• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less


  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Having signed the no reinstatement petition I noticed that Laura Stern is back at the horse shows. Her time has expired, so what is the point now of the petition with her name on it?

    I also noticed the ad referencing Paul Vallerie, so again I ask, what is the point? I didn't want to see either of these people back in the horse business, but it appears that for these people and for the other's whose time is coming due this petition has little impact (unfortunately).

    As long as these riders/trainers get support (in any form) from horse related publications, organizations and horse show organizers, has our petition has served its purpose?

    The real mistake was made in the beginning when the AHSA (now USEF) lacked backbone and made it easy for these people back into the fold instead of just banning them for life.


    • The point is to try

      It is too easy for everyone to say well nothing can be done and accept evil as normal. That's what behind most horse abuse "Everyone does it". Somewhere sometime enough people have to care and can make a difference. If we submit rule change proposals that are properly written then those who have been convicted can have their memberships if already granted cancelled. Remember that membership is a privilege and not an entitlement.
      http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


      • Giving this a bump back to the proper page...
        Jen Evans & DaBear


        • There have been 8839 lurking views to date

          If we had sold half of that; there would be 4500 bracelets out there. It does match between the number of posts and the number of signatures.
          http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


          • Here's the PH letter I got in response

            I got permission to repost this, so here it is. Unfortunately, it seems her brother may now be working with PV, but I guess one can't control one's relatives. At least, from what this seems to say, the MAGAZINE will be taking a more active look at things.
            Dear Gina,

            Thank you for your letter. I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

            One of our commitments at Practical Horseman is to work with respected
            trainers. We research their methods, how they are viewed by their peers, and
            with whom they have trained.

            For the reasons you stated, a trainer who is working with Barney Ward would
            not fit this category. Therefore, I feel I owe you an explanation for our
            April cover story-and an apology.

            We have featured Kim Prince in the magazine previously, because she came
            highly recommended by Katie Monahan Prudent. When I approached Kim last year
            about working on another story with us, I did not think to ask her to update
            us on the trainers she works with.

            The first draft of Kim's April story did not mention Barney Ward. We sent
            her the draft to review for accuracy, our standard procedure. It was during
            this review that she added Barney Ward's name.

            The story was difficult to finalize for various reasons. We didn't have the
            complete version to proofread until the last day of our production deadline.
            We were troubled and dismayed to see Barney Ward's name, but under the
            pressure of deadline, we just didn't consider the ramifications of running
            the story and cover-that by doing so, we would be highlighting a trainer who
            no longer fit the stringent criteria we have set for our experts and

            This incident has been a wake-up call to us. Our readers' trust in our
            experts is the backbone of the magazine. We are already developing policies
            to reduce the chance of this happening again.

            We apologize for our serious lapse in judgment.

            Thank you again for your letter.


            Sandy Oliynyk
            Practical Horseman

            656 Quince Rd., Suite 600
            Gaithersburg, MD 20878

            Phone: (301) 977-3900, ext. 139
            Fax: (301) 990-9015
            E-mail: Sandy.Oliynyk@primedia.com


            • nice letter
              Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

              The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”


              • Long was interviewed regarding Kentucky 230

                Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”


                • if TB industry can clean up - so can we



                  Fraudulent sales practices, though frowned upon by most, have long been the dirty laundry that the racing and show worlds have tried to hide. When prominent Thoroughbred owner/breeder Satish Sanan, owner of Padua Stables in Summerfield, Florida, started demanding the racing industry take a hard look at some of its so-called "traditions," the vast majority of people were relieved the issue was finally out on the table. While some disagreed with Sanan's approach in getting the word out, all had to respect the man who had spent roughly $150 million in the previous eight years buying racehorses and farm land.

                  The Alliance for Industry Reform (AIR), the initiative founded by Sanan, was created in early 2004 to get the racing industry to resolve the problems associated with its sales. The AIR motto "Open Book/Fair Sales" was coined to encourage the industry to require transparency in auctions, and to educate owners about some of the unscrupulous practices that occur in horse sales, whether public or private. As a result of this initiative, the industry has rallied around the cause, determined to implement some changes to protect both new and old investors.

                  The goal of AIR from the beginning was to encourage the national ownership body in horse racing, the Thoroughbred Owners' and Breeders' Association (TOBA), to create a task force that would examine the major issues that affect each and every person in the business. Within the general public, there are negative perceptions about the whole industry that result from the dastardly actions of some.

                  "The objective was to make the Thoroughbred auction scene as buyer-friendly as possible," said Cot Campbell, Chairman of TOBA's Sales Integrity Task Force, the task force that arose from AIR. "We focused attention [on the existence of larceny], created awareness on the part of newcomers as to the need for due diligence, and we came up with some measures that would sure as hell retard evil practices in the buying and selling of horses."
                  As a result of AIR's determination and the unselfish commitment of many of the industry's leaders, the Task Force's first goal was to evaluate and recommend solutions in three primary areas: (1) the problem of dual agency, (2) veterinarian and medical disclosures, and (3) ownership disclosures. After just a couple months of intensive discussions and research on the part of Task Force members, the Task Force issued its Code of Ethics on December 16, 2004. While Campbell admitted that it was not a final victory (over fraud), all agreed that the issuance and implementation of a Code of Ethics was a huge step toward improving sales conditions.

