Hunter breeding article series in COTH

[Janet]

Originally Posted by SilverBalls

I think this week's COTH issue will have the opinion of Ray Francis

Nothing like more fuel for a raging fire....

That letter was in LAST WEEK's issue.

[S A McKee]

[quote=lauriep;4500426]Perhaps the horses really weren't of equal QUALITY in the judge's eye. If I were ever to judge, I would look at the overall quality of the animal. If there were another in the class that was of equal quality/movement, I would place the unscarred horse over the blemished one. BUT, if the blemished horse were superior to every other horse, then it would win. Also, some alledged "blemishes" can also be herditary. There is no way for the judge to know what happened, so he must assume it is heritable. I have talked to a number of judges about this, and some agree and some will absolutely not place a blemish well, if at all. Their option. But it helps explain why a horse may not place consistently, or why one who has done well suddenly doesn't.

/QUOTE]

Assume that a scar is a result of a hereditary condition??
That's a little far fetched, even for the dyed in the wool HB supporters.
You seem to be saying that if a judge sees a scar on a horses nose ( maybe a water bucket accident ) that he will assume it's hereditary.
Come on, we didn't all drink the kool aid.

[SilverBalls]

Originally Posted by Janet

That letter was in LAST WEEK's issue.

oh that makes it ok... your point...

This whole nonchanlant and cavalier attitude that has been adopted by some committee members and officials who are part of the the organizations that "oversee" ( and I use the term loosely ) HB is truly sad.

I think it's time to speak with our wallets. I know I will be very selective where I will be spending my money. If Devon wasn't such a tradition in my life, I would probably skip it.
Times being what they are, I want my money's worth... and with the lack of accountability in HB... from the officials right down to show management...well it's downright unattractive!

I fell really bad for Kim M, who was trying to voice an opinion, who got chastized by a committe chairman, judge, and a steward. She has participated in HB for many years and I believe she is very in touch with what's going on. To insinuate otherwise is inappropriate.

Way to go... ooops that must be the mentoring program.

[Janet]

Originally Posted by SilverBalls

oh that makes it ok... your point...

Of course it doesn't make it OK.

But it helps restore my (misplaced?) sense of my own sanity.

I was reading the text you posted and thinking "I've seen that before. But how could I have seen it before if it hasn't come out yet. Am I psychic? Am I crazy? Is the next step hearing voices?"

Now I know I WASN'Tcrazy to think I had seen it before.

That is all.

I remembered it because I thought it was a really weird letter.

[SilverBalls]

Originally Posted by Janet

Of course it doesn't make it OK.

But it helps restore my (misplaced?) sense of my own sanity.

I remembered it because I thought it was a really weird letter.

My bad... I totally understand... I am definitely not the "pilar of sanity" .. and wierd is an understatement.

[VirginiaBred]

Originally Posted by SilverBalls

.. and wierd is an understatement.

Especially when it's spelled weird!!!

[chunky munky]

So after all your interesting perspective regarding your judges/committe members that you are disapointed with can we expect to see you at the convention? Or are you just a wimp who will not make a statement in front of all the people that you will disagree with on a public bulletin board/? Show up , or shut up :-)

[ynl063w]

I’m not seeing anything hypocritical or elitist in the letter to the editor copied in a previous post. It seems honest and logical to me. Mr. Francis made two basic points:

A). Judges can only evaluate what is presented to them.
This point seems to confuse a lot of people in the horse world, not just in hunter breeding. I see posts here complaining about the lack of concrete standards when it comes to judging young horses on the line, but at the same time many of you want the judges to speculate on the future success of your horses once they enter the performance ring. Judges aren’t handed a crystal ball as they enter the ring; asking them to do this is like asking someone to walk into a kindergarten class and line up the kids based on which is most likely to win the Nobel prize in medicine as an adult. There is simply not enough information available to make that call at that time. Raise your hand if you’ve ever known a beautifully put together mature horse who could have cleaned up on the line as a young horse but has never, nor will it ever, be successful as a 3’, 3’6”, or 4’ hunter. Raise your hand again if you’ve ever seen a horse that could never have won on the line but has a very respectable career in one or more division listed above. Therefore, in order to be fair, judges can only judge what they can see in front of them at the time the class is held.

