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  • #41
    Like many here, I have had many gay friends due to my association from an early age w/ horses. Later I added musical, dance and theater friends.

    Oddly enough, the one who sticks out in my mind was the man who acted like a closet gay (SO's were never given a sex, always referred to as "they", hung out at a gay bar (but NEVER admitted going there) and was way too concerned w/ his build and his gym time was sacred. Having left my closest gay friend in NY, I was looking to fill this void. So hoping to open up dialog, and because I'd been taught to be direct, I asked *Brent* if he was gay. His response, "It would be so much easier if I were." Over the next few years, I learned that it probably would've been. I believe he was hetrosexual, but absolutely unable to have a relationship with a woman for many reasons. He also was a very devout Episcopalian which may have contributed to his inability to date men. He was clearly attractive to gay men, but inside himself, couldn't go there. Being a former child theater actor, a musician, built like an ad for "Muscle Beach" people EXPECTED him to be gay. I know one housemate who was terribly in love with him but had another partner because Brent would not go to bed with him.

    My point for what it's worth: You can't sleep with apples if you're hardwired to be attracted to oranges, no matter how much you look like an apple.
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
    Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

    "Life is merrier with a terrier!"


    • #42
      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
      First there is nothing that says it is wrong to believe in a literal translation of the Bible. It only becomes wrong when the people who believe that try to impose their ideas on other people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      So true, Snowbird. Couldn't agree with you more!


      • #43
        Maybe I'm just in a BAD mood (ask WishMeLuck) but why is this subject now OK with a name change?

        Sorry, just a little touchy right now.....

        EEEK, anyway, here's another thought as to general acceptance of homosexuality. A girl who recently worked with me asked me once how I felt the general reaction of our customers would be if they realized she was a lesbian. I told her that I thought 99% of the adults and kids would be cool about it since no-one batted a eyelash when they met my BF. (14 years my elder and black, I'm white) She thought that an interacial couple was a poor barometer as nobody would want to be labeled a racist. I still think I was right about OUR situation, but who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it's simply a matter of time?


        • #44
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
          who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it's simply a matter of time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

          It's too bad that that's a valid question. It's unfortunate that these are concerns in this society. Are other societies as judgmental about personal relationships and lifestyles?


          • #45
            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
            who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it's simply a matter of time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

            Yes. When I was little (60's) black/white dating NOT an option; it was a daring movie of the week in the early 70's, it was something adults clammed up about when little ones walked in. Trust me, they were NOT talking positively about this. Now, NBD. It takes time, lots of it, to overcome stereotype and bigotry.

            Again, in the 60's men weren't 'gay' they were 'queer' and 'queer'= flamboyant queen and all lesbians were butch or bull dykes and we all knew what they looked like. The idea of a "macho" gay was unknown by many until Patricia Nell Warren's wonderful book "The Front Runner" (Jair- you HAVE read this right?) published in 1974/5? This is a movie Hollywood STILL hasn't made although it's been greenlighted at least 2x that I know of. This being an Olympic year, it should've been pushed through production, but again, the relationship between a track coach & his Olympic caliber runner is deemed too sensational for release. So IMHO you and your BF are definitely reaping the harvest that was watered by millions of tears. Acceptance for gays and lesbians comes slowly but it WILL come.

            Personal note to anyone who hasn't told their family. My cousin came out at Thanksgiving in a long distance call to the family get-together (Gloria was out of town). She THOUGHT she was talking only to her cousin, but unknown to her mom & aunt had picked up the extentions. Needless to say, it was QUITE the topic of conversation afterwards, and having all those different points of view being expressed all at once allowed everyone to vent, be supported, be educated, and while I recall the turkey hitting the table an hour or so late, we left that night with the majority of bigotry behind us and resigned acceptance reigned.
            ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
            Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

            "Life is merrier with a terrier!"


            • #46
              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
              Maybe I'm just in a BAD mood (ask WishMeLuck) but why is this subject now OK with a name change?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              Actually, the original thread was not deleted by either me or Weatherford... whoever started it must have deleted their first post. If the first post in a thread is deleted, the whole thread goes. (Don't ask me why... the UBB gods seemed to think this was a good idea.)

              I didn't even see the original thread. I came home from the barn to several email messages asking me to delete/edit it, but by the time I looked, it was gone.

