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  1. #1
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    Default Do dressagies even know what western is anymore?

    The other day a friend and I were having the age old debate of dressage vs. every other sport on the planet and how much the others fall short (snort). I showed her this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i90uitCdq54 video and she was shocked at how little she knew about the western riders and how much traning their horses go through too!!! Just thought I should post to try to broaden some of those horizons.


    PS I do love dressage!



  2. #2
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    Default

    Honey, anyone can have an obediant and quiet horse that does his job. Heck, anyone can train flat flying lead changes, let a horse go like a stick and ride through a set of cones. The real challege of dressage is to do it correctly and that isn't correct by dressage standards.
    Kelly
    It is rare to see a rider who is truly passionate about the horse and his training, taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation, and making this extraordinarily subtle work one of the dominant motivations of his life.\"



  3. #3
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    Default Honey!`

    Are you the one (tempichange) I just said on another thread was not so nice??? Yep!



  4. #4
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    Default

    not dressage but no one said it was.

    looks like a pleasant ride.
    A man must love a thing very much if he not only practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practices it without any hope of doing it well.--G. K. Chesterton



  5. #5
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    Default

    I don't debate the fact that western riding is hard, or that it doesn't involve a lot of training on the part of both horse and rider. My issue in fact is not with western in the sense that involves different tack, different goals, or ideals; it is in what many competion riders produce. In my opinion, dressage furthers the horse's natural abilities and predispositions. We see the basis of our movements in horses at liberty, and then we act to improve or bring out the abilities of our mounts. On the other hand, I have never seen a horse at liberty lope with its head low or jog for extended periods of time. A horse has a natural stride length and way of going that makes it easy to travel and manuever without a huge energy expenditure, to me, western pleasure ignore this. That's not to say that dressage isn't taxing on the horse, and I really don't want to get into the whole debate of riding being unnatural, I just see dressage as a "lesser evil."

    If you've ever watched a wild horse, or even a domestic one in turn-out, you can't deny the fact that they are amazing to watch when they cavort about. You know the image I'm talking about, something a bit like this:
    http://soil.uwyo.edu/sites/courses/c...d%20Horses.jpg
    If these horse were loping along like the horse in the western video, I don't think I'd have the goosebumps that I do when I see a horse at-liberty.



  6. #6
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    Default

    Are you the one (tempichange) I just said on another thread was not so nice??? Yep!
    She's also correct. Very flat with little life to it at all. A manufactured gait.
    *** 4 More Years ***
    *** 4 More Years ***



  7. #7
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    Are you the one (tempichange) I just said on another thread was not so nice??? Yep!
    I paticularly don't care if the comments were taken as nice or not. What they were, and are still, is truthful.

    I don't doubt the preperation it takes to get a horse to a specific level of competition, it takes sweat equity to do so.

    However, like Lynx, my problem doesn't lye in different tack or clothes, but rather what the end result of that training produces. As previous said, anyone can train flying lead changes, you can even do auto changes, you can train a horse to be as flat and obiediant as possible. It may be correct to that sport (or as many western magazines that I've picked up, subscribed to and read over the years will tell you it isn't correct), it isn't correct by dressage standards, not by a longshot.
    Kelly
    It is rare to see a rider who is truly passionate about the horse and his training, taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation, and making this extraordinarily subtle work one of the dominant motivations of his life.\"



  8. #8
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    Default

    I can never show my STB that. She would be really po'd that somewhere in the world horses are allowed, no, encouraged to 4-beat. Sorry sweetheart, maybe in your next life you'll live with that kind of mommy!



  9. #9
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    Default HMMMM

    How much time have you guys spent around the western breeds (good ones). They as babies lope and jog all of the time (if they are bred well) no way is it manufactured and you consider it flat and lifeless because why?Its head isnt up and bobbing? THey are low for COWS but choose to show off their movement in a show like the WAR HORSES that do dressage instead of battle LOL> Its not lifeless just relaxed and very steady and how they are bred. I may be fighting this battle for a while huh?



  10. #10
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    Dec. 18, 2004
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    Wisconsin
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    Cool God, Horses & WP

    I don't see riding as unnatural, Look at the Good Book and you will see that our Lord rode a donkey, and that he is coming back on a horse..... so I think that if the Creator of the world sees the horse as fit to be ridden, then I for one will believe that the Lord intended for horses to be used for transportation, companionship, etc. I mean, when you look at it, He created animals first & then told us to hang out with them! No wonder it feels so good to hang out at the barn, the Creator of the universe even chose to be born in a hay manger...so when we want to ride horses, hang out in a stable or lay in the hay....I think it is the most natural thing on earth! Life as God intended....
    Maybe the folks who see it as unnatural believe more in evolution? NOt sure.
    If so, that's okay, it's their free choice to believe that, too.

