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  • Originally posted by spina:
    Someone leasing or buying a horse from a suspended member is not violating the law, or even the rules. A suspended member is not violating the law or the rules by leasing or selling a horse to someone.
    I agree with that, provided it is a real transaction, not one that is done with the purpose of getting horses owned by PV into the ring. I mean I make money selling horses, usually I have a Jr rider or AA show said horse because that is the type of horses I make- so they need to go in those divisions. However, I sign my name on the dotted line. If PV has 'sold' or 'leased' these horses for that, then if does violate the rules. If he does do that, that means he knows it violates the rules and he has found a way around it.

    I agree that it is a violation of the INTENT of the rules to sell someone a horse for a dollar so that they can show it - but that's what happens when rules are made and worded a specific way to try to create organization amongst chaos - people will find ways around them.
    I am right with you there, I agree. However one of the conditions of reinstatment was for him to abide by the terms of his suspension (not on grounds, no horses owned by him etc etc)his doing so would have shown that he knew he did a very foul and wrong thing and his actions would be above reproach becuase he genuinely understood what he did was wrong. Being clever enough to circumvent the letter of the suspension is not something that I am impressed with, in fact it scares me- because it shows that he still is willing to play fast and loose as long as he can point to the verbage and be clear according to that verbage. He is intellegent and has found a way around it- this is a good thing in terms of USEF wanting him back? That he is clever enough to find a loophole and dirty enough to use it? He knows it violates the rules and he has found a way around it. Much like when he knew it was illegal to kill a horse and file for insurance, so he tried to find a way around it by hiring someone, establishing his own alibi, lying etc.

    Violating an intent is not viloating a rule or law - and if you don't like it, figure out a way to get the rule rewritten so it doesn't happen again. Running through the town with torches yelling "monster" not only doesn't work, it only applies to one monster.
    I agree again. I know some are over the top on both sides of the argument, however my only interest is my deeply held belief that someone who has the ability to do what he did for the reasons he did should not be allowed to be a part of an association like USEF. So no monster yelling from me.

    I am not sure why people have a hard time beleiving he has violated the intent of his suspension, he violated the law in having killed for insurance money.

    I am truly amazed and a bit sickened that so many people are spending so much time and energy berating one person for something he did 10 years ago that was horrible and criminal - which he admitted was horrible and criminal, and has apologized for, and paid for as best he can according to the standards set by the organization that suspended him - as well as through community service.
    This is an interesting thing for me- I might be sickened as well if I believed as you and many others seem to that he had admitted his acts were horrible and criminal and had paid for it the best he could. However, I truly do not feel that is the case in this situation. To me paying for it the best he could would not be someone coaching from the sideline, or knowing what the intent of his suspension was but violating it while still keeping with the letter of the ruling. That does not show me true remorse or a willingness to take a deserved punishment. If he truly wanted to demonstrate his remorse and pay for his actions I think he could have remained in the business of teaching- surely he has much talent and could share that with others, where are the clinics he has given for no charge except for his expenses? When has he gotten up publicly and spoken about the infractions he committed and maybe the pressures that led him to do so in the hopes of preventing others from following that path (they make drunk drivers give speeches in high schools in hope that they will relate to their peers and their story will help others) Where has he volunteered his time and knowledge to help those that would never have the chance to learn from someone who competed at such elite levels? To me these things show someone who wants to do good things to offset the bad. I have not seen evidence of this except when he feels it will benefit him, which is not true remorse.

    But the real witch hunt is the going after the people who have leased his horses. They are not criminals - they are not engaging in criminal activity - and if they choose to deal with someone with a suspended membership and a dark past then that's their perogative.
    I agree that if they are unaware if they are part of a criminal action they should not be held responsible, however if they are and do so willingly then they should be. Much like aiding and abetting.

    This whole discussion reminds me about the Clintonesqe debate about what 'is' is- Is it considered cheating on your spouse if you only perform certain acts? Some say yes, some say no. My thoughts on that are probably different than others- i think if you think about cheating, maybe flirt a little or get a little suggestive that is not cheating- however the second that turns to any contact of an intimate nature from kissing to anything else- then the line is crossed. Some think the minute you seriously consider stepping out is cheating. Maybe that is the real problem with a lot of posters- all seem to agree that what he did was way wrong- but they differ on whether he has shown and done the appropriate measures to be reinstated.

    I just don't feel someone has truly gotten the message when they continue the same behavior only on a lesser scale. JMHO
    Sometimes going forward is as simple as never going backward.


    • Originally posted by Sheila H:
      I'm always puzzled by the arguement that he is somehow circumventing the terms of the suspension. The AHSA could have said something like 'we will only consider an application for reinstatement if he has nothing to do with horses for ten years', but they didnt. What they did say was quite the opposite - he has to demonstrate that he's ok to be around horses, which presumably requires his continued involvement.

