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The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

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  • dawg... no need to piss on every tree...

    Comment


    • and your logic eludes me...

      Comment


      • after further review... dawg... i agree...

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sheila H:
          Most estimates say somewhere btwn 2 and 5.
          why don't you cite the study or whatever for this estimate? do you just make this stuff up as you go?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by big dawg:

            ...there are no rules against criminals being members of the USEF.

            And most every one of them have the right to petition for reinstatement, and to have their case heard in a fair and impartial manner...

            after all, we let the suspended druggers of horses back in without even a petition for reinstatement...and that doesn't bother all you "do gooder, self-righteous" types...I don't get why you all are on such a bender about this when obviously other things don't even phase you.
            I *think* the courts have held that the USEF can deny membership in some situations for criminal behavior. I would hope so anyway! Someone who is better versed in the court documents could perhaps tell us?

            Yes, they do have the right to reapply. Impartial means both sides, IMO. Therefore, both supporters and opposers to reinstatement can make their views known publically. It's a free country.

            I would not assume that people posting here condone illegal drugging. Quite the reverse, in fact. However, if sanctions against even inhumane horse killing with intent to defraud are not severe, why should we believe that sanctions against repeated illegal drugging will ever be made sufficiently strong to deter it?

            What if USA Skating reinstated Tonya Harding?
            Tinwhistle Farm

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              Originally posted by big dawg:

              Yes, but they were not suspended because they are criminals, they were suspended for animal abuse--in case you don't know...there are no rules against criminals being members of the USEF.

              And most every one of them have the right to petition for reinstatement, and to have their case heard in a fair and impartial manner...

              after all, we let the suspended druggers of horses back in without even a petition for reinstatement...and that doesn't bother all you "do gooder, self-righteous" types...I don't get why you all are on such a bender about this when obviously other things don't even phase you.
              Ahhhhhhhh Big Dawg, me old pal, lovely to see you back! Beer?

              It's my understanding that Big Dawg is completely correct and that criminal behavior itself is NOT sufficient grounds for a USEF suspension. (See: Joe Plemmons situation.)

              The suspended parties were, as Big Dawg rightly states, suspended for horse abuse (read: killing them for profit), not for their respective convictions/participation in the federal fraud case.

              And yes, every single one of them ABSOLUTELY has the right to apply for reinstatement; the terms of the USEF order confirm that. Nobody here is disputing it. But, as N&B&T observes, both "sides" are equally entitled to put forward as much persuasive material as they can muster.

              Maybe where Big Dawg and I actually disagree is that I perceive the "drugging horses" issue to be a separate one from the "killing horses" issue.

              I'm by all means in complete agreement w/ Big Dawg that the "drugging horses" issue needs to be addressed; I always have been. I'd love to see those fines and suspensions jacked up SO SKY HIGH that it's no longer in any trainer's best fiscal interest to use illegal substances on horses.

              That said, I do think that it *is* a separate issue, and I think the more immediate need at this particular time is to focus on No Reinstatement for those who killed horses.

              But I'll be more than happy to come and play in an anti-drugging sandbox later, if anyone wants to get it started. Over to you, BD. And as usual, thanks for the bump!

              Quick update on press: we've had some nibbles, we've done some interviews, so has the other side, so we'll see y'all in the papers, guys.
              "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

              Comment


              • From The COTH November2000 (link: Judge's Ruling ) *note the link is not working.*

                BARNEY WARD BANNED PERMANENTLY, JUDGE RULES

                On Nov. 1, a New York State Supreme Court justice ruled in favor of the American Horse Shows Association in its two-year effort to keep former show jumper Barney Ward off horse show grounds. Justice Richard F. Braun granted the AHSA a permanent injunction to keep Ward off show grounds for as long as he is suspended.

                Ward, along with others convicted in the insurance-fraud indictments announced in July 1994, was suspended by the AHSA Hear-ing Committee for a minimum 15 years in July 1998. After serving 33 months in federal prison, he appeared on the grounds of shows in Vermont and Florida, violating his suspension. Justice Leland G. LeGrasse ruled twice in favor of the AHSA in granting a temporary injunction against Ward, pending further action.

                Justice Braun’s decision permanently bars Ward from attending AHSA-recognized competitions as a participant or spectator. He noted that Ward had pleaded guilty in March 1996 to the insurance-fraud charges, admitting he arranged for Tommy Burns to electrocute George Lindemann’s hunter Charisma and three other horses before he threatened to kill Burns if he told anyone. Justice Braun called these "most reprehensible actions."

                Justice Braun wrote that the AHSA "has the right to keep unsavory people away from the horse shows that it oversees, even if only to prevent the appearance of impropriety."

