Hunter breeding article series in COTH

[Running Fox Farm]

Have any of y'all been following the Maloomian/editor/Gary Baker articles in the recent issues of COTH referencing the hunter breeding division? " Good old boy network? " "If you don't respect a judge on any given day, don't go." " What's discouraging to all involved is when the better horse doesn't win because another handler in the class was allowed to speak to the judges before and during the judging process." I am a breeder, have shown my own in hand ( for a while anyway). Owners,handlers and God-forbid breeders, whAt's your opinions/experiences?

[PineTreeFarm]

Yes, I've been reading them and I'm surprised nobody else has commented. A common theme concerns the point of the division. Is it to find a reward those horses that will be future performance horses or a beauty contest?

From this weeks's article.

"First of all, nowhere is it written that the hunter breeding division began as a way to determine which horses were going to become great performance horses. I’ve always thought of this division as a “beauty contest.” The beautiful girls that win those beauty contests don’t usually go on to be great businesswomen. They might, but that’s not the point of the contest!"

[YankeeLawyer]

Originally Posted by PineTreeFarm

From this weeks's article.

"First of all, nowhere is it written that the hunter breeding division began as a way to determine which horses were going to become great performance horses. I’ve always thought of this division as a “beauty contest.” The beautiful girls that win those beauty contests don’t usually go on to be great businesswomen. They might, but that’s not the point of the contest!"

Oh my, how did I miss that gem of a statement? It is offensive on a number of levels.

[PineTreeFarm]

Originally Posted by YankeeLawyer

Oh my, how did I miss that gem of a statement? It is offensive on a number of levels.

Yes indeed, that's why I'm surprised nobody noticed it.

edited to add that I've sent a PM to the Mods asking if it's OK to quote longer passages from the articles or even the entire article. I'm not sure how much pasting is allowed with magazine content.
I'm sure there are some without a COTH mag subscription that would like to see the articles in their entirety.

[chunky munky]

I am too surprised that nobody has really started this before. I am not all that interested in the political issues, that snake has been beaten to death here with a stick. It will always be the same outcome. Winners are fine with the judging, losers are not. But I am VERY curious to read response to the hunter breeding being equated to the beauty contest. I think Mr. Baker could have stayed a bit more politically correct had he chosen an analogy to a dog show( and in fact I believe he often has dogs showing). Are we showing poodles in this division? Or do most feel the judging should strongly consider the future of the animal as a performance prospect? I hope this gets interesting.

[VarsityHero4]

I noticed it and certainly think it's true after seeing some of the legs on some of the HB winners. Also, when they're too busy rearing and leaping how can you tell what their legs look like? I don't and never really have cared about the ribbons, I just go for the socializing and to get my youngens some show ring experience before I have to be on top of them. No matter the politics I'll continue to go and I think there are others that see it the same way. I think it's silly not to take the placings with a grain of salt.

[VirginiaBred]

I doubt if Gary meant anything negative with his response so I didn't read more into it than need be.

[Tabwrdd_ridge]

I have noticed the same trend. To the point that when I'm picking out stallions I am more concerned with how many babies they've put on the ground that are 'going and doing' in the performance arena and not so much about how many have pinned well on the line.

I handled ponies ( might be a different ball game entirely then showing horses on the line) for 2 friends this year at Devon. My first time doing something that big. I am a total no name amateur who just enjoys showing prospects on the line. I showed a yearling to 6th place and a 2 year old to 3rd place and all ( owners and myself) were just tickled with the results and felt they were fair.

Both ponies have bloodlines w/ champion performance ponies in there backgrounds and I am sure both will go own to be serious contenders when they are a bit older in the performance arena. Both owners are small breeders and we went to a few 'A' shows to prep the ponies for Devon.

On another note, I would love to see them pin things that are 'fit' and not 'fat'. Founder fat is pretty, but so unhealthy for the growing joints. I see alot of them that look like they should go be in a qh halter class they are so fat.. But not much you can do about that..

my 2 cents.. shrug..

[Samotis]

I think the hunter breeding certainly has issues to be worked out.

It is essentially a beauty contest. But, it should be a little more then that, and on some days it is! Obviously you want a hunter to be beautiful. I think that the judging criteria could be tweaked, but I am just glad that the classes are available. Hunters also need to have a beautiful canter which you can't see in a HB class!

I bred my mare to get a performance horse for myself as I can't afford to buy one.

I chose a stallion that has plenty of young horses showing in hunters and jumpers. Babies have also done the HB stuff. I chose him for his great record with performing offspring and my foal has been just what I wanted.

