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An owner's bill of rights: Letter in this weeks COTH

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  • #41
    No, nobody ever wants to say WHO is doing this stuff, do they? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

    But I understand - if she didn't directly ask you for a commission, a call to remind you that she posted the picture is legit, so I wouldn't mention her name at this point either. After all, someone could say to you, "I saw your horse on the website and I'd like to see him" and so she's just reminding you. Let us know if she does ask for a cut, though.

    Since I'm in the same area I was just wondering if it was the same person I knew.


    • #42
      OK...where is the Quentin Riding Club? From other posts, it sounds like a fun time was had by all there recently!
      June [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]
      \"The world\'s greatest achievements often happen on the edge of chaos\"


      • #43
        If you take the Lebanon exit off the turnpike it is about 5 miles north on route 72. You must join us for the next show (of course that won't be til May [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ) We did have a great time and next time we will be more organized. We need to make those VA people jealous....no more Mosebys gossip, we will start our own Tavern Stand or Bluebird Inn outings!!!!
        There are 3 A rated shows....Blue Rock, St. Christohers, Fall Show and the C rated PJA (but the jumper money is better here than at many shows that are A rated and the Exhibitors party couldn't get any tackier or more fun !

        HMMMMMMM, maybe they should hire me for their PR person. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]


        • #44
          Did the buyer see the horse at any time on the website and the flyer just gave her the incentive to try the horse then the trainer should get a part commission. If the buyer had no knowledge of the website no commission.
          If the trainer is a nice person and you feel bad make it an early christmas present not a commission.
          A pussycat of a horse with a chewed off tail won the triple crown, The Cubs won the world series and Trump won the Presidency.
          Don't tell me 'It can't be done.'


          • #45
            Thank you for posting the article!!

            While I agree with all the Dos and Don'ts that were mentioned, I have to wonder why someone would ALLOW themselves to be so in the dark as to their animals that any of those would happen? I'm not looking down on anyone as I've been the person that these types of things have happened to. But the longer I spent in the industry (as owner and competitor), the more *I* have sought out knowledge and assimilated it for my use. Most of the items on that list ARE common sense business practices... but why would they be a major problem if people (the customers) did in fact insist that those practices were followed? That they were treated with the respect they deserved and yes, that they had the knowledge to find fault with any system that wasn't up to snuff.

            I love owners and try to give them as much credit as possible, but really.... if they don't want to be "taken" by the next sham-artist (whether in or out of the horse industry) then they should take some responsibility for their own investments and actions and learn about said subject. Otherwise it becomes yet another example of how our society is quickly moving SOOOO far away from personal responsibility and into "it's their fault" crap.

            If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

            "All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy
            "Of course it's hard. It's supposed to be hard. It's the Hard that makes it great."

            "Get up... Get out... Get Drunk. Repeat as needed." -- Spike


            • #46
              So if you want to buy a car, new or used, there are a number of books, magazines, and websites one can use to learn about buying a car and about the specific make and model you want to purchase including dealer markups.

              Now just where can a potential horse buyer go to research how to buy a horse? Does Consumer Reports test horses? Is there a Kelly blue book for horses? I don't think just talking to someone about how it is done is very informative or useful and it certainly isn't research.


              • #47
                AM, I was asking myself the same question. It's not so easy to get educated about the horse business. Unfortunately, experience is usually the teacher.

                ~ Even on a fast machine, an infinite loop takes a while to run.
                Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.


                • #48
                  Well, hopefully newbies end up here so WE can tell 'em. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]
                  'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
                  - Pablo Picasso


                  • #49
                    they get in the business due to their children and even "well known" trainers take these people for a ride. And please don't be naive enough to think that a Trainer who's been "caught" at being unethical will thank the owner and wish them well. Many to everything they can to black ball these people. I've heard many people say that they are almost afraid to do this for fear it will prevent their kids from getting another trainer or WORSE ...some of the trainers are also judges or know them well.

                    I've had people tell me they were TOLD by the trainer that a 20% commission is STANDARD! Is that set by the Feds or what? They also tell them it's o.k. for them to get a commission from both sides....in some states it's not legal and in some states it's not legal to say up front this is happening. How many trainers do say this?

                    And if anyone thinks the pharmaceutical industry doesn't do well by the show circuit - you haven't seen the "orders" that large training facilities put in before they depart the Northeast for Florida every year!!!!

