Dangerous Riding Question

[nowoncourse]

So I've been either riding, coaching, or volunteering at Waredaca, Rubicon, and Seneca for the past three weekends (both days, all weekends) and I have a question about the "dangerous riding" issue.

At Waredaca, I watched two kids go way to fast at Prelim. One even turned the up bank-one stride-raised log into a bounce. I saw the TD driving the to the finish so I'm assuming she talked with the rider but nothing was done to his score. And he finished in the top three.

I saw the same two kids go Prelim again at Seneca this weekend and again, WAY too fast. So fast that a local trainer said to his group of students that were walking the course "if you ever go that fast I'm not letting you compete." Again, I watched the TD drive to the finish to talk with at least one of them. Again, nothing was done score wise and one of them finished in the top three again.

So, what, if anything have either of these kids learned? And as a spectator should I have said something? If so, who to?

I'm not posting here to get either of them in trouble or anything, but I walked away from the show this weekend concerned that they are bound to get hurt at some point and also frustrated that obviously just talking to them didn't do any good.

Is there anyway to track when someone gets a warning so that TDs at up coming shows can watch out for those riders? Just a thought. Would love to know what others think.

[riderboy]

I'm not sure what you can do to their scores. You know, the term " dangerous riding" is something I think that we all know when we see it but it's hard to actually define to have a consistent standard. I'm sure opinions vary as to what one rider may see as a bold,forward ride and another as dangerous. I've seen and read accounts of Ian Stark on Murphy Himself that some could construe as dangerous.

[LisaB]

See, I would have spoken with the td. Make it more of, 'I saw # and thought they were dangerous and here's why'. The td would explain and educate or take note. Then here's where the watch list would take effect. Td #1 gave a warning and then td #2 didn't know that td #1 gave the warning and warned again. If td #2 had known the kids did it again, proper actions would have taken place.
It's like asking daddy to take car. He says no. Go ask mommy, mommy doesn't know daddy said no and says yes.

[Janet]

That is where the proposed "watch list" comes in. TD#2 would then know whioch riders had been "spoken to" by TD#1.

But, unless you spoke to the TD, you do not KNOW that TD#1 spoke to them- it COULD have been coincidence that he was headed back to start/finish.

[thumbsontop]

Yes, as a spectator you should say something. Remember that most times jump judges aren't educated about the rules enough to know what should be reported and what shouldn't. It's then up to the TD to say something or not. Plus if the kid is killed the following weekend you won't feel guilty for not speaking up.

I'm not sure how it works with "speeding", but sometimes TDs simply give a verbal warning to riders, othertimes it's a written, and filed, warning. At the last HT I scored at the TD and I had a conversation about dangerous riders and he told me that they know which ones to watch just from being at so many. It's not an official watch list, but they are well aware of the riders that are causing problems. The rider I saw get a written warning had been verbally warned 3 states over by the same TD earlier in the year for a similar infraction.

[SR Rider]

At the last horse show I fenced judged, I had one rider totally out of control (training I think but maybe prelim) anyway, I radioed that the next fence judge be on the look out for
him for dangerous riding. He blew past the finish unable to stop his horse...the TD was
at the finish and drove after him. He was penalized 25 points for dangerous riding.

[asterix]

So what is the status of the watch list? Is this a pending rule change?

I guess, yes, you could have gone to the second TD and said that you had seen this rider bounce the one stride (yikes, I've ridden that complex, BOUNCE???) bank combo and generally have an out of control ride at Waredaca...
I know that the TDs must take with a grain of salt what anyone who they themselves do not know tells them (jump judges for example), but in your case you have ICP credentials so are not just a random spectator... The watch list would have been a much better way to do this, since you didn't know what, if anything, the first TD said to the rider, but...

I did hear the stadium judge at Rubicon assess 25 penalties for dangerous riding in stadium. I didn't see the round (was in barn, resting during a break from heat), but as warmup steward I had almost called the TD over because it was verging on dangerous. She asked xc warmup and judges to watch the rider -- not sure what happened.

[flutie1]

If it were as bad as you describe, I'm curious why 25 DR penalties weren't given.

[flyingchange]

yikes! s/he bounced that bank (up, one stride, brush log down)? at Waredaca? Holy $hit!!! That kinda pisses me off, in all honesty. That's exactly what needs to be addressed in this sport. Makes me mad/angry for the horse - there's no horsemanship in riding like that. Kid needs a smackdown.