While he isn't the perfect HB horse, I still take him to the shows and will continue too. It is good show experience and I am glad to have an excuse to go to the shows!!!

So while there are many people that want that winning HB horse, I think that many people also take their babies for the experience and don't necassarily need the first place ribbon!

It would be great if the HB continued to evolve to more of a future performance horse class.

[PineTreeFarm]

Originally Posted by VirginiaBred

I doubt if Gary meant anything negative with his response so I didn't read more into it than need be.

Only met him once or twice so I have no idea what he meant by that comment.
BUT unless he has been living under a rock for a very long time he should know better than to make statements like that ( no matter what he really thinks).

[chunky munky]

Originally Posted by VirginiaBred

I doubt if Gary meant anything negative with his response so I didn't read more into it than need be.

I agree that Gary meant nothing negative. The point is: Is Hunter Breeeding simply a beauty contest? Or is there a judgement of movement and a thought of 'hopeful hunter"?
There are many that have have posted opinions regarding this premise that have spoken their minds on numerous occasions.
Many of us would like to hear you step up where we have been given a clear forum to yay or nay. The lack of response will show agreement. Many of us involved in some way with the hunter breeding world will take it under advisement that you agree with the beauty contest way of judging. I have had serious discussions with many people involved with this dilemma. Bucky Reynolds. Kenny Wheeler, have both commented that the movement is exteremely important in the hunter judging. Bucky has stated that it should be VERY important in hunter breeding.
So now lets hear more from the populous, those in the trenches now breeding. What are you breeding for? This is an open forum to speak about what you are breeding for. Not the time to clam up.

[amylmac]

I am an owner who is very actively showing several horses and ponies in the HB. I switched from the Hunter preformance two years ago and now show only HB. I do use a handler, Emily Belin , to prep and show my animals. I love watching them and being involved in this less stressful( for me) part of showing. I purchase and now breed with the HB in mind BUT also to produce ponies that I would put my own grandchildren on and horses I would not be afraid of to ride myself. Movement to me is paramount and I believe it should count equally. I also feel that by September these " babies" should no longer be rearing and kicking out at their handlers. I doubt this is the type of preformance that anyone wants! I for one am confused as to why this is even an issue. Pretty is as pretty does!

[Samotis]

At the West coast Sally B Wheeler and IHF I didn't see any of the babies act up in a class. The yearlings were the best of the bunch!

Mine had a little meltdown the night before. ( I think I took him out too much), but it was his first show and he was fantastic in the classes.

I was very impressed with all the babies attitudes. I felt like the judges didn't look at movement enough and even saw some start to turn around while a horse was trotting!

It is obvious that the canter can't be judged, but they could put more emphasis on the walk and trot, (not jog). I haven't seen too many horses with bad canters that have a good walk. Usually if they can walk the talk, they can canter well!!

I personally bred for performance someday in the hunter derbies. I did search the IHF stallions first and was willing to look elsewhere if I didn't find a stallion I liked. I was lucky and found one that was perfect for my mare.

[About Time]

I am breeding for performance but I do also agree that a hunter does need to beautiful. I am new to the HB world and excited about getting involved. I did notice right away that things seemed to be political at times under some judges. I am happy to take the babies around and just have a good time but can honestly say it is a little bit frustrating when you see a horse beat another that clearly (to everyone on the show grounds) should not have won for very obvious reasons. I am not talking about my own horses. I feel they did just fine. There were several people's horses I saw that at times got ripped off. Some of these horses I knew and others I did not.


I agree that the trot should be as close to the way we hack the hunters as possible, which is a forward, bright trot. We aren't showing western pleasure horses here. And if the walk is indicative of the canter, then maybe it should have much more importance placed on it since the canter is the gait we jump from.

Something that seems sad to me is that we would need to say "I am going to choose a stallion suitable for hunter performance and not for Hunter Breeding because I want my horse to be able to grow up and do the derbies". Aren't we breeding the one for the future of the other? And therefore how can the HB be judged only as a beauty contest? Aren't these young horses eventually going to grow up and have to move on and do something else other than show on the line?! If its called Hunter Breeding, I guess their future would need to be in the hunters so why should HB be strictly a beauty pageant?

[VirginiaBred]

What I see as a one of the big problems is so many breeders breeding to "the flavor of the month" (lots of bling, certain color, etc.) as opposed to going for the proven performance bloodlines.

*edited to add - there is so much of this going on in the past 10 or so years in particular.