B). Professional handlers tend to get first crack at the best young horses, therefore professionally handled horses tend to win more often than non-professionally handled horses.
This is such a logical concept that I’m amazed anyone can argue it. People who own promising young prospects they want to show on the line will hire the best professional they can get unless they are interested in doing it themselves. Professional handlers have a strong interest in showing the horses they think are most likely to win, since winning is what allows them to continue being professional handlers, which in turn allows them to pay their bills. And, as laurip stated previously, handling young horses does in fact require a skill set that the average horsey person simply does not possess. If anyone could do it well, there would be no demand for professional handlers and they would not exist. This is no different, really, than any other professional career out there.

This is not to say that hunter breeding doesn’t have its problems – it certainly does, but politics run rampant in plenty of other disciplines. Topics starting with “BUT IT’S NOT FAIR BECAUSE…” are epidemic in the H/J forum as well. When you let your emotions get in the way of forming practical, logical and realistic complaints, it’s impossible to develop practical, logical, and realistic solutions.

[lauriep]

[quote=S A McKee;4508330]

Originally Posted by lauriep

Perhaps the horses really weren't of equal QUALITY in the judge's eye. If I were ever to judge, I would look at the overall quality of the animal. If there were another in the class that was of equal quality/movement, I would place the unscarred horse over the blemished one. BUT, if the blemished horse were superior to every other horse, then it would win. Also, some alledged "blemishes" can also be herditary. There is no way for the judge to know what happened, so he must assume it is heritable. I have talked to a number of judges about this, and some agree and some will absolutely not place a blemish well, if at all. Their option. But it helps explain why a horse may not place consistently, or why one who has done well suddenly doesn't.

/QUOTE]

Assume that a scar is a result of a hereditary condition??
That's a little far fetched, even for the dyed in the wool HB supporters.
You seem to be saying that if a judge sees a scar on a horses nose ( maybe a water bucket accident ) that he will assume it's hereditary.
Come on, we didn't all drink the kool aid.

Read more carefully. I said "blemishes", not scars. Blemish is not necessarily the same as a scar. It can refer to any manner of lumps and bumps, not just scars.

Don't know why the 'tude, S A McKee. I'm not the enemy. And I don't drink kool aid.

[SilverBalls]

I just finished reading the 2 "letters to the editor" in this weeks COTH. Both points of view commend Kim M for speaking out and for being so honest, and they also comment on the need for changes in HB immediately. AWESOME!

I was asked "what do you want"? Quite simply I want to know the organizations that I pay constant fees to annually and throughout the entire year at every competition have my best interest at heart.
I also want HB competitions to be on a level playing field, honest, and hold officials accountable.
Provide some set guidelines taking away some of the subjective opinion and speculation. Announce the scores.
We all know a refusal or knockdown will reduce a score in performance competitions... the judges don't evaulaue why the horse stopped or was the knockdown a result of the horse or rider... not like HB where blemishes & scars, club feet, splints ( some removed and noticable) are overlooked or determined to be hereditary.
Make judges comments/scores readily available to exhibitors.

I truly despise it when it seems there are a different set of rules for people with "time put in".

I will seize EVERY opportunity to make my point and I believe persistence over-rides resistance!

[Ruby G. Weber]

Right on!!! - as we said in the 60's - ynl1063w. Finally a practical, logical and realistic poster. Congratulations.

[S A McKee]

[quote=lauriep;4508672]

Originally Posted by S A McKee

Read more carefully. I said "blemishes", not scars. Blemish is not necessarily the same as a scar. It can refer to any manner of lumps and bumps, not just scars.

Don't know why the 'tude, S A McKee. I'm not the enemy. And I don't drink kool aid.

Glad you clarified that because that was't clear in your post.