                Justice Braun rejected Ward’s request that he be allowed to watch his son, McLain Ward, compete, saying Barney "should have considered the consequences of his actions before he put himself in the position in which he is now."

                He added that the AHSA "issued an appropriate penalty that, contrary to [Ward’s] contention, was not disproportionate to penalties issued against others" and that the AHSA is "certainly justified in avoiding actual or potential harm to its events, members and reputation, not to mention the horses, by having [Ward] barred from those events."


                QUOTE]

                Note that Ward plead guilty to fraud..

                SO there is a ruling that stands behind the (USEF) ASHA to keep "unsavory people" (not just those convicted of felonies) away from the horse shows...
                I have asked if this was made into a formal USEF rule.. Did the expensive Federal Court case..which the AHSA won..produce a rule we can quote from the rule book?

                At any rate, the Federal Court ruled the USEF is certainly justified in their right to bar persons form their shows.
                Tradition of "Grande" Sporthorse Champions
                GRANDE SOVEREIGN 2014 USEF 8th Leading HB Sire
                & Sire of OWN IT - USEF National HB 3yo Champion

                Grand Affiar, Grande Desire, GR Impression, Couture du Jour

                Comment


                • Originally posted by TWF:
                  From The COTH November2000 (link: Judge's Ruling ) *note the link is not working.*

                  BARNEY WARD BANNED PERMANENTLY, JUDGE RULES

                  On Nov. 1, a New York State Supreme Court justice ruled in favor of the American Horse Shows Association in its two-year effort to keep former show jumper Barney Ward off horse show grounds. Justice Richard F. Braun granted the AHSA a permanent injunction to keep Ward off show grounds for as long as he is suspended.

                  Ward, along with others convicted in the insurance-fraud indictments announced in July 1994, was suspended by the AHSA Hear-ing Committee for a minimum 15 years in July 1998. After serving 33 months in federal prison, he appeared on the grounds of shows in Vermont and Florida, violating his suspension. Justice Leland G. LeGrasse ruled twice in favor of the AHSA in granting a temporary injunction against Ward, pending further action.

                  Justice Braun’s decision permanently bars Ward from attending AHSA-recognized competitions as a participant or spectator. He noted that Ward had pleaded guilty in March 1996 to the insurance-fraud charges, admitting he arranged for Tommy Burns to electrocute George Lindemann’s hunter Charisma and three other horses before he threatened to kill Burns if he told anyone. Justice Braun called these "most reprehensible actions."

                  Justice Braun wrote that the AHSA "has the right to keep unsavory people away from the horse shows that it oversees, even if only to prevent the appearance of impropriety."

                  Justice Braun rejected Ward’s request that he be allowed to watch his son, McLain Ward, compete, saying Barney "should have considered the consequences of his actions before he put himself in the position in which he is now."

                  He added that the AHSA "issued an appropriate penalty that, contrary to [Ward’s] contention, was not disproportionate to penalties issued against others" and that the AHSA is "certainly justified in avoiding actual or potential harm to its events, members and reputation, not to mention the horses, by having [Ward] barred from those events."


                  QUOTE]

                  Note that Ward plead guilty to fraud..

                  SO there is a ruling that stands behind the (USEF) ASHA to keep "unsavory people" (not just those convicted of felonies) away from the horse shows...
                  I have asked if this was made into a formal USEF rule.. Did the expensive Federal Court case..which the AHSA won..produce a rule we can quote from the rule book?

                  At any rate, the Federal Court ruled the USEF is certainly justified in their right to bar persons form their shows.
                  You need to be a lawyer--you are attempting to give legal advice without a license--maybe we should yank your USEF membership for breaking the law.

                  You are taking this court case and citation out of context...Ward showed up at the shows, on the show grounds and legally challenged the ASHA's right to keep him off the grounds during the period of his suspension...the court merely upheld the AHSA's right to ban him as a suspended person from licensed [newly added word in '06] competitons. That was what the case was about--you should have been around then and maybe you would have a better contextual view of this whole thing.

                  Comment


                  • Dear little puppy, there is a difference between someone who was tried and convicted and confessed to their guilt of a felony that directly involved their participation in an illegal way in this sport and industry. Druggersd have not been prosecuted and most have not confessed their guilt.

                    If the USEF chose a District attorney could prosecute those who tested positive for drugging horses under the "racketeering laws"; I think those are called the Ricco laws. Anyone guilty of tampering with the results of a sport competition. I don't know if that's a felony or a misdemeaner. In my personal opinion the County should be notified whenever someone is caught and they should be the ones to prosecute both under Ricco and for Animal abuse. That would end the drugging problem very quickly. If the USEF does not purssue that recourse I am embarrased by them.

