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The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Duffy:
    Lucasb - talk about the same thoughts!
    <grin>

    Gotta admit that one was a no-brainer!!
    **********
    We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
    -PaulaEdwina

    Comment


    • #62
      My question to each member of this board who has a strong opinion on this subject is : What would you rule if you were the sole judge and are charged with meting out justice after reviewing the past 10 years and PV's behavior? Do you wipe out what he was told 10 years ago to encourage his charitable activities and rehabilitation and tell him it was all in vain and he will NEVER be reinstated or given an opportunity to rejoin the show horse community officially?
      My question to each member of this board who has a strong opinion on this subject is : What would you rule if you were the sole judge and are charged with meting out justice after reviewing the past 10 years and PV's behavior? Do you wipe out what he was told 10 years ago to encourage his charitable activities and rehabilitation and tell him it was all in vain and he will NEVER be reinstated or given an opportunity to rejoin the show horse community officially?

      Every day I deal with criminals who do really vicious things to other human beings and it is just another day at the office. Battery, Aggravated Assault, Rape and even Murder. Most of these criminals are sentenced, many times to probation for a first offense and they re-enter society none the worse for wear for the most part. We are USED to man's inhumanity to man and that is almost "accepted"...however, man's inhumanity to a horse to a horseperson sends us over the edge into a state of complete unforgiveness.
      Well, if you were the CEO of a corporation and a candidate came to you for a job, recommended to you by the wife of a member of the Board of Trustees, because he had done excellent work for a charitable organization she ran, and he was personable, likeable, knowledgeable, everything you could want in a Chief Financial Officer, with just the one little snag that twenty years ago he embezzled a lot of money from a company he worked for, would you hire him?

      Sorry about the elaborate metaphor, but I was trying to find a transgression with less emotional content. It’s a common sense issue. You don’t give an official position to someone who had violated the fundamental tenets of your business.

      PV is still making a living in the horse world, still brokering sales and training behind the scenes. Its not that he’s stigmatized even to the extent that I would have expected. He is not living in a trailer, unable to get a job. He does not need reinstatement to survive.
      Publisher, http://www.endurance-101.com
      Blog: http://blog.seattlepi.com/horsebytes/

      Comment


      • #63
        While I agree that PV's crime is horrible I also see the value in that through his cooperation he made it possible to take out the entire ring of conspirators. This does have value that many of you cannot appreciate if you haven't seen how many times offenders get clean away with crimes because no one will do the dirty work of a CI.
        Sorry, but this does not make my heart bleed in the least. He did this purely to save his own a<span class="ev_code_GREEN">$$</span>. Which by some of the other posts in this forum shows it quite clearly worked, for the man still has clients up the a$$.

        It was all about the MONEY. It is still all about the money. MONEY FOR HIM.

        What a world when a group of such purported high "class"/high dollar people are so eagerly willing & wanting to play with such ilk.

        *use of $$ signs is extremely intentional

        Comment


        • #64
          I think Adventurebeachponies, with a much better way with words, is stating what I was trying to express in earlier posts, when I was accused of vacillating between two sides. There is an emotional side to this, as well as a technical side. One point that Adventurebeach made was that he was encouraged to do charitable works - I for one am not certain anyone (other than PR people encouraged him), BUT, this old goat finds it pertinent that these charitable works just did not happen until the eve of his reinstatement.
          POYBGP, member in good standing.

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by harryjohnson:
            I think Adventurebeachponies, with a much better way with words, is stating what I was trying to express in earlier posts, when I was accused of vacillating between two sides. There is an emotional side to this, as well as a technical side. One point that Adventurebeach made was that he was encouraged to do charitable works - I for one am not certain anyone (other than PR people encouraged him), BUT, this old goat finds it pertinent that these charitable works just did not happen until the eve of his reinstatement.
            If this is the case, then this is a fact that the committee needs to evaluate.

            When a subject comes up for review after committing a crime by a parole board or some other committee called together for that purpose then those are the kinds of things that should be considered.