[rocksolid]

I think Randee made a very good point about the "flavor of the month." Unfortunately this happens in all types of horse breeding whether sport or racing. What is especially disturbing is that the people breed unproven mares to the "new" Stallion. If the baby comes out wrong, who do you blame? In terms of judging, movement and conformation are supposed to be rated equal, but every judge is different. A few years ago at Devon, the Yearling Pony Colt class had half the entries excused before they ever jogged. You can believe that some people were not happy. All the work it takes to get to Devon and you don't get to jog your pony. I think enough people complained and the other classes got to jog.

[SilverBalls]

Personally, I never know how to take Gary, but I will say that Mr. Baker is generally not compulsive, and I find him to be very calculating. I could care less what he meant... the bottom line is what he actually said! We could mind screw this all day.

HB showing is dying a slow death. I never realized just how close knit and political it really was until I got involved.

I am not going to beat around the bush. The good ole boy's club clearly exists. Our esteemed USEF/USHJA has several comittees involved in this venue. The committee taking charge is chaired by Ray Francis, with Kenny Wheeler, Thom Brede, Julie Kennedy, and several others on the panel. So the jog/trot met resistance, and the latest is the double point shows which I consider to be a joke. You have 2 judges ( chatting up a storm and comparing notes etc ) then the pinning. We get double points, double entry fees and sometimes judges who cannot recall how they pinned the classes, and BYH sometimes makes no sense....

I see manipulation at it's finest when judges are selected to judge major venues... ie: Devon, Upperville, Warrenton, and SBW East & West.

In my opinion Kenny Wheeler should not participate in the SBW as an exhibitor. I think it's in bad taste... but that's me.
Did he have the BYH at Devon 20+ times... probably not. However, he is an amazing horseman, has a good eye for a horse, and could do less participating and more helping from the sidelines at this point. He is amazing!

Should handlers and judges converse blatantly at a shows in the ring and out? Should handlers show horses that are lame or have blemishes when it counts against them? Should handlers and committee members be allowed to judge each other?

There are only a handful of people out there directly involved with HB through our governing organizations, that really have someone else's agenda other than their own on the priority list.

I do not play well with others, and calls it like I sees it, so I avoid committees. Many of us have been whispering about the "Warrenton Protest" in which a big name handler protested another handler/owner for talking with a judge during the class. The hearing may be this week....

Let's not try to analyze every little thing someone says... just fix it!

Sorry, but I am not going to candy coat this any longer... I am in this to help make a difference finally. There will always be a flavor of the month... but the good bloodlines will stand the test of time.

[FLIPPED HER HALO]

Originally Posted by About Time

Aren't these young horses eventually going to grow up and have to move on and do something else other than show on the line?! If its called Hunter Breeding, I guess their future would need to be in the hunters so why should HB be strictly a beauty pageant?

From what I have seen and read on this forum and others, many of those HB fillies just do HB classes then are sent right to the breeding shed to reproduce based on their HB scores. I think that is a huge problem. They are pretty and get ribbons so go on to just be "trophy wives." That doesn't actually show they have talent and should be reporducing. I've noticed a trend as well with some of the colts that just compete until they are 4 then are put to stud and that's it.

It seems in many ways it becomes like the arabian world of halter horses where they never have a real career other than posing for judges. I just don't understand that.

[VirginiaBred]

Originally Posted by rocksolid

A few years ago at Devon, the Yearling Pony Colt class had half the entries excused before they ever jogged. You can believe that some people were not happy. All the work it takes to get to Devon and you don't get to jog your pony. I think enough people complained and the other classes got to jog.

Could you even believe that?!!!? That was one for the books, for sure.

[sporthorsefilly]

Politics are not "new". Overheard ringside, back in 1963: "Oh my daughter should do well today, we took (Judge) out to dinner last night, and had a wonderful time." My parents couldn't afford to wine and dine judges but I enjoyed and won with my horses.

Politics are a fact of life. This isn't new, or different it is a fact of life. So What?? I don't let what I can't change bother me, nor deter me from enjoying my horses. I had so much fun showing my filly this year, and she did very respectably on her own merit.

I like showing a horse in hand for the first few years. It accustoms them to sights and sounds that they don't have at home. It also allows me to enjoy them without stressing either of us.

Yes, my "beautiful fatties" will do performance, but I am in no rush. They aren't heading to the breeding shed either. The hold back is that I have to go on a diet too, so I can ride my own horses in the ring.

As for Gary's statement of "Beauty contest." All life is indeed a beauty contest. I prefer a beautiful horse to an ugly one, simply because I see them morning and night. I doubt that any of us have seen "ugly" hunters in the show ring lately.