Boarder sneaking hay

[SpottedTApps]

I have been both a BO and a boarder over the years. I have boarded in self care places where people were stealing my hay. ARGGGG!!! I have boarded in full service places where my horses were well taken care of.

As a barn owner, I refuse to allow self care. I am fortunate that my boarders trust my feeding practices and we have open discussions about the horses' feed. Most of the horses are on slow feeders and have free choice hay for about 18-20 hours a day before they run out. 4-6 hours a day without hay isn't going to kill them, and the horses are in good flesh with a little extra padding. To compensate for weight issues in different horses, each horse gets different feed. If someone is looking a little porky, they get less, a little ribby they get more.

One boarder's horse could not be with the others or on the slow feeder. He destroys his hooves by constantly pawing on the metal grating to the feeder. He lives on his own and gets about 12-15 lbs of hay a day as well as the feed I provide. His owner provides beet pulp which I feed with his grain.

I would not be upset by any boarder throwing their horse extra hay, although I may question why, just so I can adjust the horse's feed properly. Luckily though, all boarders are very happy with my animal husbandry practices and it's a non issue.

[Tif_Ann]

Originally Posted by AKB

Actually, 1200 bales per year to feed 5 boarders and 5 of the owner's horses is 120 bales per year per horse. That is 10 bales per month per horse, and 2 1/3 bales per week per horse. My bales are small; about 30lbs each. Assuming the BO's bales are larger; 40-50lbs each, and that each horse is given the same amount of hay, each horse is getting 13-15lbs of hay per day. My 16.3h horse weighs 1500lbs. His 1%-2% of body weight hay requirement is 15-30lbs of hay per day; substantially below what the OP is feeding.

I'm sure others have mentioned - "bale" is relative. Our "small" bales are anywhere from 50-80 pounds, averaging 65 pounds, and average 12-14 flakes per bale, or about 5 pounds per flake. We also don't know the mix of the bale - is it straight grass, or an alfalfa mix? My current barn feeds a very strong alfalfa mix, at least 50%, up to 75% ... and my horses maintain their weight on about half the amount of hay that they require if it's straight grass. Personally I prefer straight grass or a very low alf mix ... but I'm boarding and love my facility, so it's a tradeout. I try to monitor my stalled horse's weight and go by that, not by the number of flakes he's getting. My pasture horse has round bales in the winter so I don't worry at all about him LOL

When I do the math for being "self care" and providing my own hay or if I had my own place, I've always budgeted 1 bale per day for my two horses. My horses are 1000 pounds and 1300 pounds respectively. When I was self care, or if I had my own place, in the summer they were out all but about 2 hours per day ... and never got hay. In the winter, my 1000 pound horse would do fine on 4 flakes - about 20 pounds, and my 1300 pound horse would get 6 flakes ... about 30 pounds. Occasionally I'd give an extra flake in the late pm before I went to bed if it was really cold - but more so they'd have the digestion to help make body heat than for nutrition.

[Lieslot]

Originally Posted by NewbieEventer

I'm sure there are horses with special health conditions that require other arrangements. But there are other ways to combat these problems that would be least detrimental to the horse. For example, instead of no turnout at all, turn out on dry lot. Or put one of those muzzle grazers on. Horses need turnout. And if the hay is too rich for the horse, you can always get a hay with lower nutrition value. The equine digestive system is not meant to withstand long periods without roughage. Buy some lower-nutrient hay so that you don't compromise its GI. Fat horses get ulcers too, btw. IMO, witholding hay, water, or turnout is never a long-term solution.

So true. One of the lame reasons I used to get given for no ad-lib hay : our hay is "supreme" quality, it's so rich, it should not be given ad-lib. Okay, well in that case am I allowed to buy my own hay from a different supplier. No, we don't like you doing so, as this disrupts our operation. Okay fair enough, totally understand, in that case I still want to have ad-lib hay, but have the hay soaked for 3 hours (which I will do 'myself') so no labor involved.

I got it my way in the end, but why does one have to 'fight' for this, where really it's only natural to a horse and secondly why does one have to feel like their requests come from another planet.
I'd honestly rather spent my money an extra boardfees then the monthly cost of a course of gastroguard.....

