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  • #41
    It seems to me that the first paragraph was simply to give examples of politically (political??)correctness. No one here is comparing horse shows to strip searches. Give me a break.

    Also, TJO mentions in the initial post the idea of "flexiblle striding." There was just a huge thread about this exact issue, entitled "should strides count." Frankly, I don't have time to read the whole thread, but from what I understand, some people think that horses should not be penalized for adding, as long as they make it look good. That is a great example of what is being discussed in this thread. If judges did not count strides the hunter divisions would be seriously dummied down. Fortunately I don't think this will ever happen.
    "Owning a barnyard animal is not as easy as it looks on the internet."-Rob and Big


    • #42
      Bgoosewood: Sorry you had such a bad experience with dodgeball. What type of ball did you guys use? The one we had was about as harmless as they get, not much worse than getting hit with a foam ball, imho. By the way, I was not one of the most athletic kids in elementary school. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]

      Maybe I'm just missing something. How is that worse than losing at soccer (which I was awful at by the way) or football, etc.?

      Midge- I have been told that it is impolite to use the handicapped stalls at all (though it has never stopped me when there was a line [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] ) Apparently the issue is that handicapped people may NEED the stall quickly (besides being bursting) and they would have to wait that much longer for the limited stalls that they can use. Just what I've heard.

      Now that I think about it, I guess it's a lot like the handicapped parking spots. how many times would I have liked that spot, especially if I had to go to the bathroom? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

      Proud member of the ILMD[FN]HP and Bull Snap Haters Cliques


      • #43
        That bothers me, too. My brother thinks they are only for the handicapped (I'm not PC, so get over it--plus I have friends, and a boyfriend, who used to be called handicapped and never cared about that term) and that no one else should ever use them. Now, if someone is handicapped and waiting, they have dibs on the stall, but to say it is always reserved just in case, isn't practical in a women's bathroom! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

        As for the other PC issues, I think most of the changes have actually lowered standards and intelligence in this country. The world isn't fair. Does that mean I'm abusive and mean to people who can't read and write? Nope, I'll help them learn if I can, but I wouldn't hire them as a computer programmer until they are competent to be one and competitive with the others looking for the job. I won't judge them on their looks or any infirmities. I'll judge them on whether or not they can do the job well.

        I think not being great a sports is not always a bad thing. I have a SUPER geeky friend who had a sadistic gym teacher who made them play dodge ball with shirts and skins. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img] He said he was always a "skin" was always pummeled and left crying. It was not fair. Then again, he is now incredibly sucessful and none of the kids who played well are. Would he have become that sucessful without that happening? Who knows for sure, but for him, it drove him harder to prove himself in other areas.

        In the dressage world we are always arguing about requirements. Some don't want any, and I think we should have some to help raise the level of competition. It's JMHO. I'm a child of the 80s (mostly--if you don't count my early teen and preteen years). I think we don't need to be just out for ourselves, but I think we need to put the best at the top and have that help support those at the bottom.

        As someone pointed out we are a society of capitalists and we need that to keep us moving forward and to keep us strong.

        Like I said, it's JMHO. Feel free to disagree. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

        Velvetwhoistryingtostirthepotbutthespoonkeepsstick ing

        It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

        [This message was edited by Velvet on Sep. 05, 2002 at 04:34 PM.]
        "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"


        • #44
          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sandbarhorse:
          Bgoosewood: Sorry you had such a bad experience with dodgeball. What type of ball did you guys use? The one we had was about as harmless as they get, not much worse than getting hit with a foam ball, imho. By the way, I was not one of the most athletic kids in elementary school. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]


          Oh, it wasn't me. It was the other pink fleshy chubby kids who couldn't run worth a darn. The PE teacher played with us and she was like a MAN and could throw that ball HARD....I'm talking pink/red splotches on the kid's legs. Anyway, I just hate the idea that kids should be forced to play this game. There are other ways to get exersize. Not that it should be BANNED....just offer a choice.

          If you get to thinkin' you're a person of some influence, try orderin' somebody ELSE's dog around- A Cowboy's Guide to Life
          The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde


          • #45
            Good thing, it wasn't me Midge or I might have ripped her a new one. And no, I'm not just mean. But just because you're handicapped doesn't mean you go to the head of the line. And why on earth might they need a stall more quickly than someone who has been standing there 10 minutes already. Most of my handicapped friends make it a point not to act handicapped. But I have a co-worker who milks it and is just rude to boot.

            I don't have time to look it up but I believe ADA says you have to provide suitable accomodation for people. It doesn't say it has to be instantly available. In the case of parking spaces, it doesn't necessarily mean closest but accessable.
            'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
            - Pablo Picasso


            • #46
              The famous author of "Slaughterhouse Five" also wrote a short story (title escapes me) that later was made into a television program broadcast on PBS (this was back in the 60's or 70's). The story foresaw the rise of "political correctness" long before that term actually was coined.