                    Mrs. Kagen doesn't strike me as a person that isn't intelligent - she perhaps thought (erroneously) that people who work with or around horses are all really ethical, caring and honest people. WRONG! I think the Insurance scandal of a few years should have shown all of us that many of them could care less if the horse was alive or dead or how it died! A sad reality - but reality just the same.


                    • #50
                      [QUOTE]Originally posted by Erin:
                      The website is NOT me! I have my hands full just managing you people. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]




                      • #51
                        Actually, Beans, Ms Kagen strikes me as extremely intelligent. That was a very well written letter. And she's no newbie either, apparently. But before we had this avenue of communication (thank you, COTH) people weren't talking to each other. So it was a dirty, little secret. Plus people were scared of reprisals.

                        But in the 20 years I rode with my old trainer, he NEVER did that to me. And I bought 3 horses during that time period. And came to him originally with another. He knew I went to sales and bought horses. And he knew that I probably had a better eye for a green prospect than he did. I was never told to get rid of a horse or that I owed a commission on a horse I found.

                        Now, of course, since I don't show and have no plans to, short of a lottery win, I don't care whose toes I step on. I expect professional behavior from everyone I deal with and having no problems firing anyone who exhibits unprofessional or unethical behavior. And I WILL tell them why. After all, I am the customer.
                        'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
                        - Pablo Picasso


                        • #52
                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Applesauce:
                          Hang on folks. I'm going to type the sucker out and post it. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]

                          "Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                          thanks so much Applesauce
                          Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                          The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”


                          • #53
                            I think that's what beans was saying sleepy - that Ms. Kagan is intelligent.

                            I agree with tle - I think it is up to people to educate themselves. There are plenty of resources available including our wonderful bulletin board.


                            • #54
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now just where can a potential horse buyer go to research how to buy a horse? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>"A Horse of Your Own" is a good place to start. And there have been several good articles in PH.

                              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).


                              • #55
                                First, Applesauce, thank you SO much for typing that out!

                                Next, Ms. Kagen, wherever you are, THANK YOU. She had the balls to spell out and sign her name to some very legitimate issues about the business. Amazing!

                                Now....as to those who say "who would be so dumb" I think there are a lot of issues here. One is that if you are new to horses or hope to learn about horses, there really is no central place for that. This BB (and many thanks for it!) is a good start, but I was "into" horses for over 6 years before I found it, and I was already a fairly educated owner. Why? Because I'm not into doing huge shows and never thought about the Chronicle as offering such a forum.

                                Many areas have few if any tack shops or farms listed in the phone book. And that's still where people are likely to start looking at the horse world. The press doesn't really do anything on the topic, most trainers don't advertise in conventional consumer outlets, so where do people go? And if they find a place, how do they know what is and isn't "good" or "standard" or even OK?

                                If the hapless newbie doesn't have a computer or doesn't spend a lot of time on the 'net, that's another strike. And it's easy to say go to the library but very few libraries have an extensive equestrian selection. Just some things to think about...


                                • #56
                                  <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tle:

                                  While I agree with all the Dos and Don'ts that were mentioned, I have to wonder why someone would ALLOW themselves to be so in the dark as to their animals that any of those would happen?

                                  Because we TRUSTED the trainer.

                                  We thought this person who taught riding lessons was trustworthy. The barn owner trusted her, too, and made the suggestion to go through her. In our case she was caught. How? Because the barn owner followed up by asking me if we went to look at the horse. I said no, 4K is too high; barn owner said nothing to me but went home and called the owner herself and found out the truth, fired the trainer, and told me and the owner what had happened. In the meantime another person bought the horse and that match ended up being a great one.

                                  When we ended up buying our horse, as I said before, the new trainer sat down with us and we talked everything out up front. However, having learned my lesson, I also talked price directly with the seller and of course I will ALWAYS do this. We ended up buying this horse and the seller's price was exactly what the trainer represented. But it was trusting someone we thought we knew, someone we thought valued us, that could've led to us being burnt.

                                  Horses are worth whatever someone will pay for them. Since for most of us, horses are a personal love, we just don't look at it like a business deal like buying a car, but of course that is foolish - it's not a business deal for us but it is for those we are dealing with so we have to get into a business mentality.


                                  • #57
                                    Whew! Just got back from looting, pillaging, generally stealing everyone blind...you know, being a (gasp) professional!