                    I am personally offended when righteous people say it's nothing to collect insurance money fraudulently. It's costs us each one when they do and they caused their own loss. I am offended when righteous people think that selling someone's horse and not giving them the full amount that was paid short of a legal 10% commission is criminal enough for the USEF to recognize a court order. I am personally offended if our Federation chooses not to respect the Law enough to abide by the decisions of a court order.

                    Not to enforce the rules in the rule book that are available for this purpose is collusion and consent to criminal activities.
                    http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      Doubt if anyone who drugged a horse could be prosecuted under RICO, unless there were a proven conspiracy across state lines and one could convince a U.S. Attorney to prosecute under RICO.

                      The reason the horse killers were subject to RICO was because there was conspiracy to defraud insurance companies across several states, which is a FEDERAL felony.

                      Info on the RICO Act.

                      I'M NOT A LAWYER EITHER, but I think that's more or less right.
                      "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                      Comment


                      • War Admiral--make mine a MGD

                        seriously though I would not sign the No Reinstatement Petition because I don't agree with it. I think most of these people should be allowed to be reinstated and will trust the hearing committee to weigh all the facts and make a correct decision--I do believe those on the committee care about the sport and the public's perception of the sport, but also recognize that they have a higher authority to answer to, i.e. the USOC and the IOC. I don't see drugging in violation of the Rules as any different--if it is not animal abuse to have your horse in a drunken stupor just so you can win a class, then I don't know what is? And I am against animal abuse...I am a breeder and own horses that I am very partial to on lots of levels...I care about my animals, and wish others would feel the same way--but they don't and that probably includes half the USEF membership--the city dwellers who just come out in their expensive SUV, get on the horse that the groom has all prepared and that the trainer beat the prior two days because it wouldn't go for the lady because she is such a bad rider--then she takes her lesson, hops off, hands it back to the groom, maybe feeds it a couple of carrots, then off to shopping with her friend. Don't get me started on this H/J industry. I am a jumper rider for over 25 years. I know how it is. And I don't mean to condemn all the owners and riders, as there are many just like me who are always trying to do the right thing. But we have far more problems in this industry than these 2 doaen or so people, who no doubt will never do anything like this again, and who could serve as a voice in this industry as they have done something they are ashamed of and perhaps if around to tell others just may keep someone else from doing something similar.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Snowbird:
                          Dear little puppy, there is a difference between someone who was tried and convicted and confessed to their guilt of a felony that directly involved their participation in an illegal way in this sport and industry. Druggersd have not been prosecuted and most have not confessed their guilt.

                          If the USEF chose a District attorney could prosecute those who tested positive for drugging horses under the "racketeering laws"; I think those are called the Ricco laws. Anyone guilty of tampering with the results of a sport competition. I don't know if that's a felony or a misdemeaner. In my personal opinion the County should be notified whenever someone is caught and they should be the ones to prosecute both under Ricco and for Animal abuse. That would end the drugging problem very quickly. If the USEF does not purssue that recourse I am embarrased by them.

                          I am personally offended when righteous people say it's nothing to collect insurance money fraudulently. It's costs us each one when they do and they caused their own loss. I am offended when righteous people think that selling someone's horse and not giving them the full amount that was paid short of a legal 10% commission is criminal enough for the USEF to recognize a court order. I am personally offended if our Federation chooses not to respect the Law enough to abide by the decisions of a court order.

                          Not to enforce the rules in the rule book that are available for this purpose is collusion and consent to criminal activities.
                          Where did you get your law school degree? Sears mail order?

                          RICO is racketeering, and it doesn't even apply here.

                          Comment


                          • The No-Reinstatement bracelets have just been delivered by Fedex. If you have written before please send me another email and I will send them out by week's end. It will save me searching the files.

                            They cost us $1.75 each plus shipping. I couldn't find them anywhere for the price quoted by SNL. But they are here at last. I have received two checks with no indication of the number of bracelets needed.

                            So let's get those requests you can pm me or email me direct with the address where they should be sent.

                            Little puppy feel free to seek support for the issues you think are more important. I for one would love to know what issues disturb you.
                            http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              Originally posted by big dawg:
                              War Admiral--make mine a MGD