    About Dressage & Western, saying "Western" is a broad statement. There are many variations in "Western".
    For sake of arguement, Western Pleasure...does nothing to further the useful life of the horse, actually premature collection usually causes arthritic changes in the joints, esp. the hocks, so WP is not for me. I am drawn to sports that encourage the lengthening the useful life of horses. Overall, you will see older, (Late teen) dressage horses at the pinnacle of the sport....and you will not typically see that in WP. Even in Endurance, the oldest horse to ever complete the Tevis cup ( the toughest 100 mile 1 day race) was 27 years of age....it is common to see old horses in endurance. One man I just met rides his 16 year old horse to top finishes in endurance on a regular basis,
    I have seen 20 + year old endurance horses do a 25 mile Competitive Trail ride without breaking a sweat.....
    The difference even flows over to the respective halter classes for each sport,
    Western halter classes often reward horses that have conformational faults,
    and Sport Horse in Hand classes are much more particular and have a rigid guideline to score horses, and where you actually get a score back, not a subjective placing......
    I love western riding, just not WP, I have seen too many horses bred with faults for WP, because they will lope better with lower hocks, look prettier- regardless of tiny feet on a 1500 pd horse.....
    One of our friends is a top team penner, and he trains his horses to approximately 3rd level.... as he also shows them in working cow classes, reining etc... He is a real horseman, knows his stuff, western trainer, though no WP guy, no way....
    So, Saying "Western" is like saying you dressage rider rides english....
    Of course if you told an Arabian show circuit person you rode english,
    that would mean saddle seat!!!!!!!!!! LOL Sorry to be so off track.....WP is just a pet peeve with me & I hate to see horses suffer with premature joint pain!!!!!! I know, many dressage horses are on joint support, though overall you do see many more older dressage horses and not many WP horses in their teens.........
    JMHO



  11. #11
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    Default

    so far this thread is proving that the answer is NO to the OP question: "Do dressagies even know what western is anymore? "



  12. #12
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    Its head isnt up and bobbing? THey are low for COWS but choose to show off their movement in a show like the WAR HORSES that do dressage instead of battle LOL> Its not lifeless just relaxed and very steady and how they are bred. I may be fighting this battle for a while huh?
    Western Pleasure has nothing to do with "Cutting" cows. Most cutters I know think what the Western Pleasure people do to their horses is criminal.

    I had a trainer that taught my quarter horse by working the cows More than half of his clients were dressage riders, very few were Western Pleasure.



  13. #13
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    Default

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVFrHaEQReM

    Then here is more contraversy
    ~ Kimberlee
    www.SpunkyDiva.com



  14. #14
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    Default Not really

    When you used the statement "Western halter classes" I knew how little you know about it. Halter is halter ... Western Pleasure is Wp... and this video is of Western Riding... the competition for several breeds. This horse is not four beating by the way his back end is not trotting ( i think thats pretty obvious). I think we can all learn more about eachothers breeds and disciplines without basing dont you? Anyway when you guys post your world champions on here and tell me you left the sport anyway then youll have my attention. When i posted western riding that was the name of the type of competion posted it is call the Wester riding class (has patterns will travel). LOL Ignorance can be quite contageous.



  15. #15
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    Default

    Western Riding is a tricky class. I would say most amateur ridden dressage horses would not be able to do a western riding pattern relaxed and on a loose rein. What a pretty ride to watch, thanks for sharing.

    For those who aren't familiar with what a Western Riding class is here are more details on rules and the various patterns they use http://www.westernriding.co.za/westernriding.htm



  16. #16
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    People! Don't feed the trolls!
    Founding member of the "I Miss bar.ka" clique
    Founding member of the "I Miss Pocket Trainer" clique



  17. #17
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    Default SM and Renae !

    Thank you for your posting. I posted this world champion to show how nice these horses can ride. My mistake on the AQHA forums they post the dressage horses sometimes and everyone oohs and aahs over how awesome the musical freestyle is. THis is a hate it and keep away from it kinda forum.



  18. #18
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    The other day a friend and I were having the age old debate of dressage vs. every other sport on the planet and how much the others fall short (snort).
    I don't look at as this -v-that. I love horses, love riding horses and know that all riding has it's difficulties and challenges. I've ridden western, saddle seat, driven fine harness, jumped and ridden dressage. Personally, I prefer dressage and XC jumping, but know that not all riders OR horses are wired right for dressage, just like not all horses are WP horses, barrel horses, reining horses, hunters, park horses or EP horses.

    Thank GOD for diversity! Enjoy your sport, enjoy your horse, that's what it's all about.



  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    on the AQHA forums they post the dressage horses sometimes and everyone oohs and aahs over how awesome the musical freestyle is...
    Well, that should tell you something.
    Founding member of the "I Miss bar.ka" clique
    Founding member of the "I Miss Pocket Trainer" clique



  20. #20
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
    How much time have you guys spent around the western breeds (good ones). They as babies lope and jog all of the time (if they are bred well) no way is it manufactured and you consider it flat and lifeless because why?Its head isnt up and bobbing? THey are low for COWS but choose to show off their movement in a show like the WAR HORSES that do dressage instead of battle LOL> Its not lifeless just relaxed and very steady and how they are bred. I may be fighting this battle for a while huh?
    We didn't start it.

    I spent a good time around cow horses. Well-bred quarter horses who, actually work on the ranch. These were rumuda bred qh's who took top ten in the AQHA Rumuda competition and went on to successful reining and cutting careers with ammie owners. They move nothing like modern WP horses, and look nothing like them as well.

    They do stand up to years of actual work. I've seen some pretty successful WP horses, who do not look like that, and actually do define the ideals of WP. That doesn't define it, and looks quite... bastardized.

    There is a difference between relaxed and mechanical- relaxed actually has forward motion, and allows that gaits to actually be utlized however. You can be relaxed and go that slow. Relaxation doesn't look lame. That is lame, or looking very sore.


    While dressage has its basis in battle, it really came about and was sustained for royalty, it went away from it's war horse roots very quickly. And it is very much more than just a head set and head bob.
    Kelly
    It is rare to see a rider who is truly passionate about the horse and his training, taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation, and making this extraordinarily subtle work one of the dominant motivations of his life.\"



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