This is the whole reason I have the horses at home, no more fighting over extra hay, bedding etc. I do miss the social interaction of a boarding barn however, but one can't have it all.

To those boarders that have such requests, but refuse to pay the premium, too bad, get them to move out or accept what's part of the current board. No BO should ever be out!
Be precise in boarding contrast, x-amount of bedding provided, x-amount of hay etc etc..... Also do make a different pricing schedule for the 12hh pony vs the 18.2hh WB. When I used to board my 18hh-plussers used to get the same amount of hay as the fjord next door, it only takes common sense to realize that this is probably not right.

[Lieslot]

Originally Posted by SpottedTApps

4-6 hours a day without hay isn't going to kill them

No it may not kill them, but it may well make a difference between an ulcerated stomach or colon and a healthy digestive system. A lot depends if it's 2 hours without hay here or there, or if it's without hay from 3am till 7am.

Originally Posted by SpottedTAps

To compensate for weight issues in different horses, each horse gets different feed. If someone is looking a little porky, they get less, a little ribby they get more.

Totally correct, each horse is an individual and needs to be fed as such. Cutting down on roughage to correct weight issues, is NOT the way to go. Rather cut down on quality of roughage, not on quantity.

[NewbieEventer]

Originally Posted by Lieslot

No it may not kill them, but it may well make a difference between an ulcerated stomach or colon and a healthy digestive system. A lot depends if it's 2 hours without hay here or there, or if it's without hay from 3am till 7am.



Totally correct, each horse is an individual and needs to be fed as such. Cutting down on roughage to correct weight issues, is NOT the way to go. Rather cut down on quality of roughage, not on quantity.

I wish more people followed these practices.

[trubandloki]

Originally Posted by Lieslot

Totally correct, each horse is an individual and needs to be fed as such. Cutting down on roughage to correct weight issues, is NOT the way to go. Rather cut down on quality of roughage, not on quantity.

And tell me - what do you do when you have a WAY easy keeper that gets only grass hay fed in an slow feeder but still is obese and has their hay gone in record time and is getting the right amount of hay for their weight?

These horses do exist.....

Oh yeah, no grain....

[LauraKY]

Boy am I lucky. So far (one exception with a training horse, so at least owner wasn't around day to day) we've had wonderful boarders! We feed free choice hay and our policy is clearly posted that we feed enough so that they always have some hay left (ideally, they're eating the last piece as I put more hay in). Some will waste hay. One of my guys is the worst. Some days he will chow down and others he will throw it around. Our policy also states that if you don't believe they have enough hay, bedding, whatever, let us know. We do charge a surcharge for extra bedding, etc.

As for water buckets, if I find a dry bucket in the morning, the horse gets two, if two dry buckets, he gets three. On a hot day, we check every couple of hours. We treat boarders like their our own (and ours are spoiled).

Guess that's why we have a waiting list for a stall that will open up next May. Try to keep the lines of communication open and be open to new ideas. I'm NEVER always right!

[saultgirl]

Another thing I would like to note:

Some BO's are very rigid that 1.5-2% of body weight is acceptable, but don't take into consideration the horses that are actually in WORK. A horse on a full work schedule needs to be eating more than the pasture puffs.

[Auburn]

LauraKY,

Good for you! If I hadn't found my current situation (Thank Goodness!), I was going to make the 50 minute drive down to Lexington to board my horse.

For those of you who still believe that horses can go more than 2 hours without something in their stomachs, I suggest that you get a subscription to "The Horse" magazine. It is the magazine for the AAEP. There are many articles in it and online about ulcers and equine nutrition. You might find them informative.

Of course, I did bring an AAEP article to the BO in Ohio, who said, "What do those Vets know anyway? They are always coming up with some new crazy idea". Never stop learning. Sometimes your way may not be in the best interest of the horse.

OP,

Sorry for getting off topic. I just felt a need to address some of the other issues that were brought up.