            The quesions that should be answered are:

            1. Did PV abide by the original terms and conditions of his suspension?

            2. Is there clear and substantial evidence that he is "rehabilitated"?

            3. Did he perform charitable works that contributed to the welfare of horses?

            His sentence was pronounced 10 years ago and that cannot be changed at this point. It can be argued it was too lenient in the first place but it is unfair to change the game 10 years later in my opinion as that is not fair dealing.

            Just my opinion.
            Standing ART I DECKED OUT Dutch/Welsh Pony Stallion - Lifetime Licensed RPSI German Riding PonyBook I, WINDSONG I'M FANCY TOO Welsh Sec A & BRIERWOOD Welsh/TB
            www.adventurebeachponies.com

            Comment


            • #66
              Indeed his sentence cannot be changed after it was handed down, not in the legal system. The USEF suspension however, did give him right to apply for reinstatement. In all of it's ambiguity, the terms with which the reinstatement shall occur are not laid out cast in stone. Thus, with a convincing appeal, he will make it in. I think, as I have said before, that there is egg on the face of USEF, due to the fact that he has complied with the letter and not the spirit of the law. I do agree that showing remorse is not a condition of reinstatement, he has shown none, other than the remorse that he was caught. Other than that, it has been business as usual for him, it is significant in my book however, that Pete Rose has yet to make it back into the graces of the baseball commission, but I truly believe that Mr. Valliere will make it back in to the horse show world on his first go round.
              POYBGP, member in good standing.

              Comment


              • #67
                Hasn't PV been running ads about his "charitable works" for several years now? I know there was one regarding his making donations to animal charities after 9/11, so it's been at least four years.

                To play devil's advocate for a moment, a couple of points to consider...

                Although I know many feel that PV was thumbing his nose at the suspension by continuing to train and be involved in the horse world... consider it from another point of view for a moment. Obviously, from the get-go, he has hoped to be reinstated. It was possible for him to continue to have somewhat of a career and still follow the rules by not being on show grounds. Do you really think it fair to expect him to go out and earn a living as a stockbroker or something for 10 years and THEN come back and ask to be reinstated and come back into the horse world?

                A second point to consider... does "no reinstatement" apply to EVERYONE who was suspended as a result of the insurance fraud scandal? PV has been in the public eye somewhat since he has continued to be involved in showing, so he's kind of borne the brunt of the wrath. But there are a whole bunch of other people who were suspended for 10 years -- it's just that I'm guessing no one really knows what they've been up to for that time.

                I think adventurebeachponies makes an excellent point in that the suspensions are what they are. You might not agree with them, you might think that the then-AHSA should have banned the whole lot of them for life. But, since this is what the AHSA decided to do, as adventurebeachponies said, the game can't be changed at this point.

                I'm also guessing that this has probably happened many times before in the history of AHSA/USEF, and there are probably many people who are members who have done egregious things and been reinstated... it just happened to be before the time of the internet, so the "little people" weren't as aware of it.

                On a separate note, y'all might want to take a look at what the folks on the eventing forum did with their Save the Three-Day campaign. They had an online petition and a website, took out ads in the USEA magazine and COTH, and had a booth at Rolex. You can see the website at http://www.savethe3day.org and I think there are links there to some of the BB discussions.

                Oh, and also, anyone who is interested can submit a Horseman's Forum for the COTH. It's meant for exactly this kind of thing -- starting a dialogue about important issues in the horse world.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Well said Erin. The man is indeed eligible to apply to be reinstated. I would wonder why, at the time of the suspension, more were not concerned enought to petition for a life suspension at that time, and who determined his to be the ten year variety.
                  POYBGP, member in good standing.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Good post Erin.

                    Is there any evidence that the committee suggested to PV that he was expected to give up his profession in order to comply with the "spirit" of their ruling?

                    I think that would have been completely unenforcable and unreasonable and that it was expected of PV is simply wishful thinking by some people. By continuing to work in the industry and being successful is not necessarily "thumbing his nose" at anyone.

                    We all have only one life to life and then we die. The man enjoys horses and apparently has a great deal of talent and ability and he has every right to pursue happiness just as every other American on the planet. It is called freedom and something every one of us cherishes for ourselves but are quick to want to take away from others who offend us.

