How many of you know about "hyperflexion"?

[ontarget]

Originally Posted by mvp

I knew about it before the latest Blue Tongue skirmish.

While I admire and use dressage even for the most hunteresque of the horses I ride, I'm really, really glad that this discipline has no real use for Roilkur. Or have I missed something?

Double bridles don't seem to be a h/j thing, but I will say that I see many horses with chins to their chests in the h/j arenas in what one might think looks a lot like hyperflexion, warming up at shows and at some of the top h/j barns in the US.

In any event, I think it is an issue of horses, no matter the discipline. Yes, I agree that there are plenty of worse abuses out there, but this one is up for debate, and the FEI has yet to take a stance on the issue after calling for further research and review.

If there are negative effects to hyperflexion that compromise the horse's welfare, then I think we should know about them. If there are no negative effects, then we should know about that, too. Right now there has not been enough research done on the topic.

Please note that the poll did not say "Yes, I think hyperflexion is abuse," it is an issue of approval. Do you or do you not approve of this technique.

[Lkramer]

Originally Posted by War Admiral

Quite.



Clearly.

I was describing Rollkur as a training method.. not polling...

[NancyM]

I think what has been missed is it's apparent similarity to racehorse training, where horses will often gallop in an "overbent" frame, seems very similar to "hyperflexion" or "rollkur" to me. And the goals seem similar too, a method of training to get the horse to put more effort into his work to get him fitter and stronger, faster, without taking as many steps and incurring the associated wear and tear. Neither discipline (racing or dressage-or hunter jumper if some are using it there) use the demands in competition, it is done in training only for a physical fitness benefit. The resulting strength of the training is used in competition without asking for the overbent frame.

Me? No, my hunter/jumper types in training don't go this way in training, and I don't compete in dressage. I've had some racehorses who have gone like this, in training, for the reasons stated. No blue tongues from the pressure of the bit (I presume that is what cut off the circulation to the tongue in this dressage horse?), but blue tongues do happen from tongue ties on racehorses, and they get over it when the tongue tie is removed. I prefer leather tongue ties that do not cut off the circulation like the cloth ones do, if I need a tongue tie. I like the lighter, softer way of travelling for a horse, and am not big on "attaining on the bit" to the fullest extent possible with my non-race horses in training. Do I think it is "cruelty" or "abuse" to train a riding horse in this manner? Not really, but it isn't my cup of tea. It makes it too difficult to undo for competition, the overbent frame is such a resistance IMO. I don't need my horses that fit and strong to do what I ask of them. In OTTBs, the main goal in training is to undo this frame. If the goal is to make the horse stronger so that he can perform better in competition, that would be a trainer's decision.

[findeight]

Ummm...if I see outright abuse, I am going to report it.

But you are asking, I gather, for support in banning this training technique? Because some overdo it? And it is certainly tolerated, or so it seems, and even advocated by some very top names and it also seems your Dressage rule making bodies don't view it as a priority.

If you ban it at the shows, as we H/J's have poling for years (and it's POLING, not going to your polling place to vote), people will still use and abuse it at home.

Now, I don't use it, may have some limited use in the hands of a qualified rider but think some go waaaay overboard with it but, ya' know, I don't do Dressage and have no close friends in it. Yeah, the video is baaad but that does not mean there is no value in some limited use of the technique...I just don't know that much about those big a** WBs going in a way I have no clue how to produce but the way the judges want to see them go. Admit when I do watch a competition, I am clueless about why that score was what it was. NO IDEA what it was they saw I did not or vice versa-and that may be your biggest issue. Not an underlying training technique to produce an artificial frame when overused...that gets rewarded.

Persuade some of the really big names to stand openly against it and that will do more then endless discussion on the web. Look at the judging standards that encourage use of things like this.

I can't help you. No reason at all to even contemplate using it as a training tool. Ball is in your court on this one.

[magnolia73]

Hyperflexion- and its HJ cousin "chin on the chest in draw reins" are tools. They are not tools I use. But they are tools that some of the best riders in the world choose to use. I think they have a reason for using those tools and those tools... in their hands create winning performances and training gains, otherwise they would not use them.

The disaster comes when the less competent decide to use these tools. I know a horse who is frequently... OK, always ridden chin to chest in draw reins. The occasion he is relieved of his draw reins, he is nicely forward...and is neck is inverted with the opposite muscling that he should have. This is a rider who does not understand the impact and implications of horses not having free use of their neck- and indeed flipped a horse jumping in such a set up. Problem? This method was obviously watched and learned, but not FULLY understood, and a tool for Anky and Top Jumper Rider becomes a disaster for the clueless.

