a few other landmarks...like heels back to the widest part of the frog, 1/3 front and 2/3 back of widest part of foot, straight horn tubules, straight hairline (no bumps or dips).

                              How does this work? Once the foot is balanced accordingly, everything naturally comes into alignment and stays in alignment during movement...as evidenced by x-ray research. The foot is dynamic, therefore we must consider that correct alignment is maintained throughout movement as well.

                              Considering Java's feet at this time....the two biggest things that I see wrong are 1)nails in the holes past the widest part of the foot...it can never open up and become a more natural shape as long as it is held in place by nails. Since there is a consensus that the majority of expansion and movement takes place behind the widest part of the foot, it is also considered that there shouldn't be any nails there. The shoe will not fall off is correctly applied. 2)The toe and heels need to be aggressively moved back. Doing a little at a time will never accomplish the job...well maybe in several years if you are lucky. Checking the angles on the hoof wall and the pasturn will also never get the job done. The foot doesn't have to exactly match the pasturn angle because sometimes the unbalanced foot has created a false pasturn angle. By addressing the correct balance and "natural" alignment, somethimes sloping or upright pasturns are changed to more normal postions. The alignment is in center of the bones (P 1, 2, and 3) and should be aligned so that the joints have even pressure on them.

                              Hope this makes sense?
                              December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
                              Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                5mgn...generally shoeing backs only is not something that can be done. The problem is that when a shoe is applied...even correctly...there is some change in gait. Often if a horse were to be shod in the rear only, the result would be interfenence or overreach...stepping on the front heels or clipping the front legs.

                                Do you know exactly what the problem is?
                                December 13 - National Day of the Horse!
                                Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  slb, I looked at cresida's feet, and I don't see the underrun heel you are talking about. I see what appears to be a good amount of heel growing parallel to the front of the hoof. Quite honestly, the pictures you posted of the mustang feet look underrun to me.

                                  I am confused. Can you enlighten?

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Hilary,back in 98 or 99 I was in Virginia for shoeing clinic with Craig Tranka, current president of the American Farriers Association,American Gold Farrier Team member forever and World Champion Farrier at Calgary. So Craig is somewhat up on shoeing. Anyway in one of the live shoeing demos he made a back shoe for this TB and used a toe clip. Lot's of discussion and questions about it from the group of farriers. Hardly anyone in the clinic has used a toe clip as much as I have based on what I see in a foot. It's not for 'em all, but ya know I think it works quite well on certain feet. Craig stessed to us to be creative and not get stuck in a closed frame of mind and to try different shoeing techniques and see what works and look real hard at how the horse is going afterwards. If you don't think it's working try something else.

                                    And the question about just shoeing the back feet. Try it. See what happens. How about putting the shoe on backwards and leave the toe open with sorta of a bar shoe at the back of the foot. The angle gets changed right off the get go and maybe with the extra steel out the back it will slow down the back foot so it does not hit the front. Or maybe take some of the quick set equithane and use that as a shoe. Heck I could run this bill up enough to get a set of braces for my kids.
                                    Good Luck J.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Do you know exactly what the problem is? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                      He has really bad angles in back and his heels are really low and that changes the way he works off his stifles and then we get all sorts of problems. He used to be used for saddleseat so I don't know the way they shoe them has anything to do with his problems. Although if that is the case I think eventually his feet will grow more "correctly". It is just he has such nice, healthy, strong feet it seems a shame not to let him go barefoot, at least in the winter.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lady cottington:
                                        slb, I looked at cresida's feet, and I don't see the underrun heel you are talking about. I see what appears to be a good amount of heel growing parallel to the front of the hoof. Quite honestly, the pictures you posted of the mustang feet look underrun to me.

                                        I am confused. Can you enlighten? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                        The first mustang picture she posted - she clarified a second time (after I compared it to Java's foot) that it was a "work in progress". So they are a little underrun if you read her second post about it.

                                        slb posted another picture later on that is a more correct foot, look back a few posts.

                                        martha
                                        Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #60
                                          slb - thanks for your explanation. I will have him take the 4th nail out next time, it's the only holding the traction nail for ice. I talked him into it the last time... I need some good traction in this ice or I'll end up with a busted ankle, but good feet.

                                          I will also push for more toe off - how agressive can one be with toe removal as a general rule? The horse *can* bleed if cut back too far, right?

                                          So basically - if I have this correct, the foot will grow differently - grow into a proper heel like you last posted a picture of.... if the foot is simply trimmed "balanced"? Easier said then done, right? But good knowledge.

                                          Thanks to you and hoss and any other knowledgeables for all your time spent on this thread - I think it might be enlightening a lot of people.

                                          martha
                                          Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish & the NervousNellieWorryWart* cliques!

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