[Ginger]

Lighten up, Thomas. We're all beginners at some point in something. I hope you have a wonderful drive today.

Hitch, I saw you, I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to say hello. You were with JJ, weren't you?

[slc2]

you aren't being foolish, just arrogant and snotty .

i love to hear what everyone's advice is and have learned alot here! as always there may be reasons for little adjustments, and i may - god forbid, not always follow your advice slavishly, thomas. but advice is always useful,and always accepted gratefully.

[Coup De Des]

Got pictures SLC2? Would love to see them.

[Cartfall]

Just curious, what is the difference?

Well, DJ, as I am still learning to long line correctly, I am still trying to come to terms with the difference. It is as different from ground driving as dressage is from plodding down the trail. Long lining is a training that many dressage trainers use. I usd ground driving on roads and trails to give my young horse experience before he was old enough to drive or ride. There really was not much other than me walking behind him and driving him forward down the road.

Long lining is something I have messed with inconjunction with ground driving but never knew it. I have in the past year had to improve the dressage on my Arabian for CDEs. I started longlineing and got some help from a local dressage trainer. The more I practiced, the more I began to understand how it worked with the dressage.

Hope this helps. I am still learning and the more I learn the more I begin to see how much I still have to learn.

[~Freedom~]

my new pony is now ground driving! he should be world champion in no time

i can work him on a circle with the lines over his back or walk behind him.

the local instructor told me to take having the line around the back of him in stages, since he's so unhandled. she said absolutely do not put the line around his hind quarters right now. i asked her about that.

Since you got this far I am assuming it is because of all the good books you have read about ground training that is useful for ALL aspects of equestrian training. You did say you went to grand prix dressage? They usually tell you to NOT rush. To say a horse is going to be a world champion in no time looks to me like you have the cart before the horse...errr pony.

I would re-read those books slc as you may have missed something.

[Coup De Des]

Freedom, in story books the heroine always rescues the naggy, emaciated, neglected horse and has him from whoa to show in 3 months, despite the fact that she's never showed a horse before and must overcome many obstacles along the way such as the evil previous owner trying to reclaim horse, the horse getting sick, the horse being stolen, trouble with the family, stumbling across a jolly good old fashioned mystery with George, Anne, Timmy the dog and those boys...

Didn't you know that?

Sheesh.

[Auventera Two]

Freedom - slc made a joke, she wasn't serious.

SLC - I think you're doing a great job! Anyone who can make that much progress in two months, is obviously doing something right.

I started my Arab with the outside line over the back also, and not behind the hindquarter. The horse has to build confidence first. You can't just jump in behind them with a line on each side and say - away we go. Well, maybe on some horses you can get away with it, but it is a dangerous position to be in, should the horse have a problem with it. I've trained all our horses to ground drive, and I started every one of them with the outside line over the back first, and transitioned to the lines running behind the hindquarters later on.

[War Admiral]

I too am aware that SLC was joking.

However, as to the lines over the back - don't forget, Thomas, that over here we have this type of driving horse, which is NEVEREVER trained with the long lines around its quarters. The required frame precludes it and the light bikes/viceroys don't require breeching (they are stopped with tug stops).

To me, it really depends on what frame you are wanting the horse to go in and what *exact* purpose you are trying to achieve. I might adjust mine from ring to ring in any particular schooling session, depending on level and type of horse experience and what, precisely, I'm looking to teach (or correct).

Probably worth noting that my one experiment with Penny The Project Mare was done in the fashion SLC is describing, with lines over back, for somewhat similar reasons.

If there's a driving trainer on-site who has seen the pony, watched it work, and has recommended this approach, I'd keep on doin' what yer doin', SLC.

[slc2]

yes, i was joking. no one gets to be world champion that easily in any sport. i've spent years getting beat up in the dressage bb for saying it is not that easy to move up in dressage.

i simply love my pony and am glad we have him. i've been looking at a great big old warmblood face for years and no one prepared me for how completely CUTE a good welsh pony is.

no matter what happens, i'm glad he's with us and has a clean stall and good feed and trimmed feet. i love seeing him simply be able to look out the stall door and have the sun on his face, or eat grass or have a good roll in the sand. it will be as much as two YEARS before his feet are entirely balanced and his muscles develop. we have plenty of time.

have i read about driving? not as much as i'd like to. anyone who wants to recommend some really good books is welcome to.

at the same time, i know from dressage, that while bulletin board debates may demand the author to provide 'sources' and be able to debate cleverly to win bb popularity contests (people who don't quote sources argue they have 'practical experience' and chide those who quote books; those who quote books call those who don't 'uneducated', but it's very common in the TOB-style dressage debates to hear book quotes demanded or be roundly dissed), books aren't everything. there's no substitute for simply getting lessons from a good driving trainer. i think of books as a companion to learning any riding sport...but not the whole deal.

yep, previous poster, however, i have to be very careful about who i pick to listen to locally. i focus on people who are doing the same kind of driving i'm interested in and for whom i can see happy, good going lower level horses, as well as some upper level successes...i think that indicates a trainer who grasps the whole picture, even if i may never drive at that level. this has been the source of many debates on the dressage bb, suffice to say, i am entitled to my opinion, as is everyone else.

as far as the long lines behind the butt - of course. it's very true that it indispensable. and i'll do it in due time.

of all types of driving, i prefer how the combined driving horses look. they look natural and not in an exaggerated posture.

[Thomas_1]

I started my Arab with the outside line over the back also, and not behind the hindquarter.

And what sort of driving does this arab do?

