The Chronicle of the Horse
MagazineNewsHorse SportsHorse CareCOTH StoreVoicesThe Chronicle UntackedDirectoriesMarketplaceDates & Results
 
Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 64
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec. 8, 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    149

    Default DSHB classes

    I wasn't sure where to post this.

    This past weekend I showed a 3 yr old colt in a DSHB class. I found it to be a little dissatifiying and hopefully this isn't sour grapes speaking. Before this colt I've never bothered to show in hand before- neither halter nor on the triangle. However, I think this colt is special, and I've been hanging on to him as a stallion prospect. So, I've been doing the DSHB thing to see what other people think of him. Anyway, this was our 2nd show of the year, and he doesn't have a lot of away from home experience. He was nervous, noisy, and fidgety but not horribly ill mannered. The show started with the mares and fillies and then went on to the stallions and colts. While waiting for our class I hung out and watched the show. In the arena, at the triangle apex, was the judge, a scribe, and a big name trainer/handler (I don't know why he was there) and then by the gait was a ring stewart and some other people. The trainer/handler had 2 flunkies handling horses for him in the various classes as he stood in the arena next to the judge telling them what to do. Finally, it's my class. I used a professional handler who handled my boy last year as well as this year. I decided not to run behind the horse with a whip as the result looks more like an arab halter class than a sporthorse class. My colt's walk was tense but the trot was really good especially since nobody was chasing him to get it. I was okay with his performance. Then the next horse went. It's a huge colt, and by colt I mean young stallion. The handler was one of the flunkies belonging to the trainer that had been hanging out with the judge all day. Another flunky was walking behind the horse with a whip. They went to the trot and this horse did 3 strides of "Ooooh I was really meant to be an arab halter horse trot" and then he breaks to a canter. The handler jerked on the horse, he stopped dead reared up, and then took off again at a canter (probably because of the other flunky that was still chasing him with a whip). Then they came to the corner, and the horse had the handler pressed into to the wall. The handler started wacking the horse in the head with the whip. They got out of the corner and the horse then just missed running over the ring steward. Can you guess which horse won?

    I don't think that my horse should have won, and that isn't the point of this post. I don't, however, think the horse that won should have won either.

    First, I don't know why the BNT was in the ring all day. Was he helping in some official capacity, and if so are there rules about his flunkies showing? It seems unfair to stand next to the judge all day and then get to give advice to your help.
    Second, I hear lots of warmblood people speak negatively about arab horses and shows, but what these handlers did with this colt was certainly no better than what they criticize. They pushed this horse past the point where they could control him for 3 strides of trot!
    Thirdly, the judge rewarded this by letting him win. There is a spot on the score sheet that talks about suitability and temperament. I don't think an out of control horse should have scored well enough to win.

    It was very upsetting.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2003
    Location
    Hurdle Mills, NC
    Posts
    4,122

    Default

    Have you gone to any hunter breed shows? You may prefer the judging and procedures there.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep. 10, 2002
    Posts
    212

    Default

    I have to agree with the OP. I've see it all the time. It seems that a lot of the judging is on the appearance of the horse, and less on the suitability for dressage. The more "developed" horses always seem to win, even if their movement and temperament are lacking. Just my experience.

    It was good for you (OP) to get your young colt out and about. That's what I find DSHB shows good for.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2004
    Location
    Houston, Tx
    Posts
    1,028

    Default

    I used to show my horses in these classes in southern california - I don't know if that's where you are - but generally, it was an unsatisfying experience. I thought it was too political. In Colorado, I have been much happier with my results, but it still is frustrating at times, because what we breed for (mature sport horses) doesn't always win as it grows and changes. My best offspring so far was a disaster in terms of confomation as a 1 yr old. I have a filly I have shown as a weanling, and a 1 yr old - this year I'll show her again as a 2 yr old. Instead of thinking of her scores, I have been using these shows as training and a way for me to spend "special" time with her. With that goal, the experience and money has been well worth it. I don't know how we will do this year, and of course hope it will be great (she won as a weanling, and lost consistantly as a 1 yr old)!