[johnnysauntie]

I've just moved into a new place, and they feed abundant hay (and grain.) I have a hard keeper TB, and they have a barn full of air fern QHs. Bless them, when we moved in, the BO eyeballed my horse and said she'd like to see a bit more weight on him, did I agree? I did, and she drew up the feeding plan. H's getting 1 3/4 scoops of concentrates daily - where most of the air ferns get a quarter scoop. When he comes in at night, four flakes are waiting for him (he gets plenty outside.) And they invited me to feed him another, if he needs it.

And here's my point. We talked about hay, and they are big proponents of feeding plenty - but they don't want to waste it. Nor do I. So, basically, it's about trust and respect. They trust me to be respectful of their resources, and to not waste hay - and I am. I will occasionally throw him an additional flake before I leave - if he's finished most of his hay - but that is the rare occasion.

Good communication, and mutual trust and respect.

[winkybear]

I have read this entire thread and now I shall climb upon my soapbox and add my 2 cents worth...

Having been both a boarder, then a Barn Owner in 2 different states, and now forced to be a boarder again (due to disability) I think there is merit to all sides of this discussion EXCEPT one:

the fact that this boarder is stealing and has done so in the past.

Now, the following might upset some of you but I am going to say it anyway

This is a personality problem and will not change. IMHO this boarder is always going to find something to steal because it's the 'thrill' of the theft that is most important to this person, NOT the amount of hay or flaxseed or, or, or.

I have boarded at large barns where the BO's hay and grain is always under lock and key --- that might be an option for the OP but IMHO it won't stop the thief from stealing. He'll find something else.

The fact that he 'went silent' after the OP confronted him was most likely a way to punish his victim for daring to confront him.

This guy's got some serious issues. While these issues may change over time, they will never entirely go away.

I don't believe the OP should feel one bit bad or ashamed or bashful about confronting him on his second thieving episode. No doubt he wants her to, but that is just one more way he 'justifies' his actions to himself.

We are, and should be, perfectly within our rights to fully expect law-abiding/contract-abiding behavior from our clients on our property.

Gender 'should' have nothing to do with it, but in reality some of us gals were overburdened with a desire to 'get along' with every one and 'make peace' where we can. This is a noble ideal, but NOT when the other person is breaking the law.

This guy's got some serious issues. He is a liar, a thief, and a master of manipulation. Some folks might say that makes him dangerous.

While these issues may change over time, they will never entirely go away.

In short -- the guy's a thief. Period. OP, you've caught him twice. He ain't gonna stop.





Um, thanks for reading all this....
....climbing down off my soapbox now.....

[trubandloki]

Fine post Winky! Well said. I do agree.

[ChocoMare]

Originally Posted by winkybear

I have read this entire thread and now I shall climb upon my soapbox and add my 2 cents worth...

Having been both a boarder, then a Barn Owner in 2 different states, and now forced to be a boarder again (due to disability) I think there is merit to all sides of this discussion EXCEPT one:

the fact that this boarder is stealing and has done so in the past.

Now, the following might upset some of you but I am going to say it anyway

This is a personality problem and will not change. IMHO this boarder is always going to find something to steal because it's the 'thrill' of the theft that is most important to this person, NOT the amount of hay or flaxseed or, or, or.

I have boarded at large barns where the BO's hay and grain is always under lock and key --- that might be an option for the OP but IMHO it won't stop the thief from stealing. He'll find something else.

The fact that he 'went silent' after the OP confronted him was most likely a way to punish his victim for daring to confront him.

This guy's got some serious issues. While these issues may change over time, they will never entirely go away.

I don't believe the OP should feel one bit bad or ashamed or bashful about confronting him on his second thieving episode. No doubt he wants her to, but that is just one more way he 'justifies' his actions to himself.

We are, and should be, perfectly within our rights to fully expect law-abiding/contract-abiding behavior from our clients on our property.

Gender 'should' have nothing to do with it, but in reality some of us gals were overburdened with a desire to 'get along' with every one and 'make peace' where we can. This is a noble ideal, but NOT when the other person is breaking the law.

This guy's got some serious issues. He is a liar, a thief, and a master of manipulation. Some folks might say that makes him dangerous.

