barefoot performance horses - questions

[JB]

PB, could you pleeeeeeeze explain how *you* see that jumping picture as dangerous. No one else sees anything other than a normal landing stride.

[PaulBunyon]

Originally Posted by luvmytbs

I have to disagree here, from my experience only: The more the horses are used, the more foot they grow. And if in constant work on diverse (and abrasive) footing, the feet will self trim and balance as they should. Doing approx. 18 miles a day on the track barefoot does not wear their feet excessively, and promotes growth according to need.

Would you be willing to subject your horse(s) to the 'Amish experiment' I proposed?

How about having them worked by a Standardbred trainer, for a period of a minimum of 90 days, on a limestone track, at the same level of training as any other trotter or pacer? Of course, daily records would be kept on any pertinent measurments and other information.

Can you tell me how the 18 miles/day number is arrived at, if this is done 7 days/week and 365 days/year, what the track surface consists of and how many horses are involved?

Are you aware of any horses that are in training for say, the Tevis Cup, who are training barefoot and will compete barefoot in the ride?

To your knowledge, have any barefoot horses successfully competed in the Puissance? The Rolex? By successfully competed, I don't mean 'merely completed', I mean finished in the Top 10. OK, for the sake of discussion, the Top 25.

Are you aware of any noted U.S. trainer of record of flat track racing thoroughbreds or for that matter, quarter horses,who trains, competes and wins with his/her horses barefoot? Other than Simon Earle, do you know of any other trainer who is successfully training and competing barefoot racehorses? If so, I would like to know all the particulars.

Other than Ms. Hindle and her two horses, do you know of any other dressage riders who are successfully competing their horses barefoot at that level?

For the record, I am not trying to be confrontational here. Luvmytbs has made some statements about hoof growth and wear and I am merely trying to determine whether or not her observations are applicable across the board.

[serendipitystablesnc]

The issue again is a management one, not a performance one. The fact is, the vast majority of the horses who are competing at high levels live in stalls. It is widely accepted that unless the horse is moving around enough to promote growth, then no, his feet won't grow enough to be able to withstand the work he is doing. His feet will not have ample time striking the ground to wear correctly, resulting in flares, chipping, breaking, generally unhealthy foot. Thus, horse in stall = need for shoes.

But this boils down to it's the horse in the stall needing the shoes, not the horse at the higher levels needing the shoes.

[luvmytbs]

Originally Posted by LarkspurCO

luvmytbs, what sort of track do you mean? For how many days in a row?

Churchill Downs, spring meet which last approx. 2 and a half months. Dark on Mondays and Tuesdays, so five days a week: Ponying in the mornings while exercising and ponying for 11 races in the afternoons.
Fall meet: the same. Between meets exercising time in the mornings, exercising in the mornings is seven days a week.

Originally Posted by LarkspurCO

There are endurance races around here over abrasive rock (a lot of volcanic rock I think) where a horse will wear through almost an entire new steel shoe in a single day. Could a hoof actually grow this fast? That would mean an entire new hoof in 14-16 days, depending on the horse.

50 mile endurance races are done by barefoot horses, some go further. Their feet are conditioned to do so.
Horses in the wild travel up to twenty miles a day with no excessive wear.

[PaulBunyon]

Originally Posted by luvmytbs

Churchill Downs,

How abrasive would you say the track surface is?

50 mile endurance races are done by barefoot horses, some go further. Their feet are conditioned to do so.

Not always, as evidenced by those who find it necessary to either boot or shoe their horse(s) for some rides. Darolyn Butler is the first that comes to mind.

Horses in the wild travel up to twenty miles a day with no excessive wear.

Every day? Over what period of time? At what speed/gait? With someone on their back or sitting in a cart/buggy/wagon/whatever/ behind them?

Even the Western Indians found it necessary to 'boot' their horses at times, and who can argue that those ponies were not living the 'natural' lifestyle in all its incarnations? One diff erence is however that if one of those ponies got too sore to carry on, it usually ended up in the stew pot or some other equally life ending situation.

[LarkspurCO]

Originally Posted by luvmytbs

50 mile endurance races are done by barefoot horses, some go further. Their feet are conditioned to do so.

I believe that. I also believe there IS a limit to the growth rate of hooves, so this is not possible for all horses on all surfaces. It does not compute. A new steel shoe worn thin in a single day - how could a hoof possibly handle this? I don't think the Churchill Downs track is comparable to granite and volcanic rock.

[luvmytbs]

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

Would you be willing to subject your horse(s) to the 'Amish experiment' I proposed?

LOL, I would not let any Amish touch any of my horses, sorry, I like my horses too much.

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

How about having them worked by a Standardbred trainer, for a period of a minimum of 90 days, on a limestone track, at the same level of training as any other trotter or pacer? Of course, daily records would be kept on any pertinent measurments and other information.