              The premise of the story is that in the future, we will live under a government that is the ultimate in "politically correct." To that end, in the name of equality for all, the government will have draconian laws designed to level the playing field for all. For example, the strong must carry around heavy sandbags so they do not have an advantage over the weak, the beautiful must wear masks so that they have no advantage over the less attractive, the graceful must wear heavy shoes with uneven soles, those with good eyesight must wear distorting lenses, and so forth. You get the idea.

              The hero and heroine of the story are two ballet dancers, impossibly beautiful and graceful, who, in the middle of a televised performance, suddenly cast off their sandbags and masks and clunky hobble shoes and dance freely and beautifully. Naturally, they are hunted down as arch criminals by the government and killed.

              I always think of this story anytime I read about political correctness getting taken to ridiculous extremes by EITHER liberals or conservatives(which IMHO happens constantly).

              So maybe the lesson is, if you own a particularly beautiful or athletic horse, watch out!! Someday you may have to paint it green and tie its legs together so that people owning less desirable horses don't get their feelings hurt.

              [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]


              • #47
                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:

                It was the other pink fleshy chubby kids who couldn't run worth a darn....Anyway, I just hate the idea that kids should be forced to play this game. There are other ways to get exersize. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                Hey, I was usually more tan than pink. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif[/img]

                This is a bit of a digression, but I think part of dodgeball issue is, the idea is for otherwise sedentary kids to get exercise (agreeing with bgoosewood here.)

                I was one of those kids that was lousy at all the ball sports - dodgeball, kickball, softball, soccer. I just assumed I had no athletic ability whatsoever. It wasn't until I grew up that I realized that there were sports that I could do well at - they just aren't the ones kids are made to do in school. (At least, not in the dark ages.) Biking, lifting weights, canoe/kayaking, yes, but no ball sports.

                Dodgeball just lets kids enforce the pecking order, without encouraging real exercise.

                And, ummm, are we now flaming all disabled people? Because one poster encountered one openly angry disabled person on one occasion? Not that that's stereotyping or anything...

                Having watched my sister struggle with her disabilities, there's nothing a disabled person could say to me that would compare to what he/she has to live with every hour of every day. Some people really *do* have it much worse.

                You can call me a 60's-era bleeding heart, and frankly, I'll be flattered.


                • #48
                  Well, I wasn't flaming all disabled people. Just rude ones. Rudeness just isn't called for. But that doesn't mean I'm going to put up with people who think they're entitled just because..... you fill in the blank.

                  Life isn't fair. It isn't fair that I'm not tall, skinny and rich - and forever 30, while we're at it. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] But that doesn't give me license to run all over people.
                  'Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.'
                  - Pablo Picasso


                  • #49
                    I am very tired of the spineless PC attitudes that Americans are adopting. We are raising children who expect to have no discomfort in their lives. No disappointments. They will be spineless. Sometimes growth comes from adversity.
                    I make it a point NOT to be PC.

                    There are winners and there are losers. That's the way it is. Losers have to work harder to become winners. They can't have everything handed to them on a silver platter just because we don't want them to feel inadequate or have their feelings hurt.

                    Victory is sweeter if you work for it. I wasn't born a winner. I constantly work toward excellence to get there. Buck up and quit whining!

                    There is no future in being PC. Just my humble opinion.

                    Breeder of Holsteiner and Oldenburg prospects.
                    Oakleigh Sporthorses
                    Oakleigh Sporthorses Sale Horses


                    • #50
                      Education: As the mother of an autistic child, I can tell you that special ed is the cash cow of every school district. They like to have kids in special ed so the district gets the $$, then they spend it on the regualr ed population. They are able to do this because of Mainstreaming. It is not about the "bright" kids being held back by the kids from the short bus. It about the regular ed popualtion having their hands in the special ed population's pockets.

                      Racial profiling: I am so tired of being searched at the airport. I usually travel with my family, so picture this. Middle aged woman, WHITE w/ red hair and traveling with 2 kids, yeah I looking like a terrorist [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img] I finally figured out why I am always getting searched. I wear my dansko clogs when we travel 'cause they are so comfy. Airport sercurity looks for people who wear shoes w/ no laces to search because they have no place for people sit down and tie their shoes after they have been searched. I kid no not. If they are going to do a shoe search, they profile you by your shoes. That is security for you. How about picking people who actually might be a threat? What a concept! I have traveled a bit since last September, and I can tell you whenever a suspicious looking person (read here guy) gets up from their seat, I watch 'em all the way to the restroom. Law enforcement uses profiling for a reason, it is a valid tool. Islamic extremists don't have red hair, wear sleeveless dresses with a hemline above the knee and travel with two blonde kidlets.