    Jill



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 19, 2003
    Location
    Citra, Fl, USA
    Posts
    1,882

    Default

    I am betting that the BNT is going for his/her license and was thier practice judging. However, I don't think you are supposed to do that AND have your own horses compete...but I may be wrong. As a scribe, I too have seen some odd things happen at these shows...but luckly it is not the norm. I have noticed a huge variation in the quality of judges and some really seem to have different taste then others. I think you have to go out there and see it as an experience or a training/exposure to new things for your horse.
    Whispered Wish Weser-Ems: Breeding quality German Riding Ponies!
    Standing the stallion Burberry
    www.germanridingpony.com
    www.facebook.com/HighlifesBurberry



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    MO
    Posts
    4,578

    Default

    In general I find the DSHB shows to be less political than the HB shows. But, I don't do either to win, I simply use them to get my horses used to the show environment. I have found that DSHB judges will look past a lot of bad behavior, simply chalking it up to young horse shenanigans. Often the horse can be a little "out of control" but if it has the big trot it is going to win. The thing I like about DSHB shows is that you can see your scores afterward and you know exactly what the judge liked and didn't like. The score sheets are weighted so that conformation, walk and trot are more important than the general impression, which is where any temperment issue would fall.
    I wouldn't worry about it-I always say it doesn't really matter what they do in-hand; afterall we aren't breeding halter horses, we are (most of us) breeding riding horses and future perforance under saddle is what will matter.
    Good for you for getting your boy out!
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb. 23, 2005
    Location
    Spotsylvania, VA
    Posts
    13,390

    Default Am I the only one

    who finds the term flunky offensive?
    Assistant or associate perhaps?
    I wasn't always a Smurf
    Penmerryl's Sophie RIDSH
    "I ain't as good as I once was but I'm as good once as I ever was"
    The ignore list is my friend. It takes 2 to argue.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar. 12, 2006
    Location
    Western South Dakota
    Posts
    2,482

    Default

    We have been showing in the DHSB classes and have found the Judging, for the most part, to be fair. These classes are about movement and "type" for Dressage, not a "manners" contest.

    We just showed 4 horses at a USDF DSHB show. Two of those were 2 year old fillies, one very mature looking and one very immature. (she's not quite 2) The immature filly won everything and in fact was the Reserve Overall Champion of the whole show, right behind her sire. Their scores were quite close, not surprising as the daughter is a small feminine replica of her sire

    These shows are a GREAT opportunity to get youngsters out and gain valuable experience in the show ring.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 25, 2001
    Location
    Loudoun County, Virginia
    Posts
    837

    Default

    Is this a recognized show that you were at? My horse has shown in quite a few recognize DSHB classes and I can tell you that I've never seen a trainer "hang out and talk to" the judge all day...

    Aside from that, a couple of things you mentioned stuck out to me...I don't think I've ever seen a handler go in and show a horse in one of these classes w/o an assistant (with the exception of perhaps the weanling class)...so I'm not sure what result you were hoping to accomplish by not assisting your handler.....

    I've also never seen a handler "whacking a horse in the face with the whip" in the ring....EVER. I have seen a handler use the "handle" part of the whip to keep the horse straight....

    Like another poster said...these classes aren't a "manner" contest....the judges could really care less about manners...they are interested in conformation and movement. Period. Just go watch Devon some time if you don't believe me.
    Chase's Mom; RIP Dezi 1/99-2/09



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2001
    Location
    Bluegrass, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,360

    Default

    I showed my then young mare in these classes and I found that it wasn't the horse with the best manners or who could trot the most accurate triangle (this is what AA/JrYr Handler is for). They (the judges and the breeders) are quite serious about having the very best in the class, and will give scores accordingly.

    These classes are judged on the potential of the horse as a dressage horse, not the manners, not accuracy, but POTENTIAL. Young horses will act up, and judges will dismiss this or if it gets truly outrageous, dissmiss them.

    Was it wrong to thwack him in the head? I don't know I wasn't there and I most certainly wouldn't like being stuck between a wall and a young stallion in an excitable situation.