I'm sure you understand the reference to Kool aid. You expect everyone to drink it. Meaning believe what the 'old boys' club tell us.

About the 'enemy' thing. I think you've overreacted. Many old schoolers on this board tend to get upset when challenged. We get told that 'it's always done that way' and sometimes whats being advocated is illegal, unethical, not in the best interests of showing, of horses or just plain foolish. Because HB has had a bad rap for a long time means it's probably time to make some big changes. Times have changed, what was acceptable years ago is passe'. People don't accept nonsense as readily as they used to.

Based on trainer affiliation I'm certainly not on your side of the fence, but 'enemy'. Hardly.

[SilverBalls]

Originally Posted by S A McKee

Many old schoolers on this board tend to get upset when challenged. We get told that 'it's always done that way' and sometimes whats being advocated is illegal, unethical, not in the best interests of showing, of horses or just plain foolish.
Because HB has had a bad rap for a long time means it's probably time to make some big changes. Times have changed, what was acceptable years ago is passe'. People don't accept nonsense as readily as they used to.

Spot on!

[SilverBalls]

Here are this week's letters to the editor....

Time For A Change

I’m responding to Ms. Kimberly Maloomian’s searing and forthright Forum “Why Is The Hunter Breeding Division Losing
Ground?” (Oct. 16, p. 44).
I’ve been involved in hunter breeding for 25 years, first as a groom and braider and now having handled youngsters in the
show ring for the past 20 years. Her eloquenttake on the state of affairs in the hunter breeding needs to be carefully noted.
While the actual numbers of horses bred may be down, the reflection of entries in the show ring is abominable. Most divisions are cancelled with no entries, the Thoroughbred division is practically nonexistent, and owners and breeders are
keeping their horses in the barn until they are ready for under saddle.
After reading what Ms. Maloomian pointed out, it’s no wonder.
Owners and breeders aren’t silly; they see what’s going on in the show ring and opt out. This situation is making it very hard for handlers and trainers to sell their product, convince owners to show their youngsters, and promote breeding. The hunter breeding industry is shooting itself in the foot.
But the clearest point of why the hunter breeding is losing ground seems to lie with the judges. Shame on the brazen exhibitor who taunts the system with conversations in the ring with the judges. But more shame on the judges who cater to this behavior.
In other venues, such as the American Paint Horse Association, this is not tolerated. In the APHA Rule Book
(2009) on page 199 under Judges #3—Fraternization/Perception is specified. And in the American
Quarter Horse Association Rule Book (Judge’s Code of Ethics) conversing with the judges expels the exhibitor, and the
judge is fined.
Judges seem to spend more time contemplating the next purchase or sale of a particular horse or who is writing their
paycheck and how not to offend them, rather than accept that they were hired to offer their expert opinion in a competitive environment.
Unfortunately, there seems to be noconsequences for this behavior. The USEF Rule Book doesn’t seem to have any particular address to this issue of judges’ ethics and conduct in the ring.
Although Ms. Maloomian researched the statistics of hunter breeding champions having performance careers, I debate
that. Since not everyone can win the class, there are many young horses that have gone on to have productive careers. From yearling to the performance ring takes a few years to prove, but there are a lot of success stories out there!
Thank you Ms. Maloomian for expressing your concern. It’s long overdue for a change.

Bridget Hanley
Elverson, Pa.

------------------------------------------------------------


A Big High Five

Kimberly Maloomian’s Forum “Why Is TheHunter Breeding Division Losing Ground?” Oct. 16, p. 44) deserves a big high
five!
She provides insightful and well-substantiated comments regarding some of the reasons why hunter breeding, as well as other hunter divisions, are becoming increasingly unattractive to anyone without the right connections. This situation is found more so at the big shows and often in divisions like the above where the reputation of the sport is at stake.
Kimberly has said itlike it is, and I commend her for it. Perhaps if others also aware of similar circumstances elsewhere were willing to tell the facts, the fine organization that’s working so hard to make things better would receive copious benefits as well as those who deserve a ribbon but get passed over.