After my horses were conditioned to that surface, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But THEY would have a problem with trotting....

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

Can you tell me how the 18 miles/day number is arrived at, if this is done 7 days/week and 365 days/year, what the track surface consists of and how many horses are involved?

Answered to Lurkspur: Churchill Downs track, ponying in the mornings seven days a weeks as well 11 races in the afternoons five days a week during a meet.

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

Are you aware of any horses that are in training for say, the Tevis Cup, who are training barefoot and will compete barefoot in the ride?

Sorry, don't know anything about the Tevis Cup. Perhaps that would a question to direct to this horse:
http://www.thehorseshoof.com/barefootperf_endu.html

or Darolyn Butler:

http://www.horseridingfun.com/darolynbutler.html

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

To your knowledge, have any barefoot horses successfully competed in the Puissance? The Rolex? By successfully competed, I don't mean 'merely completed', I mean finished in the Top 10. OK, for the sake of discussion, the Top 25.

I don't believe you are allowed to compete barefoot at those levels - yet.

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

Are you aware of any noted U.S. trainer of record of flat track racing thoroughbreds or for that matter, quarter horses,who trains, competes and wins with his/her horses barefoot? Other than Simon Earle, do you know of any other trainer who is successfully training and competing barefoot racehorses? If so, I would like to know all the particulars.

The Derby horse Brother Derek was trained all summer last year barefoot.
Again I don't believe that big tracks in the U.S. let you race barefoot. A friend of mine's uncle did sneak a barefoot horse into a race years ago and won. Next time out, he tried to enter "barefoot" in the program and wasn't allowed to start.

Aside from Simon Earle in the UK, there is an outfit on the east coast now, who are sarting all their two year olds in training without shoes and have stated they would continue that route. I can't recall the outfit, I believe it was in Maryland?

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

For the record, I am not trying to be confrontational here. Luvmytbs has made some statements about hoof growth and wear and I am merely trying to determine whether or not her observations are applicable across the board.

I didn't take it as confrontational at all. Things are changing, and with all change, it takes time and recognition.

[luvmytbs]

Originally Posted by LarkspurCO

A new steel shoe worn thin in a single day - how could a hoof possibly handle this?

Can you show us a steel shoe that wore in a day?

[PaulBunyon]

I'm not LarkspurCo, but I could probably find several aluminum and/or steel shoes that were worn out in less than two weeks.

I'd also like to know where it has been shown that horses have the ability to grow an infinite amount of hoof in response to wear, in a definate time frame.

It would be an interesting experiment to shoe a horse with a steel shoe of an agreed upon thickness, work the horse on an abrasive surface for a given distance, and then see how much shoe was worn away. Before we did this though, we would have to determine what the wear co-efficient of hoof is , what the wear co-efficient of the steel in the shoe is, and then find the correct multiplier to equalize the two measurments.

[LarkspurCO]

Originally Posted by luvmytbs

Can you show us a steel shoe that wore in a day?

No, but if you're really interested in seeing one you can call Cliff Carroll, owner of Cliff Carroll's Horseshoer Supply in Larkspur, Colorado, and ask him if he still has one. He is the person who worked the races (then as a farrier) and told me about the shoe wear. I suppose he could have been lying, but I have no reason to doubt him.

[cosmos mom]

pb- you actually never really did answer the question of why you thought the horse was in a dangerous position...Surprizing for someone who constantly rambles on and on- several people have asked you... could it be that you are WRONG? ::

[PaulBunyon]

Originally Posted by cosmos mom

pb- you actually never really did answer the question of why you thought the horse was in a dangerous position...Surprizing for someone who constantly rambles on and on- several people have asked you... could it be that you are WRONG? ::

Moi? Doubtful. Besides, I did infact answer the question some while back(see post # 42 on this thread). To recap:While it is true than upon landing from a jump, a horse will land with one foreleg striking the ground just prior to the other. In the photo in question, it appeared to me that there was a longer than 'just prior' interval occurring.

You may also recall that later on in the thread, in response to your asking yet again for my reply and also your divining the future, I said:

Originally Posted by PB

Asked and answered

Glad to hear you have no spinal cord injuries.

I am also heartened to hear that your crystal ball is functioning so well. I am sure the OP will sleep better knowing of your prognostications.

Now, for extra credit and a kudo, who will be the first to explain why horses land first on one front leg just prior to landing on the other front leg?

[luvmytbs]

Originally Posted by LarkspurCO

No, but if you're really interested in seeing one you can call Cliff Carroll, owner of Cliff Carroll's Horseshoer Supply in Larkspur, Colorado, and ask him if he still has one. He is the person who worked the races (then as a farrier) and told me about the shoe wear. I suppose he could have been lying, but I have no reason to doubt him.