                    Right now our government is about do things they promised they never would including National ID cards that will have GPS capabilities and national ID numbers. Everytime we empower those in authority to chip away at our rights we give them more power to invade our privacy.

                    USEF recently ruled against a woman who had a private telephone conversation with a client and now some of you seem to want USEF to be able to have some authority and ability to destroy careers of offenders.

                    Let USEF run horseshows and let the Courts run the criminal justice system and keep an eye on both of them that they do not abuse their powers overmuch.
                    Standing ART I DECKED OUT Dutch/Welsh Pony Stallion - Lifetime Licensed RPSI German Riding PonyBook I, WINDSONG I'M FANCY TOO Welsh Sec A & BRIERWOOD Welsh/TB
                    www.adventurebeachponies.com

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      I think that the objection that most of the people has stems from his "pushing the envelope" so to speak - the training sessions via walkie-talkie while within inches of show grounds, enjoying the horse show camper areas which are conveniently called "not part of show grounds", and the fact that the same sort of offense earned one of the suspendees a life suspension. I grant you that the other offender did actually visit ringside, but then again he was not profiting by doing so. Again, the USEF can pretty much do what they want with it, and I do suspect that Mr. Valliere will have more power on his side than the general masses. If the USEF were to bend to what may be a majority of members who did not want him reinstated, I would bet that a civil suit would be in the making on his behalf.
                      POYBGP, member in good standing.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Harry,

                        If those in opposition can provide specific instances and proof that PV was coaching by walkie talkie or cell phone that should be taken into consideration. I am intrigued by the thought of how he could help his client if he couldn't see her rounds however.

                        Did they have closed circuit television and a cameraman filming the rounds live and he saw it real time in an RV? So as soon as the rider existed the ring they were handed a radio to recieve instruction? Seems like this would be pretty hard to hide and would be frowned upon by USEF.

                        That would be pretty high tech and expensive and have to wonder who paid for all that gadgetry and labor?

                        So far, all we have are allegations on a BB and to my knowledge no specific complaint with evidence has been lodged with USEF. Unless some witnesses were willing to come forth with testimony and evidence I would have to say this is heresay.

                        Again, I have no dog in the fight and this thread would be awfully boring if everyone wanted to grab a torch and join the lynchmob
                        Standing ART I DECKED OUT Dutch/Welsh Pony Stallion - Lifetime Licensed RPSI German Riding PonyBook I, WINDSONG I'M FANCY TOO Welsh Sec A & BRIERWOOD Welsh/TB
                        www.adventurebeachponies.com

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Adventure, one of my biggest points has consistently been that no one is truly willing to come forth with anything concrete against him. He enjoys much respect, and I do suspect if the people on here who feel dead set against him were to approach their trainer(s) and speak of this matter, they would be told to back off and let the USEF decide. Anyone wishing to organize had best also take into consideration the repercussions that may arise in doing so. The walkie talkie incidents have been pretty much given as common knowledge, I have as much as heard people laughing about him chatting with Jane Clark in the parking areas, but then again, prisoners often get visits from nuns, so Jane Clark talking to him is not that absurd.
                          POYBGP, member in good standing.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            OK...

                            I will let the cat out of the bag so to speak. I am a licensed bail agent that does a lot of private investigative work in my trade.

                            If the issue is that PV is violating the terms of his original sentence then bust him. If he is blatently doing this then it would be cake to get video evidence to bury his efforts to get reinstated.

                            Just takes money to hire a PI. You want names in South Florida? PM me.

                            See. I don't have a dog in this fight.
                            Standing ART I DECKED OUT Dutch/Welsh Pony Stallion - Lifetime Licensed RPSI German Riding PonyBook I, WINDSONG I'M FANCY TOO Welsh Sec A & BRIERWOOD Welsh/TB
                            www.adventurebeachponies.com

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              He schools his students at WEF on schooling day. I think that's pushing the envelope pretty hard.

                              And I wouldn't be so quick to assume all trainers feel he should be reinstated. I know several who have severed friendships with other people involved in horse killing fiasco.

                              I also wouldn't equate the willingness to do business with him with respect.
                              *****
                              You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                I'd be willing to donate toward a PI to get proof...