Marilla van Beuren
Wellington, Fla.

[CBoylen]

Junior can stand them up, ask me to hold them so he can step back and look and the INSTANT I touch the reins, they move. Everytime.

Thank the lord, I thought this only happened to me. If you want some good entertainment watch when I get stuck holding the also-ran in the model. It's a good thing I never have to hold anything that has a chance at more than a pastel .
I have very little to add to this discussion, other than that I think any issues are less specific to HB and more specific to the fact that it's a subjective decision that is based on not readily or easily explainable factors. The complaints happen at every show after every model in every conf division too, not just the HB shows. There's always the horse that "should" win, the horse that "always" wins, and some that "could" win, but everyone thinks they have the first one, complain about the second one, and if one of the third ones does win somewhere, then its associates think it has moved into the first category. No matter how educated people are, or how many times they've led a horse in the ring, or how many blue ribbons that same horse is going to win over fences. For some reason it's just much easier for people to accept that their horse didn't GO well enough to win than it is for them to accept that it didn't win when it just had to stand there. Nothing brings out the worst in people like the model. So, I can certainly see how there are issues with a division composed solely of models, but I can't say I see workable solutions to them.

[lauriep]

SA McKee:
"Based on trainer affiliation I'm certainly not on your side of the fence, but 'enemy'. Hardly."

"I'm sure you understand the reference to Kool aid. You expect everyone to drink it. Meaning believe what the 'old boys' club tell us."

Meaning what, exactly?

Just for clarification's sake, I, nor my partner, are members of ANY "old boys' club." We win our share because 1) we bring nice (tho not perfect) horses to the shows, 2) they are carefully conditioned and beautifully turned out (I do this MYSELF), 3) we have, IMO, the best handler out there, and 4) we have wonderful customers who allow Junior to guide their careers.

[Samotis]

Like C Boylen said,

There is always someone thinking this or that horse should have won, or should have been second.

I get the subjective part of the hunter breeding class. But when a horse blatantly has a club foot, or paddles out at the trot, or has a lot of knee action, that should put them out of the top ribbons.

I have seen these types of horses win before and it leaves you scratching your head!

If me, an amateur breeder that stands on the rail can see it, then why the heck can't the judge see it!!!!

I am all for the best horse to win, but when a paddler with a club foot beats a unknown better quality horse, I am not going to be happy!!

These are all just examples, but the few shows I have seen have confused me a little.

[avadog]

Originally Posted by lauriep

SA McKee:
"Based on trainer affiliation I'm certainly not on your side of the fence, but 'enemy'. Hardly."

"I'm sure you understand the reference to Kool aid. You expect everyone to drink it. Meaning believe what the 'old boys' club tell us."

Meaning what, exactly?

Just for clarification's sake, I, nor my partner, are members of ANY "old boys' club." We win our share because 1) we bring nice (tho not perfect) horses to the shows, 2) they are carefully conditioned and beautifully turned out (I do this MYSELF), 3) we have, IMO, the best handler out there, and 4) we have wonderful customers who allow Junior to guide their careers.

Well said Laurie, I also don't understand SA McKee's hostility. I think that of course professionals win more, they are usually offered the nicest babies to show and they present them better then amatuers. Is it a perfect system, probably not but either are hunters or anything else subjective. Professionals are not the enemy, they work hard and do what most people as amatuers can't.

[VirginiaBred]

Playing devils advocate here...............

I think many folks perceive *some* professionals as the "problem". (No point using the word enemy).

Professionals have the advantage, in many ways. That can be good or bad.

[SilverBalls]

Originally Posted by avadog

Professionals are not the enemy, they work hard and do what most people as amatuers can't.

This is not about professionals or amateurs...or amateurs vs professionals. It would be nice to know or "perceive" that if you had a nice horse to show in HB, and the handler did a good job, there would be a level playing field and a shot at a top ribbon. There are plenty of professionals out there to choose from.


I am not interested in handling my own horses... my A.D.D. limits me and I tend to make horses rammy.