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The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

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  • I think the SI article was about the mess coming out and people getting prison time. This is about reinstatement. Letting the fox back into the hen house is against mainstream mores. Sponsors don't like to be associated with that
    http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

    Comment


    • Posted Dec. 14, 2005 01:22 AM
      I think the SI artticle was about the mess coming out and people getting prison time. This is about reinstatement. Letting the fox back into the hen house is against mainstream mores. Sponsors don't like to be associated with that
      One would think that sponsors would be more apt to pull the bucks then... but hey... I'm sure that the Average American would really be twisted over the re-instatement.

      Comment


      • It's about press isn't it. Hence the petition.
        http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

        Comment


        • If this is about press,Broberry... than why waste time with the organization that handed down the suspension? Call Greta, Rita ,Bill and Geraldo... this is something the American Public can really sink their teeth into.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by xegeba:
            <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This rule is aimed more at the "assistant" or "alternate" trainer (person B) who is the one who shows up with horse C on the show grounds, while suspended person A is still collecting training fees for Horse C, and paying person B for being there.
            So as long as A is not getting any renumeration ... and not paying B, then C's owner is good to go? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That is how I read it- but I am not a steward, nor a representative of USEF.

            Of course, if the owner of horse C takes out an ad giving "all the credit" to suspended person A, then horse C's owner might be in violation for exhibiting "for the reputation" of suspended person A.
            Janet

            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

            Comment


            • Nope....USEF will listen, and they'll pay attention. The credibilty of the NGB will be seriously damaged both domestically and internationally if the reinstatement is allowed. If the mainstream media got a hold of the story, should it happen, you can kiss any future horse show coverage by any major network goodbye.
              i think this is called delusions of grandure. don't you people have anything else to do than spend all day and night conjuring up a vendetta against a human being? what gives? you must live loveless lives. without forgiveness there can be no love.
              from "seat of the soul" by gary zukow"
              "though no one can go back and make a brand new start, anyone can start right now and make a brand new ending. that is what paul is doing. to those of you that refuse to forgive hime for his past mistakes, allow me some words to help guide you out of your self-imposed darkness.
              one forgives to the degree that one loves. when you choose not to forgive, the experience that you do not forgive sticks with you. when you choose not to forgive, you basically agree to wear very dark gruesome sunglasses that distort everything, and it is you who are forced every day to look at life through thoses contaminated lenses because you have chosen to keep them."

              and finally:

              there is so much bad in the best of us and so much good in the worst of us that is doesn't behoove any of us to talk about the rest of us.

              and finally for those in spite of everything will never give paul his due,words from benjamin jowett :never retreat, never explain. get it done and let them howl"

              vanessa redfern, one who considers paul a great and loyal friend, a great horseman, and the finest trainer i have ever ridden with. my horses have never gotten better care, not have i ever gotten better instruction. and to boot he is truly one of the kindest, most giving person i have been lucky to have had in my life for 15 years. it doesn't get any better than to ride at acres wild farm. we are a joyfull family in every way. drop in some day and you'll see.

              Comment


              • Of course, if the owner of horse Cakes out an ad giving "all the credit" to suspended person A, then horse C's owner might be in violation for exhibiting "for the reputation" of suspended person A.
                owners give 'all the credit' to anyone other than themselves? Thank You maybe... Does the rule prohibit appreciation?

                Comment


                • Really... what? edited to say... broberry... where did your "Really' go?

                  Comment


                  • hold on I'm still typing...
                    http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

                    Comment


                    • Oxer... I wish you the best Hugs and Kisses Do you sell the glasses you're wearing?
                      http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

                      Comment


                      • first it was one horse. secondly it was not cruely put down., three tell me your source for the "ratting out his friends and wearing a wire" fourth--do you know paul?, have you ever trained with him?, do you know how he feels about horses?, do you know how long he has suffered over this? and if you don't train with him why do you care? is this your goal in life to interfere with other people and decide for them whom they should ride with depending on your criteria? do you do this just in riding or in other areas of your life as well?
                        why don't you simple mind your business and ride with whomever you wish. that's your business and those of us who ride with paul feel that it is our business. so that would be a good start. ok?
                        -Oxer
                        Apparently PV trains people as well...
                        http://www.petitiononline.com/valliere/petition.html