While these issues may change over time, they will never entirely go away.

In short -- the guy's a thief. Period. OP, you've caught him twice. He ain't gonna stop.





Um, thanks for reading all this....
....climbing down off my soapbox now.....

Preach it sista!

Call it what it is: Stealing.

If you want to give him another chance, you buy a small-mesh hay net for 10 bucks from Miller Harness and add a $15 charge to his next board bill (shipping & handling included, of course . They're easy to fill (just place hay on an overturned bucket and slide net over....draw up drawstring and secure/haung up as you desire).

Horse will be munching non-stop allll night long, no more wasted hay and your hay stays securely in YOUR horse's stall/hay shed.

[Lieslot]

Originally Posted by trubandloki

And tell me - what do you do when you have a WAY easy keeper that gets only grass hay fed in an slow feeder but still is obese and has their hay gone in record time and is getting the right amount of hay for their weight?

You are right these guys exist. I've not got one of my own, but have had friends with obese easykeepers.
My approach, feed ad-lib mulch hay or old stemmy timothy and/or straw that has been soaked for at least 3 hours. And great idea to use a slowfeeder.
Secondly obese and easy keepers, somehow have a slow metabolism. I'd be looking into ways to up their metabolic rate.
Exercise as much as pos and feed chromium on a daily basis.
It's important to try to get their system to burn calories again, rather then shut the system down by depriving them of roughage.
They need to keep chewing as much as pos, they need to be creating saliva, to protect their stomachs. Sorry but that's how nature built them, created them, they are 20 hours a day grazers and you cannot deny that.
So if whatever you are feeding them is making them fat, then try to find different ways to drastically cut the calories, but keep the system working. Don't slow the metabolism down even more by restricting even more. You can restrict, but need to drip-drop feed all day/night long. No horse should be left with nothing to nibble on.

[Lieslot]

Winkybear is right, it's indeed theft and to steal of another horse would upset me even more then if he were to be stealing directly out of the haybarn. That is so wrong.

[TheJenners]

Dude, am I invisible?? I posted a simple one-line post on page two stating it was stealing.

[trubandloki]

Vet can not find anything wrong with horse other than a lameness issue that restricts exercise. So your theory is great. But just does not work in the real world some times.
Honestly, with this horse it would be impossible to put out enough hay to keep him eating all day with out putting out full bales.
A small hole hay net with 10 pounds of soaked grass hay in it is gone in less than two hours.

Again, no grain.

Some horses are just hoovers!

And I guess I should chase my mare out into the pasture to eat next time I notice she is up near the barn for more than 2 hours at a time. She does have 24/7 access to pasture but I guarantee she is not out there 20 hours per day.


Edit to add: The easy keeper gelding also does eat his straw stall bedding. And no, he is out 24/7 with access to his stall and a dry lot.

[vali]

A lot of it has to do with hay quality as well. Lower quality oat or grass hay may be fine nutritionally if supplemented appropriately, but horses will leave more of it behind as they pick through the more straw like bits. Hay nets aren't always optimal because it's better for a horses respiratory systems to feed from the ground, and many horses simply pull the hay out and eat it on the ground. I used to use a lay up/breeding farm for my horses either when I was pregnant or they had suffered soft tissue injuries, but then they switched to growing their own hay, which was crappy. I pulled both of my horses out of there after repeated conversations with the owner did not help, and I had three other friends who also ended up having to pull their horses, one of which had dropped to a three on the body scale. I even offered to pay more in board to have extra feed fed, but the owner kept insisting they were getting plenty of hay and that "a virus had been going around." I have kept horses at home, and used to have a few boarders, but sometimes you need to bring in the vet to convince either a irrational barn owner or horse owner to be reasonable. Perhaps the vet can provide their opinion of whether the horse is obese or needs the extra hay. I agree that depriving your horse of hay is not a good response.

[winkybear]

Originally Posted by trubandloki

Fine post Winky! Well said. I do agree.

Well, I am new here, so thanks for the support!

[winkybear]

Originally Posted by ChocoMare

Preach it sista!

Call it what it is: Stealing.

Thanks!