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The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

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  • Having signed the no reinstatement petition I noticed that Laura Stern is back at the horse shows. Her time has expired, so what is the point now of the petition with her name on it?

    I also noticed the ad referencing Paul Vallerie, so again I ask, what is the point? I didn't want to see either of these people back in the horse business, but it appears that for these people and for the other's whose time is coming due this petition has little impact (unfortunately).

    As long as these riders/trainers get support (in any form) from horse related publications, organizations and horse show organizers, has our petition has served its purpose?

    The real mistake was made in the beginning when the AHSA (now USEF) lacked backbone and made it easy for these people back into the fold instead of just banning them for life.

    Comment


    • The point is to try

      It is too easy for everyone to say well nothing can be done and accept evil as normal. That's what behind most horse abuse "Everyone does it". Somewhere sometime enough people have to care and can make a difference. If we submit rule change proposals that are properly written then those who have been convicted can have their memberships if already granted cancelled. Remember that membership is a privilege and not an entitlement.
      http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

      Comment


      • Giving this a bump back to the proper page...
        Jen Evans & DaBear

        Comment


        • There have been 8839 lurking views to date

          If we had sold half of that; there would be 4500 bracelets out there. It does match between the number of posts and the number of signatures.
          http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

          Comment


          • Here's the PH letter I got in response

            I got permission to repost this, so here it is. Unfortunately, it seems her brother may now be working with PV, but I guess one can't control one's relatives. At least, from what this seems to say, the MAGAZINE will be taking a more active look at things.
            ------------
            Dear Gina,

            Thank you for your letter. I appreciate your thoughtful comments.

            One of our commitments at Practical Horseman is to work with respected
            trainers. We research their methods, how they are viewed by their peers, and
            with whom they have trained.

            For the reasons you stated, a trainer who is working with Barney Ward would
            not fit this category. Therefore, I feel I owe you an explanation for our
            April cover story-and an apology.

            We have featured Kim Prince in the magazine previously, because she came
            highly recommended by Katie Monahan Prudent. When I approached Kim last year
            about working on another story with us, I did not think to ask her to update
            us on the trainers she works with.

            The first draft of Kim's April story did not mention Barney Ward. We sent
            her the draft to review for accuracy, our standard procedure. It was during
            this review that she added Barney Ward's name.

            The story was difficult to finalize for various reasons. We didn't have the
            complete version to proofread until the last day of our production deadline.
            We were troubled and dismayed to see Barney Ward's name, but under the
            pressure of deadline, we just didn't consider the ramifications of running
            the story and cover-that by doing so, we would be highlighting a trainer who
            no longer fit the stringent criteria we have set for our experts and
            stories.

            This incident has been a wake-up call to us. Our readers' trust in our
            experts is the backbone of the magazine. We are already developing policies
            to reduce the chance of this happening again.

            We apologize for our serious lapse in judgment.

            Thank you again for your letter.

            Sincerely,

            Sandy Oliynyk
            Editor
            Practical Horseman

            656 Quince Rd., Suite 600
            Gaithersburg, MD 20878

            Phone: (301) 977-3900, ext. 139
            Fax: (301) 990-9015
            E-mail: Sandy.Oliynyk@primedia.com

            Comment


            • nice letter
              Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

              The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

              Comment


              • Long was interviewed regarding Kentucky 230

                http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/14189381.htm
                Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

                Comment


                • if TB industry can clean up - so can we

                  http://www.grayharris.com/news.php?ACTION=print&ID=618

                  excerpt

                  Fraudulent sales practices, though frowned upon by most, have long been the dirty laundry that the racing and show worlds have tried to hide. When prominent Thoroughbred owner/breeder Satish Sanan, owner of Padua Stables in Summerfield, Florida, started demanding the racing industry take a hard look at some of its so-called "traditions," the vast majority of people were relieved the issue was finally out on the table. While some disagreed with Sanan's approach in getting the word out, all had to respect the man who had spent roughly $150 million in the previous eight years buying racehorses and farm land.