              At any rate... I don't know what the original thread was discussing, but I have to say that this is one of the most interesting and thought-provoking threads I've ever seen on this board, and I'm very happy to see it being dealt with in such a respectful and logical manner. Please carry on! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


              • #47
                I just have to say, I am SO proud of you guys! To take on a topic such as this one is a VERY hard thing to do and you guys took it head on, without any name-calling, fist-fighting, etc. I am glad that you guys have the openness and willingness to discuss this topic with all the points of view being presented. Erin, give all these people a blue ribbion! (Just Kidding!) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

                Just for your information, I know a LOT of gay people that don't know the front end of a horse from the back, but they are some of the nicest people, I've ever met. What they do in their private life is and never will be my business. I am glad, that for the most part, the horse world has been an accepting place for these people I call "friends". They have discoved the one true love of my life and that is: the horse. Nothing else sould matter.
                These are just my thoughts and if I offended you, I am sorry. All I wanted to do was prise you on a job well done. That's all.
                OK, I'll stop rambling now. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]


                • #48
                  Not that anyone should care about my opinion, but I have to say that I've been so impressed with the sensitivity, candor and openness shown by the posters on this thread. That this topic can be discussed like this is a very good message, I think. One of the reasons why my husband did not wish my son involved with riding (or figure skating, or gymnastics) was because of it's reputation for having a preponderance of gay involvement. What I have tried to communicate to him over the years, is that a specific environment was not going to "make" our son gay. However, I would like him to be in an environment (whatever that may be) that he will be comfortable being whatever he is! That being said, I have to say that my husband has allowed our son to be involved in any sport/activity he wishes. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here. I apologize if I'm not communicating this thought very well. . .

                  [This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 07-14-2000).]
                  \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E


                  • #49
                    (Glad you got it, Jair.)
                    Sportponies Unlimited
                    Athletic Thoroughbred crosses for the highly motivated, smaller rider.


                    • #50
                      Erin and Peptalk and Duffy are right...sure wish we could/could have discuss/ed all topics this way!!
                      Tinwhistle Farm


                      • #51
                        You're the best Pwynn!

                        As for you Kryswyn - the "Front Runner" is one of my all time favourite books. Its actually the first book I ever read that had gay characters in it and OMG did it hit home! It made me cry at the end. Its the only book that's done that to me. (Phar Lap is probably the only movie that made me cry: how can you forget the end "Oh Bobby, get up Bobby! Please get up!" as poor Phar Lap falls over...)

                        I had always hoped they'd make a movie out of it - never knew it had been considered! Tell me more.

                        I can't say enough about how much I have enjoyed the thoughts from everyone on this post - I was actualy eager to come into work this morning to see how the thread had developed overnight! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Duffy, I understand where your husband is coming from - funnily enough some of my gay friends think my horsey stuff is sissy! Grrrrrr I'd like them to try it once and see how THEIR legs feel after!

                        Pacificsolo - no one here would think of you as a "close-mouthed biggot". Your religious views were very well presented and I found them thought provoking.
                        You Strike Me Still


                        • #52
                          If we could all understand that there are different opinions by other people on every topic in the world that would be a start.

                          If we could all accept that the different opinion doesn't indicate that the person is demented, evil or criminal that would be a start.

                          If we could isolate the point of view and the issues from the people who propose them that would be a start.

                          If God had intended that we all be clones of each other he wouldn't have created so many different people.

                          It is really our attempt to homogenize the world that causes the violence and disputes.I find it so interesting that while we expect all people to be alike, think alike and act alike we are so devoted to saving even the remotest little variant in all other species.

                          I'll bet that the same people who want to protect some little wood turtle from extinction cannot comprehend the need for the same difference between people and want to "modify" that behavior. Are "tree huggers" equally sensitive to the biological differences between people? Do they have a priority list of approval for which differences are most acceptable?
                          http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                          • #53
                            I think religion scares me even more then the intolerant ways that people label and treat each other.

                            I by no means am very knowledgable about the topic of discussion and I think I am only a little more versed in religion. I cant help thinking that it has been in the name of religion that many people are hurt for thousands of different reasons. With that said, it would be unwise for me to attempt to communicate the many confusing contradictions of religion. I respect and envy anyone that is able to come to peace by accepting which ever religious credo and I suppose that part of my confusion comes from believing many parts of a lot of different and even conflicting ones. The way I see it, there is too much human interpretation involved in religion - why would a tolerant god make make loving another person conditional? There are huge holes in these thoughts so dont crucify me (little play on word there) [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

                            Getting back to the topic on hand. Cant explain the twin thing except to say that there are many different genes that are expressed at different leves for different characteristics and of course there is the environment.

                            Do you think that part of societies lack of acceptance comes from the very basic (learned) instinct to procreate and continue the species? Humans have moved beyond hunting, gathering and breeding but some of our thought patterns are stuck. Logically, with our degree of development, it isnt necessary for all people to replace themselves with another. Our survival rate is better then the cave man times. I think if you look at patterns of nature (argument everyone uses to justify something as being "right") there are plenty of species where different roles are carried out by different members and not everyone produces offspring. Am I making sense? Trying to explain why this argument for being against homosexuality is flawed.

                            If we were to extend this type argument to my need to care for horses (rather then a food producing item) - it would stand that it is a pretty insignificant role, yet it is the very core of my existance. I think that root of our existance and the reason we are here is to LOVE - and it is achieved in many ways.

                            Whew, enough of that. Sorry for getting carried away. felt like I was on to something but Im not quite there yet. need some more thought (and tequila for added stimulation!)


