Recreational vs Professional Eventing

[denny]

It strikes me that there are two fairly distinct eventing sports in the US.
There is a small (500 riders?) group of advanced, intermediate and preliminary (sometimes) riders, usually very goal oriented, very proficient, quite well mounted, reasonably or very well funded. I call this group "professional", not in the USEF definition, but in its approach to riding and competing.
Then there`s everyone else, maybe 20-25,000 riders from "grasshopper", "minnow", through beg. novice, novice, training, and (sometimes) into preliminary.
USUALLY, the bad problems happen with or to the first group, because it`s so much harder there, at those levels.
But although it`s critically important to try to fix the sport at the two-three higher levels, I don`t think it`s correct to say that there`s a crisis going on in recreational US eventing, where every weekend, at recognized and unrecognized events all across the country, riders who are equally passionate about this sport are chasing their own dreams.

[DLee]

I don't think I have any more fear of competing at my lower levels now than I have ever had (since the early 80's at my first one.)

I definitely have more fear now of going to WATCH an upper level event. So much of the joy has gone out of it for me.

[denny]

DLee, that`s my point. The sport that most of us actually ride in is in pretty good shape, I think. When we say that eventing is in crisis, what I think that really means is that the very top is in crisis, but that doesn`t mean that suddenly all of eventing has turned into some battlefield.
I guess what I`m groping at is "keep it in perspective."
For 90-95 % of the riders, eventing is just fine. (Except for land loss.)

[BarbB]

The 95% for whom the sport is just fine are not televised, watched by huge crowds of non-horse people or scrutinized by the NY Times.
I doubt that anyone outside of the horse community would care about the distinction between the two. What is going on at the upper levels DOES affect the rider making her debut at grasshopper level this weekend.

This is the second time in a few years that there has been an uproar over horse and rider deaths. This time it again seems to be winding down into nothing, but not before, this time, drawing the attention of the outside media.

Eventually there will be an uproar that will not be allowed to just go away and then the riders at the lower levels will pay the cost for the riders at the upper levels who keep insisting that there is nothing wrong.

As I posted on another thread, I have loved this sport for 30+ years, but only recently have I felt that I needed to defend it, and it is becoming a pretty weak defense.

[RunForIt]

Originally Posted by BarbB

The 95% for whom the sport is just fine are not televised, watched by huge crowds of non-horse people or scrutinized by the NY Times.
I doubt that anyone outside of the horse community would care about the distinction between the two. What is going on at the upper levels DOES affect the rider making her debut at grasshopper level this weekend.

This is the second time in a few years that there has been an uproar over horse and rider deaths. This time it again seems to be winding down into nothing, but not before, this time, drawing the attention of the outside media.

Eventually there will be an uproar that will not be allowed to just go away and then the riders at the lower levels will pay the cost for the riders at the upper levels who keep insisting that there is nothing wrong.

As I posted on another thread, I have loved this sport for 30+ years, but only recently have I felt that I needed to defend it, and it is becoming a pretty weak defense.

You've written what many of us think.

I've reread Danny Warrington's COTH article many times this weekend - had JUST finished reading it the first time when the initial post about Tigger Too dying at Jersey Fresh appeared...

Defend eventing? How?

The lower levels are doing fine - accidents do seem to be the rare circumstance from Training down to minnow...but we all are part of the same sport. I don't care about the media, I care about defending upper level eventing to MYSELF!

Here's how Danny ended his article:
"We don’t have to change the sport. We have to change way the sport is being played by the players."

[IFG]

Denny,

I agree. The trick is to fix the upper levels without killing the lower levels with unnecessary regulation.

[denny]

Does anyone think it`s possible to "fix" the upper levels if the upper level riders themselves won`t get fully involved in the process?
Correct me if I`m wrong (I know you will!), but I don`t see that happening yet.
All we hear these days is how eventing is broken, but I don`t think most of us broke it.
Those who broke it are the ones who need to fix it, at their levels. For everyone else, I like that old saying,
"If it ain`t broke, don`t fix it."
Sure, the lower levels are not exempt from bad riding or poor xc design, but the heights and spreads are easier, the speeds are slower, and the distances shorter, so the stakes are nowhere near so high.
Maybe it`s time for an official two sport model, to make official that which already exists.
The USEF to struggle with their broken part, the USEA to administer the ok lower levels?
Or something like that.