                              seriously though I would not sign the No Reinstatement Petition because I don't agree with it. I think most of these people should be allowed to be reinstated and will trust the hearing committee to weigh all the facts and make a correct decision--I do believe those on the committee care about the sport and the public's perception of the sport, but also recognize that they have a higher authority to answer to, i.e. the USOC and the IOC. I don't see drugging in violation of the Rules as any different--if it is not animal abuse to have your horse in a drunken stupor just so you can win a class, then I don't know what is? And I am against animal abuse...I am a breeder and own horses that I am very partial to on lots of levels...I care about my animals, and wish others would feel the same way--but they don't and that probably includes half the USEF membership--the city dwellers who just come out in their expensive SUV, get on the horse that the groom has all prepared and that the trainer beat the prior two days because it wouldn't go for the lady because she is such a bad rider--then she takes her lesson, hops off, hands it back to the groom, maybe feeds it a couple of carrots, then off to shopping with her friend. Don't get me started on this H/J industry. I am a jumper rider for over 25 years. I know how it is. And I don't mean to condemn all the owners and riders, as there are many just like me who are always trying to do the right thing. But we have far more problems in this industry than these 2 doaen or so people, who no doubt will never do anything like this again, and who could serve as a voice in this industry as they have done something they are ashamed of and perhaps if around to tell others just may keep someone else from doing something similar.
                              Big Dawg - Miller coming right up - in a No Reinstatement Beer Stein! (O.K., joke is stale; beer is not. )

                              But seriously: I totally understand and respect your reasons for not signing. They're very well stated.

                              It would indeed have been very nice if any of the "horse killers" had stepped up and become strong loud voices against horse abuse. They would have commanded a serious amount of respect (including mine) if they had done so. Unfortunately, none of them have.

                              Even the ones who are attempting to prove their own "total rehabilitation" to satisfy the standards set out by the USEF Hearing Committee ("...affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that s/he has taken steps to reform him/herself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses....") are not really satisfying the Committee's criterion of public service "to benefit the welfare of the horse".

                              One is working, from what I understand, in a therapeutic riding program - which by all means is certainly public service (provided she's not getting paid), but it didn't benefit the HORSES last time I checked; another one, whom we all know, seems to regard volunteer judging at WEF on off-days as a "community service of benefit to the horses", which is kind of a novel stance IMO...

                              So can anyone show me where any of these people have made ANY serious attempt to convince anyone that they've done ANYTHING AT ALL for the benefit of the horses during the time they've been suspended?

                              In addition to which, from what I understand, insurance premiums tend to be a bit higher at the barns of those "horse killers" who continue to do business as trainers. Now, I'm definitely not a risk management professional (can't do math, teehee), but if the insurance premiums are higher at those barns, could it be because professional risk assessors think there *is* in fact some kind of risk, at least statistically speaking, that one or more of these people *will* do it again?

                              I'm not attacking, I'm just asking.

                              Snowbird: That is great news! Thanks so much!! Is it too late for folks who have not ordered bracelets from you to place an order?
                              "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                              Comment


                              • War Admiral, congrats on that wonderful piece in the Palm Beach Post today. Lovely, lovely.

                                Of course, it had to have the usual Mason butt kiss, but then who is surprised?

                                Comment


                                • Can someone please post a link?
                                  \"Riding a horse is not a gentle hobby, to be picked up and laid down like a game of solitaire. It is a grand passion. It seizes a person whole and, once it has done so, he will have to accept that his life will be radically changed.\" -- Ralph Waldo E

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    Originally posted by Coreene:
                                    War Admiral, congrats on that wonderful piece in the Palm Beach Post today. Lovely, lovely.

                                    Of course, it had to have the usual Mason butt kiss, but then who is surprised?
                                    Thanks, Coreene - I didn't even know it was out until you e-mailed me!
                                    Linkage

                                    For the record, I thought it was pretty well balanced. However - one minor correction: as everyone here knows, I am most definitely NOT an "amateur showjumper" - I haven't seen the business side of the in-gate at the jumper ring since ohhhh, '79-80 or thereabouts!

                                    I just don't want anyone to think I'm claiming to be something I'm not... Right now, I'm doing carriage driving with the Avemaster and still goofing around with saddle seat - I'll be doing adult pleasure eq. this season and MAYBE Country Pleasure later in the year if a suitable horse can be found.

                                    Many thanks to Horse_Poor, Snowbird, Anyplace Farm, SNL & everyone else who is helping get and keep this thing together.
                                    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                                    Comment


                                    • Not at all NEVER TOO LATE. I have 200 bracelets in hand; red with white letters in silicone. They are two sizes, large and medium there is one inch difference is size. So keep the orders coming. We can easily print more.

                                      I'd love to see a few thousand out there being worn at all shows especially. And, don't forget the red ribbons idea at shows it's great conversation starter.
                                      http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        Great! I've got to scoot out to the farm & tuck the Avemaster in bed (I've messed my back up & he hasn't seen me in days) but I'll e-mail you an order when I get back.

                                        Meanwhile, I've linked to the Palm Beach Post article on www.noreinstatement.org now.
                                        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                                        Comment


                                        • Congratulations on your article, WA, I found the Mason comment interesting in that even he said it was the letter of the law that was complied with. He might as well have added "but not the spirit".
                                          POYBGP, member in good standing.

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