                      This doesn't give law enforcement the excuse to be rude or disrespectful. But if there was an "Amber Alert" for a woman driving dk blue F150, I'd expect to be pulled over and I wouldn't complain about it.

                      With regard to horses, for dressage the best moving horse with the best training should win. It stand to reason that this would most often be the breed that was bred for gaits (the WB), but it doesn't mean an arab couldn't kick their butt!!! (ocasionally)

                      [This message was edited by nhwr on Sep. 05, 2002 at 06:18 PM.]
                      See those flying monkeys? They work for me.


                      • #51
                        I want to belong to the Church of Oakleigh! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]


                        • Original Poster

                          You're absolutely right, Midge, "LIFE IS NOT FAIR" but thanks to people who think as you do, it's a little "fairer" than many think it should be. From now on I won't stand on line, busting a gut, waiting for an open john while the handicapped one goes unused. Anyone who's waited in a Broadway theatre ladies room line will thank you, too.

                          BTW, I believe that using the word "handicapped" is no longer PC either. I think the proper expression is now "physically challenged." That in mind, for the rest of us, now when you really have to "go", you can just say you're "bladderly challenged", cut to the front of the line and proceed right to the "???????- challenged" john.

                          As for the dumbing down of GP courses, that's partly why our USET showjumping teams have fared so poorly in recent years compared to the early '80s. Speaking of which, the teams' downfall seemed to coincide with the adoption of the "objective selection" (aka PC) system---the result of lawsuits by some wealthy riders who did not make the team and thought they were being discriminated against by the " team selectors." They claimed an objective system would make team selection less "prejudiced" and fairer to all. It was fair all right, the point leaders made the team, even if it was their first year at the GP level. But the proven, consistent veterans were left on the bench, often because they chose not to "use up" their horses or let them peak during the grueling trials, trying to save them for the main event.

                          Time after time, we saw the team horses peak at home only to be burned out when they finally got to the Olympics/WEG/ etc. Oh this system is fair all right--especially for the Europeans who started to beat us, and still do, using our "old" subjective system. But while they're laughing all the way to the winner's circle, at least they can't accuse us of not being PC enough.

                          Funny though, correct me if I'm wrong, but the rider who brought down the system with her deep-pocketed lawsuits, has yet to make the team for any of these major events. But I guess it's not whether you win or lose but how fairly you pick your team! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif[/img]
                          "WHINNYING" IS EVERYTHING!!


                          • #53
                            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sandbarhorse:
                            I have heard recently that dodge ball was banned in a nearby school district because it could create issues of inferiority in children who were not as athletic as the others.


                            I strongly doubt the banning of dodge ball (which I remember quite fondly) was done for reasons of athleticism, rather more likely because of the tendency of children, like Jack Russells, to develop a pack mentality in numbers, and attack the weaker (or geekier, more oddly dressed, etc) members of the group. Children can be absolutely savage to one another.

                            I wouldn't ban dodge ball,though;it's a symptom, not the problem itself.

                            I recall my kid brother telling me one day after school about the neighbor child, a beautiful and sweet girl who was mildly retarded, but was mainstreamed. Some of the other kids had been tormenting her on the playground, and her classmates went to her rescue. John told me 'The teacher told us we ought to respect her, because she has to work harder to learn things than we do.' I was pretty impressed with the wisdom of this elementary school teacher, compared with the one I had in a similar situation--Mrs. Rossi used to tell us we couldn't go out for recess because "Robert" hadn't finished his work. She hoped we'd beat him into shape, apparently, but it backfired--a) because we all hated her intensely, and b) becuase we'd been lucky enough to have a teacher before her who, like my brother's teacher, planted the idea that if you were good at math, for example, you ought to give the benefit of your skills to the kid next to you who couldn't grok long division and try to help him, not smirk about your great grades.
                            Turned out that "Robert", although a bit "slow", was a talented artist.

                            Using the Darwininan model as a basis for human interaction leads to such a sad culture....

                            Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.
                            "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                            ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


                            • #54
                              <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
                              When's the last time you were stip searched?? [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img]


                              January, 1974.

                              Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.
                              "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                              ...just settin' on the Group W bench.


                              • #55
                                aw crap, my text got lost. never mind.


                                • #56
                                  Geeze, I was merrily chuckling away at this thread till someone had to bring up dodgeball [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif[/img]

                                  Dodgeball sucks!

                                  As for the balls we used, they were brutal. They were those horrid, reddish-marroon, rubber monstrousities that had some sort of texture to make them hurt even more. And they were always overinflated so they were rock hard.

                                  The darn game serves no useful purpose! It doesn't give you excercise. Even if you last the whole game you don't really get a work out. And the least athletic kids are usually the ones who get knocked out first!

                                  I was probably in the slightly above average group athletically, and I have many happy memories of childhood sports and gym class. But none involve dodgeball.