                        Comment


                        • friend, a great horseman, and the finest trainer i have ever ridden with. my horses have never gotten better care, not have i ever gotten better instruction
                          Sorry, not a horseman. That word and his name should NEVER appear in the same sentence together. What is it that you do not understand? A true horseman would not kill a horse for insurance money, to save face, because of greed, because of pride. They would find the horse another job, realize they made a mistake and move on. That is the nature of the sport.

                          When is someone going to realize the horses come first? Everything should be about them, making them comfortable, happy and keeping them safe. It is our responsibility to make sure they are safe, not murder them because they didn't pan out. They allow us to ask them to do things they really weren't meant to do, they trust us and rely on us to take care of them.

                          You do know that people who commit crimes in a profession, while they may have served their time, are NOT allowed to practice their chosen profession. That goes for Doctors, Lawyers, Stockbrokers, Teachers, Accountants. Why is he so special that it should be different for him? He has managed to not really have served his suspension, he has managed to be too special for that too.

                          PV needs to get a new profession = "Do you want fries with that? "

                          Maybe then people would let it go. He does not belong anywhere near a horse. It's not a vendetta, it's not vengence, it's just wrong. The horses have no voice, we are their voice.

                          I wish the man a long and happy life, just not in this business.

                          Lynda

                          Comment


                          • This thread is pretty intense. As it should be. The subject is controversial, and is a perfect illustration that deeds once done can't be undone, and will follow the doer throughout life, and beyond.

                            That in itself is a pretty intense statement, and is one reason I'm ambivalent about reinstatement.

                            Reinstating these individuals within the parameters of the rules of the NGB isn't an effort by anyone to negate what they have done in the past. That will ALWAYS hang over them, and those who associate with them. They have been judged according to the rules; the suspensions they received are drawing to an end. So in this sense, I can't see a reason that those who have sat out their time shouldn't be readmitted, not with a clean slate, but on a probationary basis.

                            However, it can be argued, and should be, IMO, that certain of these individuals have adhered to the letter, but not the spirit of the parameters of their suspensions. Insofar as this is an indication of a lack of respect for the NGB's rules, a failure to accept the gravity of their situation, and has not resulted in as severe a level of punishment as was intended by the original period of suspension, I would support an extension of the suspensions in these cases, even by several more years.

                            <<The credibilty of the NGB will be seriously damaged both domestically and internationally if the reinstatement is allowed. If the mainstream media got a hold of the story, should it happen, you can kiss any future horse show coverage by any major network goodbye.>>

                            Statements like this bother me, alot. Neither "coverage by major networks" nor our NGB's credibility is hanging in the balance here. If as much effort as planned by those on this thread were directed toward petitioning the networks FOR COVERAGE, instead of aiming at a few individuals whose fate should PROPERLY rest with the committees within the NGB whose job it is to deal with them, we might actually get coverage.

                            Then again, I'm not sure a cyber mob of overexited ladies bent on exacting their own brand of vengence would fit any particular sponsor's demographic.

                            To clarify, I am on the fence here. The question that is facing the NGB on these people is NOT about whether what they did is right or wrong-it was very wrong, as wrong as it can get. And I don't agree with those who continued to do business AT THE HORSE SHOWS, or on the immediate periphery of the horse show grounds with these folks.

                            But our rules don't allow for the NON-consideration of these people for reinstatement--they must be allowed to ask for consideration. If the rules don't allow for an extension of their suspensions, then they must be readmitted. I'm betting that it won't be so black and white in some cases, and that a probationary status will be devised, as it should be.

                            But however well-intentioned, the mob mentality gathering steam here should not influence the process one way or another, and should not be the basis upon which the hearing committee makes their decisions.