    As for the trainer, s/he was probably earning her judge card and it is required that they spend time with the officials in a official capacity. It is perfectly legal for them to show their own horses in this class. Can't cite the rule off the top of my head, but it is legal.
    Kelly
    It is rare to see a rider who is truly passionate about the horse and his training, taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation, and making this extraordinarily subtle work one of the dominant motivations of his life.\"



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct. 3, 2002
    Location
    it's not the edge of the earth, but you can see it from here
    Posts
    12,079

    Default

    I don't think I've ever seen a handler go in and show a horse in one of these classes w/o an assistant
    I've never had a whip person. I handle my own horses. Perhaps that's why we just get Res.Ch. instead of Ch. Mature horse, but knowing the mare who beat us every time, I don't think so.

    That's about the only thing here I can comment on.

    Well, plus, I'd be pretty dissapointed all the way around too, whether or not any of it is justifiable, I can understand your frustration and dissapointment.
    InnisFailte Pinto Sporthorses & Coloured Cobs
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Bits are like cats, what's one more? (Petstorejunkie)



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 28, 2003
    Location
    MO
    Posts
    4,578

    Default

    Wanted to add that I handle my own horses and I don't ever use a whip assistant either. I find that for my horses it just makes them tense and less apt to concentrate on me. My horses move better when relaxed, not tense and hence I don't see the need for a handler. And I've had horses become the show champs, as well, so I don't think it hurts!
    Mostly the other posts are correct-not a manners contest and sometimes it can even get a little scary!
    Courage is going from failure to failure without losing enthusiasm."
    --Winston Churchill
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Hills...h/112931293227
    www.HillsideHRanch.com



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar. 28, 2001
    Location
    Aiken, SC
    Posts
    2,689

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tempichange View Post
    .

    Was it wrong to thwack him in the head? I don't know I wasn't there and I most certainly wouldn't like being stuck between a wall and a young stallion in an excitable situation.

    As for the trainer, s/he was probably earning her judge card and it is required that they spend time with the officials in a official capacity. It is perfectly legal for them to show their own horses in this class. Can't cite the rule off the top of my head, but it is legal.
    The USEF rules state that "any striking of the horse’s head (on the poll and forward of the poll) with the whip shall be deemed excessive." So assuming that the show was USEF recognized a chat with the steward might have been in order. There are always emergencies that are dealt with outside of the rules so if the handler was in danger of being injured it might have been a judgement call.

    Please cite the rule that says a learner judge can judge their own horses.
    Regular judges can't judge their own horses so I'm curious about the logic.
    Although it probably wouldn't make any difference as learner judge scores should not be used in the official results.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec. 8, 2005
    Location
    California
    Posts
    149

    Default

    The show was one of the USDF qualifiers.

    I used the term flunky deliberately because it didn't seem very professional to stand next to the judge and then be able to shout advice. If the BNT didn't interact with them during the show then I would have felt better about calling them associates. Even if there is no rule against it that doesn'tmean there shouldn't be.

    I get that the class is about movement and conformation first. I'm just not sure that with 3 strides of trot that his trot that his was the best.

    As for whacking the horse in the head with the whip... I don't really have a problem with the way the HANDLER (see I didn't say flunky) reacted. If it was a choice between hitting the horse and being squashed I'd have hit the horse too. My point was more that if the horse was out of control enough to need to be whacked upside the head then maybe he should have been penalized more severely.