                                  (Sorry to interrupt this thread with a completely irrelevant dodgeball rant. But dodgeball just plain sucks. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img] )


                                  • #57
                                    I'm curious - what exactly do you think this condemned PC zeitgeist (love that word, have been saving it up to use on this BB for some time) has cost you?


                                    • #58
                                      I am absolutely with you.

                                      The handicapped ACCESS stall in the restroom is exactly that: a stall that will provide access for a wheelchair or scooter. It is NOT just for the use of handicapped and they don't get any special "move to the front of the line" privilages. Unless they ask and are granted such by those ahead of them.

                                      Handicapped parking spaces are a little different. They must be left open for the PROPERLY IDENTIFIED handicapped vehicles. They are also supposed to be wider spaces to accomodate ramped vehicles.

                                      My dad is handicapped and so I am very conscious of this. A while back, when he went out to eat, the HC spaces were taken, so he went out to the "south 40" to park to be sure that his ramp wouldn't be blocked. He fell while transferring from driver's seat to scooter and because of how far away he was from the restaurant, no one walked by that he could call to. It took 911 1.5 hours to get there once he got to his cell phone to call. He was already dehydrated in the heat.

                                      He said one of the cars in the reg. HC spaces was legit and one was unmarked.

                                      RE: political correctness. I HATE the term and the concept. Simple courtesy and "following the golden rule" will handle name calling and rudeness. But to try and whitewash a country and culture that prides itself on being so diverse is idiotic. And kids need to develop a bit of a thicker skin early on, as life isn't always going to treat them with kid gloves. Even the current panic about "bullying" in school may be stepping over the edge. There are ALWAYS going to be bullies of some sort in your life. You need to learn how to handle them and move on. Of course, if it is excessive, then of course, someone should step in.



                                      • #59
                                        <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by timedjumpoff:

                                        Hobson---thank you for bringing that old "60's bleeding heart liberal rhetoric to the forefront once again.

                                        Heineken---No, there won't be masses storming the gates at Devon, but don't be surprised to see hobson and his little group of protestors picketing in front of it!

                                        Oh no! Not the "bleeding heart liberal" curse!! I'm only shocked and offended because I'm much more left than that. Do I really come across as THAT conservative? I really must work to improve my insufferable lefty image. Anyhoo, I'll put together the demo at Devon once the sex change operation is completed.

                                        This thread feels like a contest to see who is most resentful of the poor, the disabled, and the non-white. Why can't you folks just be honest and admit that you just can't bear the idea of sharing space/resources/political power with black people, poor people, otherwise marginalized people? It's a lot of work to try camouflaging that in vents of disgust about "dumbing down" and "life's not fair." And oh, the irony of people who have all they need and much more telling those in wheelchairs and those trying to take care of their families on minimum wage with no health insurance what is fair and what is not fair.

                                        There are lots of serious problems in the world. You must have it good if "PC" at horse shows is the one that gets you upset.


                                        • #60
                                          Hobson said:
                                          <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Why can't you folks just be honest and admit that you just can't bear the idea of sharing space/resources/political power with black people, poor people, otherwise marginalized people? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                          Wow, that's quite a rant. Methinks maybe something said out here hit too close to your own feelings? It seems the statement, "None proclaim their innocence so loudly as the guilty," might fit in this instance.

                                          What I think people are saying out here is that in AMERICA, no one is considered better than another based solely upon outward appearances. No one deserves special privileges beyond an accomodation made for a disability (such as the stall or parking space, assistance in other areas).

                                          No one OWES anyone anything in this country. My great grandparents came here and scraped out a living and were looked down upon by other immigrants and those who had already established themselves here in the US long before they arrived. They rose to the challenge. Why should we start lowering the bar? Why can't everyone strive to reach the bar? What are you gaining by lowering it? If we have people with no education running the government, what would happen? If your doctor didn't have any medical training, but he/she was handicapped or had a certain skin color, would you still go to him/her and consider them qualified?

                                          What we need to stop is the dumbing down of America and the whitewashing of a society that has grown out of the differences you are railing against.

                                          Some people are only qualified for menial or manual labor, others are qualified for more. I've worked in a barn mucking stalls and I've also worked in an office in IT. If my skills had only fit those of a person who mucked stalls, I could have done that and survived. True, I wouldn't have lived that well, and I did have issues without medical insurance, but I survived (because I had a goal in mind) and I could have continued to survive if this was all that was available to me.

                                          The world (and America) does NOT owe anyone a living. You have to strive to achieve something. That's what makes us great!

                                          It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

                                          [This message was edited by Velvet on Sep. 06, 2002 at 11:23 AM.]
                                          "And I'm thinking you weren't burdened with an overabundance of schooling." - Capt Reynolds "Firefly"