Certainly Anky's horses do not develop poor muscling and inversion, and a top GP horse ridden in draw reins has use of his neck.

The problem is- LACK OF EDUCATION. People see big bits, draw reins, side reins, rigs, big spurs, corrective exercises, poling - and try/overuse without understanding. You can ride poorly in a fat snaffle, but the horse has pretty good capacity to ignore your poor riding. Once you add leverage and more efficient prodding- they can't escape your bad riding. And if the riding is actually *good* with these tools they are no issue. Of course Beezie Madden can ride in a chain link Mikamar with jumbo spurs- she has utter control of her hand and leg and KNOWS where the horse needs to be and can control the big aids. It's the person who uses these tools with a lack of control and a lack of knowledge of where a horses body is that cause the disasters.

[findeight]

Perhaps this is just another reason to move towards certification of trainers? So they can properly TEACH the basics and explain why nothing is either inherently evil or good but as good as the rider?

But that would require people to select a qualified trainer and LISTEN to them and monkey see, monkey do is soooo much easier.

[Foxtrot's]

I was led to believe that it started in the jumpers.

[CiegoStar]

I have used overflexing as a training tool, but only when my horse is seriously misbehaving. It is a way to get him to stop spooking at a dumb tractor, for example. At the time I was using it, I didn't know about Rollkur. But now I can agree that as an everyday training tool it is wrong. I used it only in rare occasions and ONLY when my horse was seriously misbehaving – ie, as a punishment. So even before I knew the term "Rollkur" I could recognize that severe overflexing is unpleasant for the horse, and is used as a way for a rider to manhandle the horse into a certain behavior.

I think what is upsetting about Rollkur is not that it's a training tool that can be used cruelly by the wrong people. Almost every training aid we put on our horses every day can be misused – from bits to martingales to spurs. It’s that high-level riders, successful international riders, are being rewarded for doing it. That's gross.

FWIW, I switched from h/j to eventing a few years ago. Since then I have seen an eventer use draw reins exactly once. You want to talk about a tool that promotes overflexion – draw reins are it, and there are some h/j horses that practically live in them. Are they being abused? I don’t know.

[RugBug]

Originally Posted by CiegoStar

I have used overflexing as a training tool, but only when my horse is seriously misbehaving. It is a way to get him to stop spooking at a dumb tractor, for example.

I don't use rollkur, but there are occassions when my horse is BTV, Specifically like mentioned above, when he's being unruly or excessively spooky. I ride him VERY forward into a decent amount of contact, which in the grand scheme of things is VERY light...I have never been good with dressage style contact. His chin is NEVER too his chest and the second he decides to reach for contact, he is allowed to stretch out to it. The end result is a horse that is moving from behind into a very, very soft contact. He goes in a HMMM, BTW.

I have never used draw reins in my life, don't own a pair and as a matter of fact, I've never seen my trainer use them.

Personally, I don't consider how I ride my horse to be rollkur. Not every BTV horse is a victim of RK. IMO, RK is sustained hyperflexion where the horse's chin is close to or touching the chest. I do find rollkur shocking and far from what dressage/riding should be.

[virtus02]

Everyone, please go watch the DVD "If Horses Could Speak" It's even better than the book it is designed after. It demonstrates exactly what occurs anatomically to horses when rollkur is used. Yes some professionals do it, yes some professionals use draws reigns. They are over exaggerated short cuts. These "tools" get the job done and seem impressive to an uneducated eye. However, over time, they cause wear and tear on the horse and lead to extensive physical problems. The horses that may look flashy because of these practices in the show ring today, will definitely, definitely, not be around doing their jobs in five or ten years.

[omare]

I do think what is going on when a racehorse gallops is different as the horse is not being driven into the bit with leg/spur --rather--the rider maybe just trying not to get run off with and the rider does not have any leg on the horse. I think it is more an unintended consequence of the thoroughbreds forwardness combined with a rider trying to use strength or finesee (e.g., dont breath or move, or wiggle your fingers), or whatever, to get around the track on a tough horse without getting run off with. In that instance the rider is trying to harness energy that the horse has created on its own in order to control the pace.

I have seen the hyperflexion (overbent with lots of rider's leg) used by jumper riders.