                  The Alliance for Industry Reform (AIR), the initiative founded by Sanan, was created in early 2004 to get the racing industry to resolve the problems associated with its sales. The AIR motto "Open Book/Fair Sales" was coined to encourage the industry to require transparency in auctions, and to educate owners about some of the unscrupulous practices that occur in horse sales, whether public or private. As a result of this initiative, the industry has rallied around the cause, determined to implement some changes to protect both new and old investors.

                  The goal of AIR from the beginning was to encourage the national ownership body in horse racing, the Thoroughbred Owners' and Breeders' Association (TOBA), to create a task force that would examine the major issues that affect each and every person in the business. Within the general public, there are negative perceptions about the whole industry that result from the dastardly actions of some.

                  "The objective was to make the Thoroughbred auction scene as buyer-friendly as possible," said Cot Campbell, Chairman of TOBA's Sales Integrity Task Force, the task force that arose from AIR. "We focused attention [on the existence of larceny], created awareness on the part of newcomers as to the need for due diligence, and we came up with some measures that would sure as hell retard evil practices in the buying and selling of horses."
                  As a result of AIR's determination and the unselfish commitment of many of the industry's leaders, the Task Force's first goal was to evaluate and recommend solutions in three primary areas: (1) the problem of dual agency, (2) veterinarian and medical disclosures, and (3) ownership disclosures. After just a couple months of intensive discussions and research on the part of Task Force members, the Task Force issued its Code of Ethics on December 16, 2004. While Campbell admitted that it was not a final victory (over fraud), all agreed that the issuance and implementation of a Code of Ethics was a huge step toward improving sales conditions.

                  Bill Casner, chairman of the subcommittee on dual agency and co-owner of WinStar Farm in Lexington, Kentucky which stands such stallions as Distorted Humor, sire of 2003 Kentucky Derby winner Funny Cide, said recently that his "experience and involvement with the Sales Integrity Task Force and the Sales Integrity Program has been one of the most rewarding assignments that I have been involved with in the horse industry. It was very frustrating and disconcerting to me to know that these despicable practices existed and were virtually tolerated by the industry."
                  Arguably, the most substantial benefit that already has resulted from AIR and the Task Force's work is the public debate and education of the buying population. While AIR and the Task Force have focused primarily on the problems associated with auctions, fraud, whether it is dual agency or a failure to disclose material medical procedures, is a concern in both public and private sales. Private sales are by far the most common means of buying horses for those disciplines recognized by the United States Equestrian Foundation.

                  One of the biggest problems in all sales is the abhorrent practice of dual agency. Agents, those persons who represent and are entrusted with the business of another individual (that person being the "principal"), have duties of loyalty, accounting, and disclosure just like attorneys, accountants, and real estate agents. Dual agency occurs when an agent or trainer serves as the middleman and takes commissions from both the buyer and seller in a transaction without disclosing to both parties that he or she is working for both sides. Without full disclosure of this conflict of interest, this is fraud. Though some in both the racing and show worlds surprisingly still consider this practice acceptable and industry standard, it is a standard that violates the basic principals of business and is against the law. Depending on the laws of the state in which one lives and the facts of a case, an unethical agent who is proven to have defrauded his principal might be required to disgorge the secret profits, pay punitive damages, or spend time in jail.

                  For example, it is fraud when a seller is told by his trainer that his horse is worth only $100,000, but the trainer convinces a third person to buy it for $150,000, and the trainer pockets the extra $50,000 without telling his client that he sold the horse for the higher price. It is fraud when a buyer is told by his agent that a horse can be bought for $150,000, but the seller actually sells the horse for only $100,000, and the agent takes the $50,000 under the table without telling his principal (i.e. the buyer could have bought the horse for $50,000 less but for the misrepresentation of the horse's true selling price). These secret profits are in addition to the commissions these agents are already earning from their clients. It is also a misrepresentation if an agent does not disclose that she is selling a horse to her principal in which she has an ownership interest.