[longrun]

That sounds like a great idea to me, Denny.
The one thing that does bother me a little, still, though, is how technical the xc courses have gotten at the lower levels. I couldn't believe that there was a mini-coffin on a bending line at Stoneleigh last summer. And King Oak's Spring Training level course had 3 combinations (well, one was a related distance but to my green guy it didn't make a difference) in the first 10 fences, and 5 combinations on course total. None with a straight approach, no good galloping to develop a rhythm. I do think there has been a trickle down of technicality that is shaking horses' confidence.
I have two girls - 7 and 8 - and don't know when they'll be able to run cross country at a recognized event. You used to be able to tell your kids to look up and kick and they could get the job done. Now it's balance, collect, gallop, collect, turn, jump... At BN!! Learning how to run and jump cross country happened at events in the old days, too. It wasn't too hard at the lower levels. You learned how to jump single fences and go out and have fun without too much thinking. Somehow we have lost that.

[pwynnnorman]

I think "recreational eventing" and "professional eventing" are an excellent terms to introduce into the discussions, both inside and beyond the sport.

I believe in the potential power of words, which is why I think Denny's terms point to a critical distinction that it would be much to the sport's advantage to use and use frequently in discussing the challenges being faced.

[Kanga]

Can someone out there come up with a list over the last 3 years of major accidents that have happened to horse/rider in the 2 different categories that we are talking about? It does seem to be that most major accidents are happening in the upper levels. Is that just because what most of us hear about are the upper level riders and events?

If that data turns out to be crystal clear that our 5% of riders are the ones having the "MAJOR" trouble then can't the other 95% of the riders MAKE THE CHANGES and have them inforced by the USEA? We do live in a DEMOCRACY, last I checked here in America.

I'm sure many of us here will be going to the safety summit. It would be nice to talk about this exact topic there.

[SmallHerd]

It's kind of like business - 80% of your revenue comes from 20% of your customers.

I think what is happening at the UL WILL have an impact on the LL because the outside person does not know the difference. While the UL events in the past few months do not have an immediate impact on my baby novice outing at the end of this month, it will eventually. Even people at work have come up to me based on what they read in the NYT.

I certainly don't even consider my horse and I having a rotational fall or a fatal heart attack on course. We just aren't going fast enough or working hard enough to increase those chances at this level. My concerns of the day are not to have any run-outs on my green bean and to remember the stadium course. But that doesn't stop my family or friends from thinking I am absolutely crazy.

Most of us can and do keep it in perspective, but a non-horse person or non-equestrian reporter will not.

So I then ask, how do we maintain our eventing 'family' if you will (keeping it all the same sport), while managing the PR so that not ALL eventing is seen in the same light? Or maybe we don't.

Or maybe the USEA can categorize the levels as professional and recreational?

I don't have the answers, but certainly understand and agree with Denny's post. Loss of land use and gas prices seem to be the biggest problem for the lower levels right now.

[SmallHerd]

Originally Posted by denny

Does anyone think it`s possible to "fix" the upper levels if the upper level riders themselves won`t get fully involved in the process?
Correct me if I`m wrong (I know you will!), but I don`t see that happening yet.
All we hear these days is how eventing is broken, but I don`t think most of us broke it.
Those who broke it are the ones who need to fix it, at their levels. For everyone else, I like that old saying,
"If it ain`t broke, don`t fix it."
Sure, the lower levels are not exempt from bad riding or poor xc design, but the heights and spreads are easier, the speeds are slower, and the distances shorter, so the stakes are nowhere near so high.
Maybe it`s time for an official two sport model, to make official that which already exists.
The USEF to struggle with their broken part, the USEA to administer the ok lower levels?
Or something like that.