The horse has to build confidence first. You can't just jump in behind them with a line on each side and say - away we go.

What is your training experience? How did you learn to long rein?

I've trained all our horses to ground drive, and I started every one of them with the outside line over the back first, and transitioned to the lines running behind the hindquarters later on.

Have you ever tried longreining how you should from the outset?

[hundredacres]

I mean no disrespect to anyone posting... I've seen the technique (2 lines over the back) in at least 2 books. One of them I am looking at right now...it is in 101 Longeing & Long Lining Exercises...page 88. It is used for part of the the Shallow Serpentine exercise - one must walk off to the side to make the shalllow bend.

What is so horrible about it?

[hitchinmygetalong]

Oh, I get it. It was a joke. Ha. Ha. Ha. I suppose this is another example of joking?

you aren't being foolish, just arrogant and snotty

Somehow the smiley face doesn't quite cancel out the arrogant and snotty adjectives. Sorry.

My limited experience in long lining and ground driving has meant outside rein behind the quarters. Just so you know which camp I'm in. If a line around the hindquarters freaks a horse out, something got missed in kindergarten. Go back and start again.

[hitchinmygetalong]

Isn't there a big difference between long-lining and ground driving?

Thomas! Please explain? Thank you.

[slc2]

this is a 8 or 10 year old pony that was never trained to do anything. it was abused and neglected. it spent the last 2 years locked in a barn standing on manure and being neglected. it had necrotic sores in its mouth and could barely stand. before that, at another barn, it ran loose in a cow pasture and was occasionally tied up. it came to us a basket case. it didn't know how to do anything. it was petrified. of COURSE there are things missing. and this IS kindergarten, which is why the lines aren't around his backside just yet. he's learning very fast and doing very well. to all of you who provided guidance, thanks.

[Auventera Two]

If a line around the hindquarters freaks a horse out, something got missed in kindergarten. Go back and start again.

I never said it "freaks the horse out." But it can cause confusion when the horse doesn't understand what you want. Horses are often taught to yield to pressure and when he feels even pressure on both reins with a human standing behind him, he might back up suddenly or spin around because he just doesn't know "what" the correct answer is. It doesn't have anything to do with feeling a line across his butt.

I have always started horses in a surcingle with the outside line through the highest ring, and brought over the back. This is how Saddlebreds are sometimes worked in hand. You can then "double longe" to accustom the horse to the feel of contact on both bit rings. As the horse gains confidence in his ability to move forward with the contact on both bit rings, you can move your body position reward, and take the outside rein reward also.

Also remember that the higher bitting position offers a less severe bit action. The lower the reins are, the more severe the action. So when you're just starting out, it's kind to the horse to set the lines up high, and run the off rein over the back to keep the bit pressure minimal. (same thing with side reins.)

In the beginning, the horse is learning to move left or right depending on which rein you apply pressure to. This is much easier to do, and much less confusing for the horse if your reins are shorter, e.g., you are on the near side of the horse with the off rein drawn over the back because you have a steadier and more consistent contact.

Usually within a few sessions, I have the horse ground driving, but I do start it as double longing, if that's what you want to call it. I start working the horse in hand before I ever put side reins on. If a horse is already accustomed to bit contact through working in side reins, it is probably easier to get right behind him with a rein on each side. But to me, that's going about things backwards.

[Auventera Two]

My limited experience in long lining and ground driving has meant outside rein behind the quarters. Just so you know which camp I'm in. If a line around the hindquarters freaks a horse out, something got missed in kindergarten. Go back and start again.

Actually, long lining and ground driving is about as kindergarten as you can get!! These are the very basics, before working bitted up in side reins, before riding, before pulling a cart, before pretty much anything excepting grooming, tying, and standing for the farrier.

And good job so far with your pony slc. I've had Libbey about the same amount of time (16 yr old POA, unbroken, pretty much unhandled), and we're just getting the leading down pat. Sheesh. She's a big ox that would rather bull up her chest and run you down than yield to pressure. She's 14 hands of brute force and though a sweetheart, just has no clue about how to act with any type of finesse whatsoever. She is most definitely a slower learner than your guy.

[RidesAHaflinger]

Actually, long lining and ground driving is about as kindergarten as you can get!!

I saw some fellas at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna who might be surprised to hear that.

[hitchinmygetalong]

AT, no one in their right mind would wrap a line around the hindquarters without desensitizing the horse to having all kinds of stuff hanging off him and bouncing against his legs first. THAT is what I was referring to as "kindergarten".

[Auventera Two]

I saw some fellas at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna who might be surprised to hear that.

Schooling the horse in hand through all the Grand Prix movements, including aires, is NOT the same thing as teaching a youngster about bit pressure and steering through the use of long lining or ground driving. The level to which the SRS schools movements in hands is far above what most of us will ever do with our horses in hand. And long lining and ground driving are in fact very basic things to teach a youngster.

What about the pillars? SRS horses are worked in the pillars, which are essentially cross ties. I consider cross tying to be pretty darned basic stuff. So I guess you would also try to say that cross tying is some high school advanced level movement since the SRS stallions work between the pillars? *snort*

[Thomas_1]

I mean no disrespect to anyone posting... I've seen the technique (2 lines over the back) in at least 2 books. One of them I am looking at right now...it is in 101 Longeing & Long Lining Exercises...page 88. It is used for part of the the Shallow Serpentine exercise - one must walk off to the side to make the shalllow bend.

What is so horrible about it?

Its called short hand rein and also sometimes known as short lining and is a technique employed in classical horse training and which I also utilise.

But its not ground driving and its not long reining!