                  ........As an owner and if you do not use an attorney, you need to create a checklist to which you will adhere whether buying or selling a horse. Regardless of what else is on that checklist, the number one rule should be this: HAVE THE TERMS OF THE SALE PUT INTO WRITING. If you are using an agent or a trainer to assist in the transaction, this is even more important since as the principal you likely will not even communicate with the opposite party in the deal. Horses cost more than most cars, and the really good ones usually cost more than most houses. A savvy business person would never consider buying or selling a house or car without putting the terms of the deal in writing and making sure each party to the agreement signed that same document.......
                  Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

                  The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”

                  Comment


                  • That bonehead couldn't even get this right!

                    "There is no legislation on the books anywhere in the United States as it relates to (the sale) of show horses and sport horses," said John Long, CEO of Kentucky-based United States Equestrian Federation, the governing body for more than two dozen breeds and competitions, including dressage, eventing and hunter/jumper.
                    We have been covered under the Federal Law in every state but the states individually have not followed up. It's just like the convictions just detailed in the Federal Fraud thread. The Federal government has tried to help us but we have no one in charge smart enough to get us to help ourselves by keeping convicted felons out of the Federation.

                    Well, it's nice anyway that Kentucky was first in line this time. It was Colorado who started the Equine Activity Immunity laws.
                    http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                    Comment


                    • Lord Helpus- my biggest fear of the ad is that it will hurt people like me. Young pro trainer who can barely remember when this all happenned. lets say I have a client new to horses wanting to sponsor me as a grand prix rider and reads all this and thinks that all horse people are like this. Very stereotypical I know but possible.

                      Comment


                      • Lori B- people non reinstated is not a fear of mine. I'm a young pro and from the time I finished being a junior till now, none of these people were allowed to be active members. My point is during the time of suspension for most, they have all run a successful business regardless of being allowed at a horseshow. Do you think reinstatement will really affect them financially? the best way to boycott them is to not train, buy, or sell horses with them. No clients=no $. no $=no business

                        Comment


                        • That is the point mst. You said it, you barely remembered it happening. You need to understand that it did happen, and can never happen again. It wasn't meant to hurt people like you, and it won't. It is education, least it repeat itself. Now it is up to you to educate your new client.
                          Lost in wonder

                          Comment


                          • The point of No-Reinstatement is not punitive

                            mst we are not expecting to put anyone out of business or ban them from horse sports. We do think the Membership in the Federation is a status they don't deserve and the their clients might ask why their trainer cannot attend a show. The horses that died deserve to be remembered and not treated as if they were garbage to be tossed out just to please the ego of some trainier or owner.

                            Our intention is preventative and not punitive. It will be helpful and in the best interests of the sport if those horses in the future are sold down so that people who cannot buy extravagantly priced horses may have an opportunity to purpose such. A horse that doesn't jump 5" fences fast enough or consistently enough could find a wonderful home if the owners were willing to take a loss. We hope this will encourage new trainers not to consider Insurance Fraud as a perfect solution to a bad choice.
                            http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                            Comment


                            • snowbird- i couldn't agree with you more! That would be my wish. Your way of thinking actually is influential to young pros like myself. I back you 100% on your thought but i am fearful not everyone is thinking the same way.

                              Comment


                              • romanchief- I need to rephrase myself. When those horses were actually killed, I was too young to see it or hear the horseshow rumor. However, I remember clearly when it all came out. I was at a horseshow close by to one of the trainers we speak about. The local media picked me out of a crowd of juniors and asked me what my feeling were about such and such doing what they were accused of. I knew the details of what happened from the media released at the time and based my answer on that. At that time, I didn't even know the person we were speaking of and I was scared.

                                On a seperate note, all parties in question, should they be treated equal for the crimes commited? should the actual owner whose horse was killed be treated the same way as the person who gave them the connection?

                                Comment


                                • YES! by all means

                                  If you sleep with dogs you should expect to share the fleas. The Owners need to be treated eqaully since they gave their permission and they voluntarily associated with some one who was abusing horses.