                  Bill Casner, chairman of the subcommittee on dual agency and co-owner of WinStar Farm in Lexington, Kentucky which stands such stallions as Distorted Humor, sire of 2003 Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, said recently that his "experience and involvement with the Sales Integrity Task Force and the Sales Integrity Program has been one of the most rewarding assignments that I have been involved with in the horse industry. It was very frustrating and disconcerting to me to know that these despicable practices existed and were virtually tolerated by the industry."
                  Arguably, the most substantial benefit that already has resulted from AIR and the Task Force's work is the public debate and education of the buying population. While AIR and the Task Force have focused primarily on the problems associated with auctions, fraud, whether it is dual agency or a failure to disclose material medical procedures, is a concern in both public and private sales. Private sales are by far the most common means of buying horses for those disciplines recognized by the United States Equestrian Foundation.

                  One of the biggest problems in all sales is the abhorrent practice of dual agency. Agents, those persons who represent and are entrusted with the business of another individual (that person being the "principal"), have duties of loyalty, accounting, and disclosure just like attorneys, accountants, and real estate agents. Dual agency occurs when an agent or trainer serves as the middleman and takes commissions from both the buyer and seller in a transaction without disclosing to both parties that he or she is working for both sides. Without full disclosure of this conflict of interest, this is fraud. Though some in both the racing and show worlds surprisingly still consider this practice acceptable and industry standard, it is a standard that violates the basic principals of business and is against the law. Depending on the laws of the state in which one lives and the facts of a case, an unethical agent who is proven to have defrauded his principal might be required to disgorge the secret profits, pay punitive damages, or spend time in jail.

                  For example, it is fraud when a seller is told by his trainer that his horse is worth only $100,000, but the trainer convinces a third person to buy it for $150,000, and the trainer pockets the extra $50,000 without telling his client that he sold the horse for the higher price. It is fraud when a buyer is told by his agent that a horse can be bought for $150,000, but the seller actually sells the horse for only $100,000, and the agent takes the $50,000 under the table without telling his principal (i.e. the buyer could have bought the horse for $50,000 less but for the misrepresentation of the horse's true selling price). These secret profits are in addition to the commissions these agents are already earning from their clients. It is also a misrepresentation if an agent does not disclose that she is selling a horse to her principal in which she has an ownership interest.

                  ........As an owner and if you do not use an attorney, you need to create a checklist to which you will adhere whether buying or selling a horse. Regardless of what else is on that checklist, the number one rule should be this: HAVE THE TERMS OF THE SALE PUT INTO WRITING. If you are using an agent or a trainer to assist in the transaction, this is even more important since as the principal you likely will not even communicate with the opposite party in the deal. Horses cost more than most cars, and the really good ones usually cost more than most houses. A savvy business person would never consider buying or selling a house or car without putting the terms of the deal in writing and making sure each party to the agreement signed that same document.......
                  Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                  The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”


                  • That bonehead couldn't even get this right!

                    "There is no legislation on the books anywhere in the United States as it relates to (the sale) of show horses and sport horses," said John Long, CEO of Kentucky-based United States Equestrian Federation, the governing body for more than two dozen breeds and competitions, including dressage, eventing and hunter/jumper.
                    We have been covered under the Federal Law in every state but the states individually have not followed up. It's just like the convictions just detailed in the Federal Fraud thread. The Federal government has tried to help us but we have no one in charge smart enough to get us to help ourselves by keeping convicted felons out of the Federation.

                    Well, it's nice anyway that Kentucky was first in line this time. It was Colorado who started the Equine Activity Immunity laws.
                    http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                    • Lord Helpus- my biggest fear of the ad is that it will hurt people like me. Young pro trainer who can barely remember when this all happenned. lets say I have a client new to horses wanting to sponsor me as a grand prix rider and reads all this and thinks that all horse people are like this. Very stereotypical I know but possible.


                      • Lori B- people non reinstated is not a fear of mine. I'm a young pro and from the time I finished being a junior till now, none of these people were allowed to be active members. My point is during the time of suspension for most, they have all run a successful business regardless of being allowed at a horseshow. Do you think reinstatement will really affect them financially? the best way to boycott them is to not train, buy, or sell horses with them. No clients=no $. no $=no business


                        • That is the point mst. You said it, you barely remembered it happening. You need to understand that it did happen, and can never happen again. It wasn't meant to hurt people like you, and it won't. It is education, least it repeat itself. Now it is up to you to educate your new client.
                          Lost in wonder


                          • The point of No-Reinstatement is not punitive

                            mst we are not expecting to put anyone out of business or ban them from horse sports. We do think the Membership in the Federation is a status they don't deserve and the their clients might ask why their trainer cannot attend a show. The horses that died deserve to be remembered and not treated as if they were garbage to be tossed out just to please the ego of some trainier or owner.

