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  • The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

    I could use some help from anyone interested in campaigning against the reinstatement of ANY of the horse killers.

    Think we can't do it? Maybe you've forgotten this little episode from 2004.

    What I propose for starters is an online petition, which can be circulated not just among USEF members and affiliate organizations, but among other national and foreign equestrian organizations as well, and then sent to USEF, the USOC, and the FEI.

    I certainly don't mind initiating this. However, I could use a little help from all y'all with the wording. Would it be better to have the petition contain language against reinstatement of ANY/ALL of the convicted parties listed here , or is it better to tackle the subject on a case-by-case basis?

    Thanks for any comments/advice. If you're not comfortable posting on this thread, PM me.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

  • #2
    I'd sign it.

    I think individually would pack more punch. Otherwise you are liable to get a group of people who are deciding who to reinstate, and they come up with a "compromise Verdict", and dissallow the "little guys" and let PV and other bigger names back in. You know that the Bigger Fish will be doing lots of lobbying, and their supporters will be doing the same.


    • Original Poster

      Yes, there is that. However, I certainly don't want to convey the impression of having a vendetta against any single person, either, because I don't. I just happen to think that the horse killings were a Very Bad Thing for our sport.

      However - since the individuals in question will be coming up for reinstatement on different dates and on an individual basis, that may be the way to go.

      The other question is - which would YOU be more likely to sign????
      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


      • #4
        Now, dudes..I doubt reinstatement's gonna happen. Remember, while the rest of the usual suspects were in court getting real prison terms...our fair haired boy was wearing a wire, turning states evidence on the very people he approached to kill the horse..and parking his canary singing, Porsche driving, butt in the WPB parking lot, two feet away from Jane Clark.. expensive walkie talkie in hand. Now, you and I both know that there are a couple of folks on The List that aren't gonna be too happy if PV is forgiven, whilst they were offered up as bargaining chips...just a thought

        *Save The Prairie Dog*
        \"Jean Louise, stand up. Your father\'s passing.\"


        • #5
          no offense- i really am playing the devils advocate here- but lets say best case scenario you have a couple thousand people from COTH etc sign your no reinstatement petition- do you really think that this will have any negative impact at all when put up against the thousands of *much more important* signatures/support for reinstatement from trainers, riders OLYMPIANS etc? i just think that while a nice idea, if 100,000 BBers signed a petition and 100 succesful GP riders supported him, well he will be welcomed onto any showgrounds. And for the most part, all of todays showjumping "heroes" DO support him, and have remained friendly with him, and have bought horses for themselves/ clients from him, and admire the way he has stayed in this business and continued to teach younger riders how to in turn become successful in the GP ranks.

          I am not saying don't do this, because I believe you should always stand up for what you think is right, I am just saying Look who you are up against- it may be futile.


          • #6
            wanna be- did you read the link by War Admiral in her opening post?


            • #7
              I am in agreement with wanna_be, this a a mountain too insurmountable for the average USEF member to overcome. Also, I feel that any action taken should be taken against the group, not a single individual. It is unfair to isolate one member, when there were several involved. The effort, while noble should be directed to a place where one CAN make a difference.
              POYBGP, member in good standing.


              • Original Poster

                OK, so we've got 1 person on this thread so far who thinks reinstatement is going to happen and one who doesn't.

                Here's how I see it: They would reinstate an awful lot of these people if they could.

                And if we remain silent, it could well be presented to us as a fait accompli before we ever even know what hit us.

                OTOH: You seriously think they *won't* sacrifice the suspended parties, plus the goodwill of a few current GP riders (GP riders having a fairly limited competitive life span, after all) if the million-pound PR sh*thammer is falling on them from every conceivable direction and they think there's a possibility USEF might get removed as NGB for all eternity???

                I'm not fooling around. This is MY sport too, and yours as well. It's never going to be perfect, we all know that; but it should NEVER be a sport where breaking a horse's legs with a crowbar for money is seen by the NGB as O.K. I've got a horse sitting in my barn right now who would not be alive if these people had continued to roam unchecked.

                It's time to stop this crap. I fully support USEF when they do the right thing. But like any other large corporate entity, sometimes they need a wake-up call.
                "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


                • #9
                  War Admiral, I'm with you.

                  I think that EACH time one of the people involved in truly egregious situations is up for reinstatement it's a good thing to make one's opinions known. Will they carry the day? We don't know. But I DO know that I personally have strong feelings and believe it to be my obligation to my equine partner to make them known.

                  Let's face facts, there will be some eloquent letters of support for PV, and others I'm sure, probably from some influential people. Yet, if enough of the much vaunted "grass roots" makes their small voices heard, the sound may carry enough to make a difference. Anyone remember the Dr. Seuss classic "Horton Hears a Who?" If the USEF truly wants to be for ALL riders, and wants to reach the grassroots as it says, well, this seems an ideal way to hear us peasants down here on the ground....


                  • #10
                    jetsmom- yes, I did. I think there is a world of difference between PV judging a class while still under suspension, and having the suspension itself lifted. Also, while Paul himself stepped down from the position of judge due in part to peoples discomfort with the situation, I doubt he would do the same in this much grander one. I don't think for him the importance of judging a class is paramount to that of being a part of competetive showjumping again; he will probably fight for this.

                    and war admiral you said, "I'm not fooling around. This is MY sport too, and yours as well. It's never going to be perfect, we all know that; but it should NEVER be a sport where breaking a horse's legs with a crowbar for money is seen by the NGB as O.K. I've got a horse sitting in my barn right now who would not be alive if these people had continued to roam unchecked."