    As for a whip assisstant, this is my 2nd year doing DSHB classes. I see some people use them and some don't. It's been my observation that when used calmness and control are often sacrificed for brilliance of gait. I don't want to sacrifice those things. My point in mentioning a whip assistant was that this horse didn't need one. In fact his behavior was probably compounded by having somebody chase him with a whip.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2003
    Location
    Hurdle Mills, NC
    Posts
    4,122

    Default

    IMO, one of the biggest problems with the DSHB classes is that the classes often turn out to be not about "movement and conformation first," but "movement-- meaning brilliant trot-- first"-- with the young horses' relaxation, manners, etc., often being tossed out the window in order to produce a few steps of "brilliance." This is why I started showing my young horses in the hunter breed shows instead, and suggested that you might like to consider this alternative way to get your young horse out where he can be seen. I'm sure there are downsides to these shows, too, but at least they don't include any tendency to "get a little scary" as a result of handler-induced explosions from the horses.
    Last edited by fish; Jun. 14, 2007 at 04:19 PM.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug. 23, 2001
    Location
    Bluegrass, Kentucky
    Posts
    1,360

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fish View Post
    IMO, one of the biggest problems with the DSHB classes is that the classes often turn out to be not about "movement and conformation first," but "movement-- meaning brilliant trot-- first"-- with the young horses' relaxation, manners, etc., often being tossed out the window in order to produce a few steps of "brilliance." This is why I started showing my young horses in the hunter breed shows instead, and suggested that you might like to consider this alternative way to get your young horse out where he can be seen. I'm sure there are downsides to these shows, too, but at least they don't include any tendency to "get a little scary" as a result of handler-induced explosions from the horses.
    No, you have to deal with the political beast that is hunters. Personally, I'd rather take them to a DSHB classes, that way you at least get feedback and an honest answer. I'd wait until material to really expect something.
    Kelly
    It is rare to see a rider who is truly passionate about the horse and his training, taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation, and making this extraordinarily subtle work one of the dominant motivations of his life.\"



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,488

    Default

    With the DSHB classes, it may be the horse that shows the fiery brilliance ends up Champion, but you can do VERY well with a nice horse, good conformation, nice elastic walk & trot. I know, as I have been doing it for years. Not a single time has one of my horses been "up" at a show, although not for lack of trying. They are just TOO easy going. They place well because they are a complete package. Someday I would really LOVE to get that big championship, but with the quieter brains I breed, that may just never happen. That is ok, as they have exceeded my dreams inhand, and are wonderful athletic partners under saddle.



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct. 4, 2003
    Location
    Hurdle Mills, NC
    Posts
    4,122

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tempichange View Post
    No, you have to deal with the political beast that is hunters. Personally, I'd rather take them to a DSHB classes, that way you at least get feedback and an honest answer. I'd wait until material to really expect something.
    To each his own. My major concern when I take a baby out is much less about who gets what color ribbon than the kind of experience my horse has, and giving him/her the best possible opportunity to be seen by others behaving quietly and well. The oral feedback I receive from fellow horsepeople at the hunter shows more than compensates for the absence of written remarks by judges and I've generally found the entire atmosphere more congenial-- perhaps because I've not found it difficult to remain oblivious/indifferent to whatever "politics" may be in the air. I remember being taught in Poly Sci that "as soon as you've got two people on a bus, you've got politics," so I've never expected horse shows (even DSHB ones) to be without them.



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2001
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    11,903

    Default

    (pssssst. Ask Ms. FHC how her mare did in class 23.)
    "For God hates utterly
    The bray of bragging tongues."
    Sophocles, Antigone Spoken by the Leader of the Chorus of Theban Elders



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,488

    Default

    Ok, not hot enough for the Championship, but I am perfectly happy with my class win. AND thanks to OM for checking on my sweet girl when my boy had a last minute hot date with the phantom.



Similar Threads

  1. FEI young horse warm-up classes, final classes, or FEI test of choice?
    By Dutch Lovin' Dressage Rider in forum Dressage
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: May. 29, 2012, 08:39 AM
  2. DSHB classes at the Lexington Spring Show
    By Melyni in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: May. 8, 2012, 03:23 PM
  3. DSHB at BCHP 7/31
    By Callaway in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: Jul. 24, 2010, 12:25 PM
  4. Showing open classes vs theraputic classes
    By Cheese183 in forum Equestrians with Disabilities
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: Apr. 13, 2010, 09:47 AM
  5. DSHB help please
    By Iron Horse Farm in forum Sport Horse Breeding
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: Apr. 23, 2009, 10:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
randomness