And yes, I totally agree. Only the ULR's can fix the ULs. We can suggest, discuss, speculate and even pontificate all day long, but unless the ULRs get on the 'change' bandwagon, it ain't gonna happen. Right now the governing bodies are managing the PR, but to affect change, the ULRs have to speak up, get involved and MAKE it happen.

Honestly, I am a bit shocked that I haven't read or heard of any current BNRs commenting at all. Why are they silent?

[blackwly]

I'd go even farther. I think we've heard from the ULR's who are (technically or essentially) amateurs, and we've heard from a few of the really famous old school ULR's who have nothing else to prove (Denny, Bruce Davidson, loved his commentary.) We've also heard from a few riders who don't actually ride for our country (Leslie Law.) The common denominator - everyone who I hear speaking out is not in the thick of the upper level political scheme of US eventing. Yet many if not most of the tragedies we're seeing involve riders who are in the thick of it, or are hoping to be there within the next few years. If THESE people don't start telling us what they think and how they want to fix things, I don't really think we're getting anywhere.

I would love to read published interviews on this subject by everyone on this summer's short list. And then I'd like to see if those riders can back up what they have to say with their own personal riding choices.

[enjoytheride]

So do people eventing at the weanie levels have no right to talk about eventing tragedies at the upper levels? Is your voice not worthwhile unless you've ridden at the level the accidents are happening?

A friend and I were discussing the controversial subject of abortions. I was told that I have no right saying anything about the subject at all because I never had children and would never "understand" and my point was not valid. However, if I had children I would automtically be against it because that is what having children does.

Are the accidents like this? Can you not critique if you have not been there? Then once you're there it's just "part of the sport" Is the opinion of anyone who will always ride below a particular level not valid?

In a thread I started it seems like there is a "it can't happen to me" theme running. So it can't be talked about by lower level weanies, and nobody at the upper levels is concerned because they're different and it can't happen to them. So there we are in exactly the same spot.

If there are only a few people who think that the issue effects them then nothing is done about the issue, and it seems like it might not be significant enough to change people's minds about it.

[eventer_mi]

Denny, I am so glad to see you, a former "professional level" rider/trainer (by your current definition of the sport), current BNT, and now advocate for the Recreational Tadpoles and Others amongst us, having the honesty and the guts to make this post. It has been something that I have been worrying over, like a dog with a bone, over the past few months, but not daring to say anything to anybody for fear of an uproar. Sure, the courses are becoming more technical at the lower levels - that trickle-down effect - but we are not in danger of our lives or our horse's lives due to the decreased speeds, heights, etc of our courses. When I watched the telecast of Rolex, it struck me again and again how different that sport is than the one that I just completed three weeks ago at The Horse Park in NC - it is, in comparison, not unlike my husband (Cat 2 Racer) racing the Tour De Moore (50 miles) compared to the racers in the Tour de France (Elite level racers).

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say, here, except that I agree with you that the only way to fix that small upper level percentage of the sport is to start with the people themselves who compete at that level. The problem with someone like me commenting on changes to the sport is that someone like me can't be taken too seriously, because my perception of what encompasses a "dangerous" jump really depends on the horse that I happen to be mounted on - right now, a strange looking crossrail seems frightening to me, mounted on my baby. There is a lack of proper perspective there.

The question I have is that if we make a two-sport model, where is that gap going to be and how will/can that gap be bridged? Darren was injured at Prelim, the level that most of us consider to be the "bridge" between the upper levels and the lower levels. And, if we do recognize that there is a gap and that there really are two different sports, will that affect the people who make that crossover and how will it affect them - dramatic changes in entry fees to fund the differently designed jumps, "pro" team status (pro teams in the Tour de France, or invitational only), qualification points or levels? The problem with stricter qualifications is that you make the assumption that we are allowing lesser-qualified riders/horses to compete, which is making the assumption that they weren't qualified for that level, which may or not be the case. At what point do we need to tell people to assume the responsibility for the risk of the sport, and at what point do WE, as competitors and course designers and trainers and supporters and sponsors need to assume that responsibility?