                    If the USEF does reinstate Paul, they are far from condoning what he did. If a person murders another person and gets out in 25 years, it is not because the government suddenly thinks its ok to kill people. maybe there were "interesting" conditions that surrounded the murder, or maybe they (government) simply doesn't have the means to keep the murderer anymore. It is possible that the USEF reinstate Paul while still recognizing that what he did was wrong. Maybe they feel he learned his lesson, or that helping to turn numerous others in should count for something, or they may simply listen to the VOLUMES of people that will be helping him. I don't know, I'm just saying the USEF as NGB is not neccessarily condoning Paul's actions should they reinstate him. And as for the horse in your barn right now, I feel the need to clarify: everyone involved in the killings was hardly "roaming unchecked". In fact, they were very systematic, hence the reason that horses actually died before they were stopped. I hardly think your personal horse was in danger.
                    For all of you that are anti-PV or anti-reinstatement for your horses sake and not just for the sake or argument, I think that is admirable. We should stand up for the wellbeing of all horses, because someone's got to.


                    • #11
                      This is kind of off topic a little, but one of the things that I found so horrific, is that when the authorities were "on" to what was going on, they heard about a horse that was "scheduled" to be killed. They sent people to stake out the barn and videotape what went on. The video showed a horse having his legs being broken with a crowbar and turned loose so it would look like an accident. THe authorities did not intervene, because they needed to actually catch them filing an insurance claim in order to get them for more than a misdemeanor. After the "perps" left, a vet came out and put the horse down which was truly suffering and going into shock. This video was one of the most horrible things I have ever seen, and I think of it everytime the name of one of those involved is mentioned. I find it somehow equally troubling that what they did to that horse was allowed to happen because in the eyes of the law, torturing an animal is somehow a lesser crime than ripping off an insurance company. That seems so wrong to me.
                      Did anyone else see the video to which I am referring?


                      • #12
                        Oh yeah...as I've said before..Donna only got a 15 year suspension, but she better hope I don't meet her in a dark alley with a crowbar. Streetwise had a colic clause on his policy..so he HAD to be killed this way for that disgusting *&%$# to collect.

                        *Save The Prairie Dog*
                        \"Jean Louise, stand up. Your father\'s passing.\"


                        • #13
                          I have never understood how people have gone on dealing with Paul like this never happened. For over twenty years, I considered Paul a friend. He was someone I saw and spoke with on almost a daily basis, and I was good friends with much of his barn staff.
                          I left the business not long after all this happened. In fact, it had such an effect on me that it was a catalyst for me leaving the business.
                          Since I stopped going to the shows shortly after all this broke, I have never seen Paul again. However, if I passed him on the street tomorrow, I would not stop to speak with him.
                          I spent over twenty years taking care of wonderful show horses. Their life is far from an ideal one, and I was 100% dedicated to taking the best care of them I possibly could, to the point of sacrificing everything else in my life. I cannot imagine ever forgiving, or forgetting, that Paul could have so little regard for the lives of the wonderful animals that were entrusted to his care.


                          • #14
                            Perhaps the saddest thing was, at least in his case, it was something he did not need to do, it was not a matter of survival, and in many cases these poor horses were laughed about after their untimely ends. If it were not commonplace, a name like the "sandman" would never have been given. Such a euphemism, as if getting a shock through one's anus was like drifting off to sleep. To this old goat, it is more horrifying because of the amount of trust these animals have for their caretakers. They live a pampered life, with generous care, until someone cannot figure out how to get more performance from them.
                            POYBGP, member in good standing.


                            • #15
                              I would sign a petition voicing my opposition to reinstatement for "the list."

                              I think we owe it to those poor murdered (there, I said it) horses to try and keep these people banned. Forever.

                              I feel we can't sit here in silence -- the USEF must know how strongly we feel. If we don't tell them, how will they know?

                              What if PV does get reinstated and we all smack our foreheads and say, "Gosh, I should have put up a major stink!"?



                              • Original Poster

                                Well, even if he does get reinstated, it doesn't necessarily end there.

                                I'll try to draft something up this evening & see what you all think of it.
                                "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


                                • #17
                                  I'd certainly sign it, but I don't think I'd be much help with the wording, etc. Honestly talking about crowbars smashing hind legs and electric probes up the butt certainly speaks for itself. Maybe you could get the ASPCA involved? I also keep in touch with some TB rescue groups and I'm sure I could get most of them to sign. I think a little networking by each of us and USEF will have quite a large contigent to deal with.


                                  • #18
                                    I wonder if the ASPCA keeps an "eye" on PV and his horses?
                                    L. Bradley
                                    www.theoutsidecourse.com Check it out!


                                    • #19
                                      how would you find out? where is PVs barn anyway? i think i would like to sign, too.


                                      • #20
                                        Just chiming in, but I too don't believe he will be reinstated. Two things, first there would be one helluva an uproar and second, no one would pay a whole lot of attention to the rules, if someone who was found guilty like PV, given a life suspension, then found to be okay to come back to the fold. It really would not be a smart move on the USEF's part what so ever.

                                        Oh Racetb, I think your bling with a shad belly would be dynamite. Now of course, you need to have the lining in hot pink with little sparkly things You sure would catch the judges eye!