                            • #54
                              I'm very interested in hearing more about the religious taboos to homosexuality. PacificSolo and Snowbird - you've both piqued my interest. I've heard others state that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, but I've never been satisfied with the interpretive arguments purporting to substantiate this assertion.

                              I also should note that I've never been a proponent of literal translation in any vein, whether it concerns religious literature or the U.S. Constitution. I'm also not a religious person (raised Catholic, but balancing on the abyss of atheism) but I'm fascinated by religious history.

                              On another front, I've also read that there are documented instances of homosexual behavior in various animal species. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this theory/fact(?), but I know I have heard it frequently espoused. In addition, there seems to be some fairly strong evidence coming to light that homosexuality (and likewise, heterosexuality)is genetically determined.

                              It would appear, therefore, that the only thing "unnatural" about homosexuality is society's condemnation of it. It is an exercize in futility to oppose things that just are.
                              Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.


                              • #55

                                You must be a special kind of lawyer (is that right, you're a lawyer?) to be able to say everything I was TRYING to express but in about half the words. Isnt it usually the other way around?

                                I am positive that we have had mares that were homosexual and I have heard about other examples from nature. Im going to try to find some and satisfy my curiosity.


                                • #56
                                  Difficult as it can be to admit, yes, I'm a lawyer, Retrophish. Worse than that, I'm a Washington, D.C. lawyer!!! And if you need an example of "lawspeak" just reread that second sentence in my post --eeegaads! I wrote that multisyllabic goo?! That's what I get for writing this stuff off the top of my head instead of taking the time to compose it properly.

                                  I'll be curious to see what you turn up in your research. Keep us posted. This is a fascinating discussion.

                                  BTW, I'm going to share a secret; its us lawyers that make up all the lawyer jokes.

                                  [This message has been edited by Inverness (edited 07-14-2000).]
                                  Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.


                                  • #57
                                    Thank you Goodmudder...all I was stating was that names should not be named!!!! I have been involved in the horse world for over 25 years and I have NO problem with anyone's sexuality.....just have a little common courtesy for people (ex:Scott Stewart)...geez!!!!!!!! <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goodmudder:
                                    AnnFs: If you read my post on the former thread, I never suggested that the topic should not be discussed by whomever cares to discuss it - but I believe that people should be able to make their own choices as to their own names being used - a common courtesy, I would have thought. No, I'm not prejudiced - just trying to be thoughtful of individuals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


                                    • #58
                                      <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inverness:
                                      It would appear, therefore, that the only thing "unnatural" about homosexuality is society's condemnation of it. It is an exercize in futility to oppose things that just are.


                                      Well said Inverness. How true. Sad, but true. "Man fears that which he doesn't understand". As is the case in so many other issues. I can't help thinking that is the root of racism too - the first white people to see a darker skinned person were scared as they had never before seen someone like that and considering the old tradition that white and black equals good and evil, I often wondered if those "first contact" people automatically assumed black skin = evil. I could be way off base here. But I have often pondered that. Lord help us if an alien ever did arrive...

                                      Back to religion and homosexuality. I find this intriguing, not being religious myself. I too have heard many times that I am off to hell because I "lie with man instead of woman", but have never been shown any religious text to support this. I know the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (I've been labelled something along those lines before by a religious fanatic type once but won't repeat the words here) but am curious about where else this is mentioned in religious texts? In the past there have been many religious groups opposing the gay lifestyle to the point of advocating "gay bashings" that I want to know where they are coming from with all this hatred.

                                      It is horrible to think that there are still some countries in this world that throw people in prison (or worse) for being gay. Or others being murdered because of what God they beleive in.

                                      Maybe those aliens will take me with them...
                                      You Strike Me Still


                                      • #59
                                        But Good to Go, that would mean you're only 27 years old right?....NOT!


                                        • #60
                                          Retrophish, I too appreciate your direct questions in your earlier post.

                                          As Jair noted at the end of one of his posts, some folks have indeed "chosen" to be gay. Of course, plenty of nuances permeate that statement, because "being gay" can mean the sexual acts and/or the social identity and/or the political stance, etc. The choice may come from disillusionment with the opposite sex, as Jair described, or from political orientation (e.g., women should not depend on
                                          men in any aspect of their lives), or from the observation that being gay is kind of cool.

                                          Now, I'm sure not trying to speak for the gay community any more than Jair was, but to me, distinguishing between whether homosexuality is "chosen" or "genetically determined" or, for that matter, environmentally determined (nomination vs. nature vs. nurture) can undermine tolerance. It simply should not matter why a person is gay. Homosexuality is fine, period.

                                          While I understand and to some degree share the scientific interest in such a question, many folks seem to have decided that if we can prove homosexuality is as outside one's control as, say, left-handedness, then homosexuality should be accepted as a valid orientation. Shouldn't it be accepted regardless?

                                          [This message has been edited by Pepper (edited 07-14-2000).]