It makes me sick to hear of another loss, but it doesn't make me love the sport and the heart of the people and horses who compete in the sport any less, regardless of whether you're the Queen of Tadpoles or the Queen and King of Eventing (the O'Connors). I don't have the answers, nor will I, but I applaud you, Denny, for voicing what I, and probably a lot of other people on this board, have been thinking all along.

[eventer_mi]

Originally Posted by SmallHerd

While the UL events in the past few months do not have an immediate impact on my baby novice outing at the end of this month, it will eventually. Even people at work have come up to me based on what they read in the NYT.

They certainly still talk about it when they are reminded that it's the sport that Christopher Reeve was injured doing.

However, the public's attention span is a very short one. What gets them in an uproar now will most likely be forgotten in a few short months, as another tragedy hits the headlines and distracts our current short attention span. 9-11 is pretty much forgotten as a distant memory - just ask my 9th graders in class, who were half their age now when it happened. I'm not saying that we shoudn't be trying to "fix" our sport - I'm saying not to worry unduly about the public's opinion of our sport, as it will most likely pass with time. Changing the public view and perception of eventing isn't going to give us more, inexpensive land to event on, or give us more dollars to make it more affordable for all of us, or change the fact that horse sports, the ones requirning English saddles in general, are seen as an Elite sport where only the rich can participate. Public view of horses and horse sports needs to be changed at the grass levels, and attempting to change the public viewpoint of eventing will do very little towards that goal.

Please don't misunderstand - there is something seriously wrong with the upper levels, and most heavily publicized and televised, of our sport. I'd be interested to hear what the Brits and the Irish and the Aussies and the Kiwis and the Germans and everybody else across the pond think of their sport, as horses are more of a part of their culture, and if it's changed the public view of eventing over there as well.

[poltroon]

If I remember correctly, the level with the greatest number of fatalities is actually Preliminary/UK Novice, which is sort of where the two halves meet.

[snoopy]

Originally Posted by poltroon

If I remember correctly, the level with the greatest number of fatalities is actually Preliminary/UK Novice, which is sort of where the two halves meet.

and where I believe that those driven individuals push their horses to that level in order to feel "validated" and seperated from the "recreational" eventer. There seems to be some sort of cache' to say that "I ride at the prelim level".

[RunForIt]

Here's "my" reality of the LLRs impact on the ULRs - we are asking them to come out publicly, take a stand, explain how they make decisions regarding the welfare of their horses vs. their personal ambitions, and be prepared to answer questions. Am I somewhere in the vicinity of what we'd like to see them do?

Well, we LLRs need to be as gutsy as we expect the big time folks to be...we finance a great deal of their sport, even if we don't buy the horses and pay the entry fees. How many of us go to clinics, take lessons, etc., etc., etc., from ULRs. Got guts, want change for horses at the ULs? Go to them, ask their opinions, DON'T report it here, - but damnit - act.

Same for USEA. I'm going to ask them to let me know the names of the committees, the mission of each committee, the names of the committee members, and I am going to write each committee a letter asking for their plans, their schedule for reporting ideas/results/decisions to the general membership.

I can't defend UL eventing to myself today - its all one sport.

[wanderlust]

Originally Posted by denny

Does anyone think it`s possible to "fix" the upper levels if the upper level riders themselves won`t get fully involved in the process?

There is a very true saying that "perception is reality". It seems that those who ride at the "elite" level of eventing have a very different perception of current issues than those who do not. Honestly, those who do not probably have a clearer, less clouded picture of what is truly going on, as they have the benefit of distance with which to observe the goings-on.

So, the question becomes: How do you shift the perception of those who are still of the "freak accident" or "inexperienced at this level" mindset to the mindset that a dead horse or two and critically injured riders at every major CIC is *not* a string of freak accidents, is *not* limited to only inexperienced riders or horses, and just in general, is *not* acceptable? Not to mention, that it could happen to them next and they are NOT invincible?