So you are throwing this out here based on hear-say?

The farriers here at Churchill use aluminum racing plates. For the most part, they get changed every four weeks, if they don't fall off before then.

I have a former track farrier coming to my barn on Wednesday, I will ask him.
BTW, he is totally against shoes these days. He has my BF trimmer do his personal horses, all 12 of them.

[PaulBunyon]

Originally Posted by luvmytbs

I have a former track farrier coming to my barn on Wednesday, I will ask him.
BTW, he is totally against shoes these days. He has my BF trimmer do his personal horses, all 12 of them.

Just out of curiosity, what does he do with his horses and why doesn't he do his own?

[luvmytbs]

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

I'd also like to know where it has been shown that horses have the ability to grow an infinite amount of hoof in response to wear, in a definate time frame.

Well. if you would like to pay my bills for a few months, I'd be willing to do the riding to see if it works. Don't know if MY body would hold up though.
But, again, that might be a question to ask one of the endurance riders mentioned before.

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

It would be an interesting experiment to shoe a horse with a steel shoe of an agreed upon thickness, work the horse on an abrasive surface for a given distance, and then see how much shoe was worn away. Before we did this though, we would have to determine what the wear co-efficient of hoof is , what the wear co-efficient of the steel in the shoe is, and then find the correct multiplier to equalize the two measurments.

Sounds like a great project for you Paul, since you would be the one to have everything you need at hand.

[luvmytbs]

Originally Posted by PaulBunyon

Just out of curiosity, what does he do with his horses and why doesn't he do his own?

His wife and he show their miniatures, and his normal sized horses get ridden when they have time.

He doesn't do his own horses for several reasons: He travels a lot these days, he teaches about equine dentistry in the adjoining states; he hates bending over anymore , and he watched my BF trimmer work and loved what she does. To top it off, being a man, he was really fascinated with her use of the angle grinder for trimming

[EventingJ]

Originally Posted by JB

A steel shoe isn't growing. A foot grows.


Properly trimmed horses can stand in wet winter muck for months and never get thrush. It's the trimming that allows contracted heels that allows the thrush to take hold.

I leave horse barefoot up until the first time he doesnt need trimmed at all (although it is rasped a bit). I've had him for approx a year now, and his feet were awful when i got him. Long and flared - looked as though they were never trimmed at all at 4 years old. He would naturally flare, he is fitted very full onthe outside with his shoes - i think the farrier said to fix the flare. They look 100% better now, I can't tell theres a flare there anymore, hes standing under his shoulder now, etc... It makes me very nervous to think that during the summer he is wearing his foot so much there is nothing to take off to correct his feet.

This farrier has been working on the horse since Oct or Nov of last year, two farriers actually (husband/wife team). They both think "ideal" is barefoot. They both take classes from Cornell, are both up to date with current technology/information, both work pretty closesly with the head farrier at Cornell. They both agree my horse should be shod in the summer.

There is one horse at the barn that can go the entire summer with no trim. His feet always look very short (to me)- and yes he DOES have lameness NQR problems. I'm not sold on this barefoot for all AT ALL sorry!

And I also do not agree its the trim that causes the thrush , I have had other farrier's opinions and vet opinions and they've discussed the "did the thrush make the heel weak, or did weak heels (due to trim/foot balance) cause the thrush to take place". I just know the solution to my problem was making the heel stable first, and allowing the foot to heal first. I hope when I pull shoes off this winter it doesnt reoccur (although the overall shape and balance of his foot is much better this year) or else I will start keeping shoes on him through the winter as well.

[LarkspurCO]

Originally Posted by luvmytbs

So you are throwing this out here based on hear-say?

I guess that depends on your definition of hearsay. I am merely reporting information given to me by a well respected professional.

Originally Posted by luvmytbs

Horses in the wild travel up to twenty miles a day with no excessive wear.

Is this hearsay, or do you follow these horses around and measure their feet?

[PaulBunyon]

Originally Posted by luvmytbs

Well. if you would like to pay my bills for a few months, I'd be willing to do the riding to see if it works. Don't know if MY body would hold up though.
But, again, that might be a question to ask one of the endurance riders mentioned before.

I don't think so. But yuou are the one who claims that horses have an infintesimal ability to grow hoof to replace that which is worn rapidly away. I'd just like to see your cites for this claim.

And, since I have already said that one of if not the most pre-eminent endurance riders of this era shoes her horses when she feels it appropriate, I find that she makes the case for me.

Sounds like a great project for you Paul, since you would be the one to have everything you need at hand.
[/indent]

Truely? In what way?

[EqTrainer]

Horses land on one front leg, versus the other, based on what lead they intend to canter off on.