[gjump]

I approached a TD this past weekend at an event letting him know that I saw a rider coming off of cross country not wearing an approved helmet. I knew it wasn't approved cause I'm a graduate A PC'er and I check the kids helmets all the time. He told me there was nothing he could do to enforce the rule and he wouldn't even talk to the rider. I figured the rider might not have know the rules. He stated that he knew the rider as well. He said that there was "no outlet for him to enforce the rule". So he let the rider go on....

I wrote a TD report to the USEF. I was really pissed....

I had students who witnessed his response and were mortified that he wouldn't do anything about it.... not even for "educational purposes".

I talked to the USEA and they aren't happy about the series of events that occured....

This is not a good act of managment for our sport considering the recent events.

[nowoncourse]

Ok so I was really vague in my first post because I know both TDs personally and really respect them and the host facilities. Plus, that was another reason why I wasn't sure if I should say anything cause I didn't want someone to be like "well she's friends with the TD so she got them in trouble" or something like that.

Yes, in my opinion, as an event rider/trainer/ and ICP cert. instructor they were going way to fast and riding dangerously. I was a bit confused as to why they weren't assessed the 25 penalties which is why I put this post out there. And yes, I'll speak up if I witness it again!

Anyway, Janet, I do know for a fact that the TD did talk to at least one of the kids at Waredaca (I was close enough to hear that conversation). And at Seneca, they announced over the loud speaker that "rider # wait at the finish for the TD" so I guess the TD could have just been saying hi but I rather doubt it.

So, what is the status of the "watch list"? Is this something that is going into effect through the USEA or just something that TDs are doing on their own?

[LisaB]

Nowoncourse,
since when do we not know org/sec/td/gj/judge at an event?
We have a lot of numbers in area 2 but we are still small world. It doesn't matter. What matters is that rider was dangerous and it should be pointed out. TD's are very frustrated when they can't be everywhere at once. Knowledgeable help is always appreciated.
Think of the td as the police. When we see a drunk driver on the road, don't we call it in? At least I do.

[flutie1]

"... He told me there was nothing he could do to enforce the rule and he wouldn't even talk to the rider."

That's crap. It was his obligation to at least talk to the rider.
What kind of officials are we making? (And I can say that - I am one)

flutie

[retreadeventer]

Yes Lisa, but isn't this a VERY volatile area in terms of subjective judgment, and privacy? For instance, making an announcement over the loudspeaker for a rider to come back to the finish ... overhearing conversations between the TD and a rider ... there needs to be a respect for the sport, for privacy, for proper protocol, and for standards to be written and addressed.

I disagree vehemently that dangerous riding cannot be defined. It most certainly can, and we are acting like we can't use the English language very well when we say we can't. Everyone of us can list an example of dangerous riding we've witnessed. I think we can categorize these examples into a few most common areas, like extreme speed; control of performance; and abuse/cruelty. (The last is defined in the rulebook anyhow.)
Control of performance would be the bounce bank deal or perhaps a stadium round that scares everyone with 16 rails down or something. Something pretty bad but not necessarily too fast.

I think whenever possible there should be some evidence, as well as witnesses, addressed.

I think the TD should have the option of bringing the point of discussion directly to the rider, or to the ground jury -- but eventually I believe that the Ground Jury needs to be involved. Any GJ will certainly give great weight to what the TD has either witnessed or found to be true, but the GJ should have the decision power. In other words, the scenario might be that the fence judge reported a YR going really fast. They radio it to control, and the TD hears the report. She goes to the portion of the course where the YR in question is currently progressing. While she does not witness the original area of concern, she or he may observe the rider later on course also going pretty fast. At the end of the course, she can approach the rider, give them a yellow card, which requires them to come to headquarters or whatever at say 3pm for a meeting with the TD, any witnesses, her trainer and or parents, and the GJ. They have a quick hearing with perhaps someone taking notes or a tape recorder keeping track of what is said. The GJ makes the decision to red card or yellow card or rescind. Red would mean suspend Yellow would mean watch list and rescind would mean everyone was wrong and the kid was just fine. If you got a yellow card after a course, and didn't show up for your hearing, and blew it off then you would be suspended and your horse and your trainer or whoever signed your entry blank so you would really want to not do that. And hearings need to be friendly and educational not confrontational.
A list of all of these types of hearings have to kept and circulated among all TD's and GJ members after every event so that all officials would be aware of who was or was not on the watch list and so secretaries would know who is on the suspension list. In addition the REASON for the violation should be carefully worded and made public OR maybe not, depending upon what was mutually agreed upon.
If there was vehement denial then a formal hearing USEF type would then be scheduled to be held along with the protest procedure which would kick in.
Anyhow, that's my ideal scenario -- protecting the rights of people on all sides and being respectful of the rules yet not being overly judgmental or subjective.
I guess the bottom line is are we protecting the horse by this procedure?