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  I would believe, that because he is at the ring "on schooling day" it is considered not being on the grounds of the horse show, because the horse show states it runs from Wednesday to Sunday. Again, the walkie talkie incident(s), he is careful not to go on what is considered "official horse show grounds", again, not in violation of the letter of his suspension, only the spirit of it. He disregard for the feelings of others is not part of the terms of his suspension, and you can rest assured he is not going to actually violate those terms in the next few months. Those against his suspension reinstatement need also consider this, he has had ten years to prepare himself for the moment, this grass roots effort has only a few months to organize against him, and not the very deep pockets of he and his supporters.
                                  POYBGP, member in good standing.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by harryjohnson:
                                    I would believe, that because he is at the ring "on schooling day" it is considered not being on the grounds of the horse show, because the horse show states it runs from Wednesday to Sunday. Again, the walkie talkie incident(s), he is careful not to go on what is considered "official horse show grounds", again, not in violation of the letter of his suspension, only the spirit of it. He disregard for the feelings of others is not part of the terms of his suspension, and you can rest assured he is not going to actually violate those terms in the next few months. Those against his suspension reinstatement need also consider this, he has had ten years to prepare himself for the moment, this grass roots effort has only a few months to organize against him, and not the very deep pockets of he and his supporters.
                                    Talking by walkie talkie is not a violation in my mind...but...actual coaching would be.

                                    If his client is telling how her round went but he isn't "seeing" it by camera I don't think this is a big deal. It would be normal to want to know how his client did and it would be unreasonable to expect them not to communicate after the round.

                                    It would be wrong for him to be actually seeing and coaching her "like" he was actually present at ringside.

                                    I don't blame the guy for trying to make a living and doing the best he can to help his clients.
                                    Standing ART I DECKED OUT Dutch/Welsh Pony Stallion - Lifetime Licensed RPSI German Riding PonyBook I, WINDSONG I'M FANCY TOO Welsh Sec A & BRIERWOOD Welsh/TB
                                    www.adventurebeachponies.com

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      One other thing to think about... (I know, I am SO annoying with the devil's advocate stuff! )

                                      There's always been a lot of anger on these boards toward the people who ARE in good standing who continue to do business with PV.

                                      I have a feeling that had PV actually been shunned from the show world *by the people in it* for the last 10 years, there might be a different feeling toward his reinstatement.

                                      PV wouldn't have been able to continue making a good living in the show world if there weren't a market for his services. And although I'm sure there are plenty who feel that's just plain sucky, and reflects rather poorly on our little horsey universe, it is what it is.

                                      I'm just pointing out that a lot of the anger involved in this issue might not actually be ALL due to PV.

                                      At any rate, kudos to all for making this an actual rational and interesting discussion, rather than the usual "you suck" "no, YOU suck" variety of PV thread.

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        I don't know any of these people. But from my reading of the AHSA's statement from 10 years ago, PV has the right to file for reinstatement. I don't read anything promising to reinstate him regardless of what ammends he has made, merely that they would be taken into consideration. I agree with War Admiral in that his actions so completely violated the USEF's vision statement and the FEI code of conduct that it would be impossible to welcome him back. We would be giving the PETA and animal rights people ammunition that would make sense to the general population, not a good PR move for the USEF. I also agree with HJ that USEF will reinstate. Unless it becomes too uncomfortable for them to do so. Taking this info to the grassroots and also to the general animal loving public can make a difference. Let's not limit ourselves to horse people. As NGB, USEF represents all of us who feel an obligation to protect the animals in our care.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Quite the contrary, Erin!!!! As you pointed out, many of us are on good "terms" with the posters on here who support Mr. Valliere, although we may not agree with them in this case. I too am glad to see it has remained to be a discussion, as I am sure we all are. It is agreed in full that all of us on here are passionate about our horses and our sport, and we can agree on that. I for one would definitely not do business with him in any way, but will not deny the fact that he has some wonderful horses in his care. Do I think he is capable of lapsing into the same behavior that got him where he is today - indeed I do. Can I offer proof, no, of course not. I respect his marketing genius and his apparent transformation, and respect the rights of those who chose to work with him. I question how they can, but it is their choice, not mine.
                                          POYBGP, member in good standing.

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