                                    I'm sure some of you have had bad experiences buying and selling horses, but don't assume I'm a crook because I make a living in this crazy business! (I do file 1099's, Beans!)There are crooks in every business...can we say ENRON? But, please don't summarily bash us all. I have run across some aweful owners in my time too. Everything they own must be worth 1 million cause so and so sold such and such horse for that and theirs isn't as pretty as mine! Let's say customer "A" wants to sell their horse. They can't...so call me for help. They want 10K to them. The horse is iffy at that price, and definately won't support my 15% commission on top, and realistically, not the buyer's trainers commission/finders fee either.Now where do we go from here? Do I find a buyer for them at their price and not make money? This is MY living after all. Or does the owner take less for their horse so it can get sold? I'm sure a lot of people think the owner is the only one who should profit in this instance. Pretty interesting question huh?!

                                    Now what happens if I find a horse in someone's back yard for 3K. It is adorable and easily worth 10K to one of my customers. Do I tell it's owners that they aren't asking enough money for their horse or do I buy it, re-sell it to my customer and make the profit?! What exactly is the ethical thing to do? I think ya'll can see how this business is very complex. That said... the buyer should be aware, as should the seller. Try to make informed decisions and find someone trustworthy to help you. We ARE out there and you can get a mess of trouble on your own too! Not every seller will tell you the truth about their horse either.


                                    • #58
                                      I am not questioning your right to make a living Barnie. There is a big difference in buying a horse because you have an eye for what will sell and turning it around quickly and taking a client to see a horse that is priced less than what you would like said client to spend and jacking the price up. The case you mentioned is borderline. If you actually buy the horse and then sell it, fine. If the horse doesn't change hands until your client writes the check - to you - then yeah, I have a problem with a 333% commission.

                                      PS - I already outlined what I thought the scenario should be. Horse gets sold for x amount, whatever trainer can get for it. Buyer writes check to me the seller. I write trainer a check for 10% of x dollars.
                                      'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
                                      - Pablo Picasso


                                      • #59
                                        Oh, c'mon, barnie, who the **** said you were a crook? and who bashed all professionals? I for one gave an example of ONE SPECIFIC crooked trainer and then told of a trustworthy one with whom I do business.

                                        What's complicated about this? If the owner's price floor is 10K, the buyer either pays the price + the commission due or the owner realizes the horse won't sell at that price through a trainer charging commission and finds his price on his own or else he lowers the price.

                                        No complications about the 3K horse either. If you are searching for a horse for a specific customer and the seller is only asking 3K, then you tell your customer "I found a horse for 3K."
                                        Amazing that that's an ethical dilemma! You're hired to find a horse, you find a horse. What's the problem here? Don't you see how treasured you would be to your customer?!

                                        Now, if that specific customer for whom you are searching declines this horse, yes, by all means, you buy it for 3K, take it home and sell it for whatever you wish. That's fair. Say I'm your customer and I pass on the 3K horse & you buy it. 2 months later I'm looking at it in your barn & decide it's a pretty cool horse. If you tell me the price is $10K, sorry, Anne, you missed your chance to buy it at 3, I will agree with you - I missed my chance, you took a chance, you bought the horse at it's asking price and deserve to profit. But if I hire you to find me a horse and you find a good one at a cheap price and decide to TRIPLE it's price, that's not fair.


                                        • #60
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> jrjumpermom
                                          posted Sep. 05, 2002 11:33 AM ?
                                          Looks like we sold our c/a jumper (she's vetting this pm). We got a call shorty after the girl tried her from an old trainer.
                                          About a year ago she asked if we wanted to post a pic on a sales web site. We said, sure. We gave her a pic, she scanned it and that's it. Well, thru the grapevine she hears we have found a buyer (by ourselves... we put flyers up at a show and some people saw her and liked her....). She calls to remind us that last year she put this horse on the web ( it is not her site....and not one that costs for the listing).Now, the people have never heard of trainer, came with flyer in hand at the show. We set up time to try horse etc.
                                          Do YOU think we owe this trainer anything? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          The solution is to thank the person/trainer profusely for their thoughtfulness in posting that photo 'so long ago' and saying ' it is such a shame that the horse didn't sell through that site'.

                                          Ask them for the link to the site so you can post sold on the horse or if they would 'be so kind' as to list horse as sold next time posting there. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] A little bit of naivity can go a long way. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] Make sure you mention how hard it was doing up posters and placing them all over the countryside ... and maybe gush a little about what a lovely home the horse is going to have with this lady who found one of 'our posters' at the horse show!!!!