                                  If they didn't give their permission then they should sue said trainer for fraud, deleliction of responsibility and abuse to their horse that involved it's unnecessary death.

                                  For example we all know that horse on 5 grams of bute every day gradually has thinned surfaces on their veins and arteries. When that horse dies on the top of the fence the tradegy is that it didn't need to happen. The bute is masked by a vitamin shot so they get way with it for years and years.

                                  I think like the FEI requires; I would like to see a zero tolerance for any chemical that alters performance or soundness which are the two criteria by which we judge Hunters. I fthat means horses are nerved then we should require every veterinary who performs that surgery to report it to the Federation.

                                  I also think that anyone who is "caught" should be reported to the District Attorney of where that show was held. This is a violation of the Rico Laws against racketeering where the results of any sporting competiton are altered due to the adminstration of medication.

                                  I think the Federation should create a search engine where we can get a complete listing of how many times anyone one person or corporation has been "caught" so innocent owners know who should be avoided.

                                  I would also favor a three times and you "OUT" regulation. These people should not be permitted a membership in the Federation which is an privilege and not an entitlement.

                                  I suspect those who fight so hard to prevent these changes are guilty or they would agree.
                                  http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    Originally posted by mst
                                    On a seperate note, all parties in question, should they be treated equal for the crimes commited? should the actual owner whose horse was killed be treated the same way as the person who gave them the connection?
                                    It's almost impossible, IMO, to try and treat everyone equally in a situation such as this, b/c the circumstances of each crime were so varied. Some owners knew and looked the other way; some owners did NOT know; some owners proactively ASKED the professional in question to make horsie disappear; and so on. Likewise the trainers: some (such as Mr. Valliere) cooperated w/ the government; others stuck their middle finger in the air; some did what they did under extreme duress; others just saw it as a moneymaking proposition and didn't give a hoot about the horse. IMO the way the AHSA handled it originally was the way to go - individual penalties, individual suspensions of varying lengths, taking the individual circumstances into account.

                                    MST, honestly, my feeling is that every professional in this industry should be, and is, judged on the way he or she conducts business. You will live and die by your OWN reputation, not someone else's. Care for your horses impeccably, be straightforward and honest with your clients, and you'll EARN a reputation to be proud of!!
                                    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                                    Comment


                                    • I have not had a chance to read all 150+ pages of this thread, but I did read the 1st page & last 2 pages... War Admiral, I would sign a petition opposing reinstatement of the list. Has one been drafted, or is everyone sending individual letters?

                                      I do not believe that any of them, especially PV, should be forgiven for murdering those poor horses.

                                      IMO, PV assisting the gov't should not be taken into consideration in determining reinstatement - it was either help the gov't or suffer harsher penalties.

                                      Comment


                                      • Here is the link to sign the petition

                                        http://new.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

                                        Yes! We all need to send individual letters to the Board of Directors as well.
                                        http://www.usAHSA.org and http://www.noreinstatement.org

                                        Comment


                                        • Laura Stern is reinstated?

                                          Am I missing something?

                                          "Laura Stern's time is up and she is back."???? Does this mean that she, like Nancy Banfield, has been reinstated? When was her hearing?

                                          (Maybe I'm being paranoid. Wait! We're talking about the USEF - there's no such thing!!! ) No, seriously. Many pages ago, I raised the question of whether the USEF was even going to require "reinstatement" hearings since they were merely "honoring AHSA's" suspensions. And, as we all know, USEF continues to strongly insist that they are in no way related to AHSA.

                                          So, that is the question that USEF needs to be asked. Once the suspensions are up, can these people simply join USEF and be members in good standing?

                                          If that is the case, as I suspect it may be, a different petition may be called for and called for quickly. It might an idea to run a rule change through USHJA if USEF itself won't take any action. The USEF July board meeting is coming up and we probably need an answer before then so someone(s) can raise this issue before the board.
                                          "Socrates was a very wise man who went around giving good advice. They poisoned him." Anonymous...

                                          Comment

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