[LisaB]

Oh true retread! We don't want a witch hunt. And yet, the td's need to know these things.
How about this nowoncourse, since you're friends with both td's and this is really bugging you, shoot them an email. Both of them at the same time explaining what you saw. They are in the works for the watchlist and this is a perfect example of why it's needed. Also, the td's will be at other shows and I'm sure those kids are going to be at other shows. A sort of unofficial watchlist.
And yes, a talking to needs to be in private in some cases. In others, like I witnessed a kid hitting her horse at a water jump. TD stopped her and gave her a finger wagging. Kid was clearly distraught and probably learned her lesson there. But it was in front of a bunch of people and td caught kid red handed. It needed to happen at that instant.
TD's have it tough, I'll tell ya!

[riderboy]

Originally Posted by retreadeventer

Yes Lisa, but isn't this a VERY volatile area in terms of subjective judgment, and privacy? ... ,
I disagree vehemently that dangerous riding cannot be defined. It most certainly can, and we are acting like we can't use the English language very well when we say we can't. Everyone of us can list an example of dangerous riding we've witnessed. I think we can categorize these examples into a few most common areas, like extreme speed; control of performance; and abuse/cruelty. (The last is defined in the rulebook anyhow.)
Control of performance would be the bounce bank deal or perhaps a stadium round that scares everyone with 16 rails down or something. Something pretty bad but not necessarily too fast.


Anyhow, that's my ideal scenario -- protecting the rights of people on all sides and being respectful of the rules yet not being overly judgmental or subjective.
I guess the bottom line is are we protecting the horse by this procedure?

It seems to me that your first statement contradicts the rest of your statement. Yes, there are clear examples of dangerous riding but there are also a lot of gray areas. Do you want some volunteer who rode years ago reporting you for HER definition of dangerous riding. And if it's so clear how come none of the riders at Rolex were reported for dangerous riding.

[JER]

Originally Posted by gjump

I approached a TD this past weekend at an event letting him know that I saw a rider coming off of cross country not wearing an approved helmet. I knew it wasn't approved cause I'm a graduate A PC'er and I check the kids helmets all the time. He told me there was nothing he could do to enforce the rule and he wouldn't even talk to the rider. I figured the rider might not have know the rules. He stated that he knew the rider as well. He said that there was "no outlet for him to enforce the rule". So he let the rider go on....

I wrote a TD report to the USEF. I was really pissed....

I had students who witnessed his response and were mortified that he wouldn't do anything about it.... not even for "educational purposes".

I talked to the USEA and they aren't happy about the series of events that occured....

This is not a good act of managment for our sport considering the recent events.

Well done, gjump.

Some other TD-related issues came up at the safety summit -- TDs not filling out reports accurately/thoroughly, TDs not listening to or taking seriously rider concerns about XC courses.

These is a big issues, IMO. These are licensed officials. A license is supposed to mean something.

I know there are a lot of good, conscientious TDs out there. On the other hand, I've witnessed several incidents where a TD did not take the proper action because he/she knew the rider involved -- which is not a way to make our sport safer.

[riderboy]

Totally agree that well trained, educated TDs are a key. They were great at Spring Run Horse trials this past weekend.

[three_dayer]

well...ive been on a "watch list" because of my dressage, my horse didn't like dressage (we were really bad)and we looked like we were going to be dangerous x-c...a few of my freinds had to vouch for me to go x-c, and the judge told me that if I looked like i was out of control at all he would pull me...my horse was a x-c machine and there was no problem on course(very smooth) the judges always watched me close because of dressage, so not all dangerous riding occurs on the x-c...

[Bobthehorse]

Originally Posted by flyingchange

yikes! s/he bounced that bank (up, one stride, brush log down)? at Waredaca? Holy $hit!!! That kinda pisses me off, in all honesty. That's exactly what needs to be addressed in this sport. Makes me mad/angry for the horse - there's no horsemanship in riding like that. Kid needs a smackdown.

Yeah really, are these kids riding without coaches? Because if I did something like that, I would get such a smackdown. But then again, I think the lack of experienced coaching thats becoming more prevalent in this sport is frightening.