                            Our intention is preventative and not punitive. It will be helpful and in the best interests of the sport if those horses in the future are sold down so that people who cannot buy extravagantly priced horses may have an opportunity to purpose such. A horse that doesn't jump 5" fences fast enough or consistently enough could find a wonderful home if the owners were willing to take a loss. We hope this will encourage new trainers not to consider Insurance Fraud as a perfect solution to a bad choice.
                            http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                            • snowbird- i couldn't agree with you more! That would be my wish. Your way of thinking actually is influential to young pros like myself. I back you 100% on your thought but i am fearful not everyone is thinking the same way.


                              • romanchief- I need to rephrase myself. When those horses were actually killed, I was too young to see it or hear the horseshow rumor. However, I remember clearly when it all came out. I was at a horseshow close by to one of the trainers we speak about. The local media picked me out of a crowd of juniors and asked me what my feeling were about such and such doing what they were accused of. I knew the details of what happened from the media released at the time and based my answer on that. At that time, I didn't even know the person we were speaking of and I was scared.

                                On a seperate note, all parties in question, should they be treated equal for the crimes commited? should the actual owner whose horse was killed be treated the same way as the person who gave them the connection?


                                • YES! by all means

                                  If you sleep with dogs you should expect to share the fleas. The Owners need to be treated eqaully since they gave their permission and they voluntarily associated with some one who was abusing horses.

                                  If they didn't give their permission then they should sue said trainer for fraud, deleliction of responsibility and abuse to their horse that involved it's unnecessary death.

                                  For example we all know that horse on 5 grams of bute every day gradually has thinned surfaces on their veins and arteries. When that horse dies on the top of the fence the tradegy is that it didn't need to happen. The bute is masked by a vitamin shot so they get way with it for years and years.

                                  I think like the FEI requires; I would like to see a zero tolerance for any chemical that alters performance or soundness which are the two criteria by which we judge Hunters. I fthat means horses are nerved then we should require every veterinary who performs that surgery to report it to the Federation.

                                  I also think that anyone who is "caught" should be reported to the District Attorney of where that show was held. This is a violation of the Rico Laws against racketeering where the results of any sporting competiton are altered due to the adminstration of medication.

                                  I think the Federation should create a search engine where we can get a complete listing of how many times anyone one person or corporation has been "caught" so innocent owners know who should be avoided.

                                  I would also favor a three times and you "OUT" regulation. These people should not be permitted a membership in the Federation which is an privilege and not an entitlement.

                                  I suspect those who fight so hard to prevent these changes are guilty or they would agree.
                                  http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                                  • Original Poster

                                    Originally posted by mst
                                    On a seperate note, all parties in question, should they be treated equal for the crimes commited? should the actual owner whose horse was killed be treated the same way as the person who gave them the connection?
                                    It's almost impossible, IMO, to try and treat everyone equally in a situation such as this, b/c the circumstances of each crime were so varied. Some owners knew and looked the other way; some owners did NOT know; some owners proactively ASKED the professional in question to make horsie disappear; and so on. Likewise the trainers: some (such as Mr. Valliere) cooperated w/ the government; others stuck their middle finger in the air; some did what they did under extreme duress; others just saw it as a moneymaking proposition and didn't give a hoot about the horse. IMO the way the AHSA handled it originally was the way to go - individual penalties, individual suspensions of varying lengths, taking the individual circumstances into account.

                                    MST, honestly, my feeling is that every professional in this industry should be, and is, judged on the way he or she conducts business. You will live and die by your OWN reputation, not someone else's. Care for your horses impeccably, be straightforward and honest with your clients, and you'll EARN a reputation to be proud of!!
                                    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief


                                    • I have not had a chance to read all 150+ pages of this thread, but I did read the 1st page & last 2 pages... War Admiral, I would sign a petition opposing reinstatement of the list. Has one been drafted, or is everyone sending individual letters?

                                      I do not believe that any of them, especially PV, should be forgiven for murdering those poor horses.

                                      IMO, PV assisting the gov't should not be taken into consideration in determining reinstatement - it was either help the gov't or suffer harsher penalties.


                                      • Here is the link to sign the petition


                                        Yes! We all need to send individual letters to the Board of Directors as well.
                                        http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org


                                        • Laura Stern is reinstated?

                                          Am I missing something?

                                          "Laura Stern's time is up and she is back."???? Does this mean that she, like Nancy Banfield, has been reinstated? When was her hearing?

                                          (Maybe I'm being paranoid. Wait! We're talking about the USEF - there's no such thing!!! ) No, seriously. Many pages ago, I raised the question of whether the USEF was even going to require "reinstatement" hearings since they were merely "honoring AHSA's" suspensions. And, as we all know, USEF continues to strongly insist that they are in no way related to AHSA.

                                          So, that is the question that USEF needs to be asked. Once the suspensions are up, can these people simply join USEF and be members in good standing?

                                          If that is the case, as I suspect it may be, a different petition may be called for and called for quickly. It might an idea to run a rule change through USHJA if USEF itself won't take any action. The USEF July board meeting is coming up and we probably need an answer before then so someone(s) can raise this issue before the board.
                                          "Socrates was a very wise man who went around giving good advice. They poisoned him." Anonymous...