                            Comment


                            • First of all, forgiveness does not equal the reacquirement of all past rights and priveleges. Forgiveness is much more about the person doing the forgiving than it is about the person being forgiven. I can forgive the doctor who ruined my friend's life, but it doesn't mean I think he should be allowed to practice medicine.

                              It is also my personal opinion that RP was not the first horse Paul had killed. I believe it was the first time he was caught.

                              Lastly, as recounted elsewhere on one of these threads, I have encountered Paul in other situations and he did nothing to endear himself to me then, either.

                              I have no doubt your barn is a happy, cheerful place. After all, you all share the exact same moral code. The children following the Pied Piper of Hamlin were also all glad to do it.
                              *****
                              You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by xegeba:
                                <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But it's safe to assume he will
                                Why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                why? is right. why should he even bother? you are all so insistent that he's training/schooling/coaching from the parking lot (i've never seen it, so wouldn't know, nor do i care to know) so why should he even bother applying for reinstatement?
                                Different Times Equestrian Ventures at Hidden Spring Ranch
                                www.DifferentTimesEquestrianVentures.com

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Oxer:
                                  my horses have never gotten better care.
                                  Yeah, it's all great until that morning you get the call that your horse is dead.

                                  Unless you think something would prevent him from figuring out a way to do this again.

                                  That's why I couldn't keep my horse there. I'm positive they all receive top-notch care while they are ALIVE, it's what could happen to them if they are not performing "up to par" that scares me.

                                  But that's just me.

                                  -Flip

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Flipper K.:
                                    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Oxer:
                                    my horses have never gotten better care.
                                    Yeah, it's all great until that morning you get the call that your horse is dead.

                                    Unless you think something would prevent him from figuring out a way to do this again.

                                    That's why I couldn't keep my horse there. I'm positive they all receive top-notch care while they are ALIVE, it's what could happen to them if they are not performing "up to par" that scares me.

                                    But that's just me.

                                    -Flip </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

                                    He probably TOLD her he would not do it to her horse, so, therefore, it is true

                                    Comment


                                    • The question that I would like answered by those who seem to support reinstatement for these people, or who question the value of keeping them out of the USEF, is this: Do you or do you not believe that they killed, or arranged for the killing of, horses? Because, if you don't believe that they did the things they were convicted of, that seems like one kind of crazy. And if you DO believe they did those things, and you still want to see them included in this organization which states that a concern for the welfare of horses is part of its bylaws, then that strikes me as a different variety of crazy. But either way, crazy. If someone harms or neglects an animal because of ignorance, or poverty, or a momentary cruelty born of anger, those are all terrible things, but under proper circumstances can be forgiven if the guilty party mends their ways and accepts their punishment. But if a person who knows better, who suffers no inability to supply proper care, CHOOSES to do what these folks were convicted of doing, then I think that regardless of boards or bylaws or organizational politics, that person should be forbidden to engage in any business involving animals, and it's the responsibility of those who claim to care for the wellbeing of animals to do their part to enforce such restrictions. Hardly hysteria, but simple justice. The example given above regarding the permanent disbarment of lawyers and doctors for certain kinds of crimes related to the practice of their profession seems relevant here.
                                      I tolerate all kinds of animal idiosyncrasies.
                                      I've found that I don't tolerate people idiosyncrasies as well. - Casey09

                                      Comment


                                      • Forgiveness is highly overrated, and in this circumstance, irrelevant. We could choose to forgive every murderer in prison but that wouldn't involve letting them out to be among those he hurt. There is something so morally bankrupt in what these people did that I would personally never forgive them and could not be in their presence without feeling physically ill. And, as usual, I am astonished that everyone does not feel as I do.

                                        Comment


                                        • Please count me in on the petition.

                                          A donation to the ASPCA in honor of the horses who were killed during these scandals would be nice. I lent out my copy of "Hot Blood" years ago, and never got it back, so I don't remember all of the names - can anyone refresh my memory?

                                          Rub the Lamp
                                          Belgium Waffle
                                          Rainman
                                          Roseau Platiere
                                          Empire
                                          Charisma
                                          In loving memory of Chutney (1977 - 2008)

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