      Whoever said the no reinstatement people's real beef is with the AHSA's ruling 10 years ago was pretty smart. Was that Glimmerglass?
      I think it would have been very unlikely that AHSA could have denied him his profession. They can not say he can not make a living by practicing his trade. Only that he may not compete in their sanctioned shows. Many trainers never make it to the rated shows, they still can teach, clinic, ride, train and sell horses. So it is not like it would be a hardship that was insufferable or take the food off his table.
      Sometimes going forward is as simple as never going backward.


      • It states, N. Smithfield, R.I as Acres Wild Farm, Sheila H. The farm is active, and thats why my question. He is listed as suspended. The farm is not.


        • Radiotalk that's a very interesting loop hole isn't it. Now if tne farm owns the horses then they can compete?

          This is like the double speak that I got when they said that Northeast Regional Horse shows was charged and they couldn't file a Grievance because they weren't a person. And I couldn;t file a Grievance because I wasn't charged but I own the Management group. It has no assets I don't deposit in it.

          Boy! talk about slippery lawyers.
          http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


          • Originally posted by BaliBandido:
            I'm all for putting your money where your mouth is, but I have also learned sometimes a sock is better.
            BB, what a great line, may I adopt this as a signature?

            I would like to encourage everyone who is concerned about the motives and repercussions of this petition to actually go to the no reinstatement petition and read the text, which, incidentally, explains why only PV is mentioned.

            Signing means you support the petition. Period. It does not mean you support *every* opinion of *every* poster on this or any other bulletin board discussion.

            Signing the petition does not mean you are prohibited from supporting OR INITIATING efforts to reduce or eliminate the various injustices that many have raised as being more contemporary or more worthy in some way.

            In other words, instead of trying to redirect this effort to the problem of your choice, go after it yourself--post a topic and a petition and you may be surprised at the support you will get.

            You do not have to be a member of the USEF to sign. The petition will be forwarded to the USOC. Since the USEF also selects the equestrian Olympic team, which represents our country, everyone has a stake in this issue.

            Similarly--since the petition will be sent to the FEI, numerous people from other countries have signed.

            It's worth taking a look at the Australian equestrian NGB code of conduct.
            Tinwhistle Farm


            • Ok. I did it again. Did not join USEF last year because I had heard about Nancy Banfield getting back in. The USEF just sent me another letter to re join and I replyed that I did not want to be associated with a group who supports any person who is convicted of killing horses for profit. Ooops, I mean convicted of horse abuse.


              • I would like to suggest that you all redirect your energies to basket weaving.
                ... _. ._ .._. .._


                • And why would that be Equibrit? People discussing bother you?


                  • N&B&T- of course you can use it!

                    Now if I could just put it into practice more often!
                    Sometimes going forward is as simple as never going backward.


                    • Basket weaving would be less repitious.


                      • By all means Sheila then go weave a basket; we don't want you to be stressed.
                        http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                        • I was thinking of weaving a basket for you anyway. Just in case.


                          • Great idea please make it red with white trim so I can use it at the shows to sell the red and white bracelets.
                            http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                            • Equibrit and Sheila, I love you both and your great ideas. Please make me the basket with red trim and a NO REINSTATEMENT ribbon on it. Than send it with love and care, insured, to the USEF. What a great idea! Heck, why not make a couple so that your friend PV can have his own. You could send them both at the same time. Wait, just one more. We forgot to get one for Mason. He would not want to be left out either. This could be another item for the NO REINSTATEMENT store. great idea guys.


                              • Do you clowns know what red & white means?


                                • Originally posted by Sheila H:
                                  Do you clowns know what red & white means?
                                  Santa Claus?
                                  Or are you talking about a red and white herring?



                                  • Red for the blood spilled to protect freedom and white for purity of purpose.
                                    http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                                    • Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total; of all those acts will be written the history of this generation.
                                      Robert F. Kennedy
                                      \"The only reason that evil exists in the world is that good men do nothing\" Robert F. Kennedy via Edmund Burke


                                      • Originally posted by Equibrit:
                                        I would like to suggest that you all redirect your energies to basket weaving.

                                        There's a thought, I could use one for my socks.
                                        Tinwhistle Farm


                                        • Ok. I did it again. Did not join USEF last year because I had heard about Nancy Banfield getting back in. The USEF just sent me another letter to re join and I replyed that I did not want to be associated with a group who supports any person who is convicted of killing horses for profit. Ooops, I mean convicted of horse abuse.

                                          you know i think that is a superb idea!!! anyone who doesn't like the final decision should simply take their marbles and go home!