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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2001
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    Default

    b
    Last edited by Gucci Cowgirl; May. 15, 2007 at 09:50 AM.



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 1999
    Location
    Rosehill, TX
    Posts
    7,060

    Default

    constructive suggestion for you - search on threads for "favorite clinician" and similar terms - see who people think are great instructors - contact any that interest you - if they are available, organize a clinic, inviting all pros in your area
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Sep. 18, 2003
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    4,579

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gucci Cowgirl View Post
    In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.
    You can't. They apparently think they get more out of riding with the BNT than riding with their trainers. Telling them they should sit in the corner (even diplomatically) while "we pros" ride will just make them angry.

    Plus, AA's usually take regular lessons, so wouldnt it be better for their trainer to help them every day on things that the BNT has taught them, rather than one lesson from BNT every 6 weeks?
    Perhaps. But first you need to convince them they'll learn more and make more progress from daily lessons taught by BNT-trained pros than from riding with the BNT themselves. I don't know any other way to do that, other than by being a very good instructor.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 1999
    Location
    Rosehill, TX
    Posts
    7,060

    Default

    "I have alternate options, with even bigger BNT's."

    - why not invite the local pros to ride in your clinic with the 'even bigger BNT'?
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jul. 17, 2000
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    973

    Default

    Have you talked to the clinic organizer?



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2003
    Location
    Southern New Jersey
    Posts
    129

    Default

    Why not offer one of the AA a series of lessons with you at a steeply discounted rate. In exchange, you take their spot in the BNT clinic. That way, you get to ride with the BNT and they get lots of regular, quality, inexpensive training.
    ----------------------------
    \"You can observe a lot by watching.\" -Yogi Berra

    http://community.webshots.com/user/cadeau_flambe



  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2007
    Posts
    31

    Default

    I think in many areas of life, a "train the trainer" approach works well.

    However, riding and teaching are two separate skill sets so I am not comprehending how there's any guarantee that if the pros get in to ride with this BNT (at the expense of an equal number of loyal AAs giving up their spots) that these AAs are going to benefit from improved teaching. Maybe, maybe not... but not a slam dunk. The pros' riding is likely to improve, but again I'm not seeing a guaranteed big-picture payoff to the scenario.

    I'm also interested in how the OP knows with certainty what the motivations of all these AAs are for tenaciously hanging on to their clinic spots. I'd think that one or two rides with him/her would be enough to establish The Prestige Factor, but if they're that loyal then there must be something more to it?



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jun. 13, 2001
    Location
    usa
    Posts
    6,128

    Default

    Have you personally talked with the bnt about an extra day? Most would rather work with more experienced riders.
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2005
    Location
    maryland
    Posts
    5,219

    Default

    Approach the clinic organizer. And with their permission, you can also approach the BNT.

    Suggestion: add a 2nd day to the clinic, one for amateurs and one for pros. BNT gets double the clients. You get a full day of watching pros. The only issue is that it's ALOT of work to get people to come to a clinic, and if you want a change you should be doing the extra work. Can you assure clinic organizer that you have enough pro trainer associates will will definitely attend?

    You may find that there just aren't enough pros who have the time, money, & interest to fill a whole day's timeslots. In the end the AA's may be doing you a favor because their participation ensures the BNT will come regularly.



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Aug. 1, 2002
    Location
    Midwesterner in Yankeeland
    Posts
    1,623

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gucci Cowgirl View Post
    The BNT has said, specifically, that her time would be MUCH better spent teaching the pros. but it is not her decision who is in the clinics (said again)
    So if

    1. The pros want to train with this specific BNT and
    2. The BNT would rather train the pros than the amateurs and
    3. These is the only possible dates on which the BNT will be available

    have you talked with the BNT about

    3. Ending the contract with the farm currently hosting the clinics and starting a new contract with the pros?

    If, as you say, she really wants to teach the pros that badly and if, as you say, there are enough committed pros to make it worth her while, then she would presumably be happy to make it happen...no?

    (I do think this would be a lousy thing to do to the farm that's currently hosting and to the riders there, and I wonder how you know that the ammies are interested in prestige rather than education. Have they said this? Or is it just your guess?)



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Mar. 15, 2007
    Location
    (throw dart at map) NC!
    Posts
    4,987

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gucci Cowgirl View Post
    4th time now, this BNT has NO EXTRA TIME!!

    In my original post, I asked for opinions on how to help the AA's understand that while we love the fact that they are dedicated to their riding, it is more beneficial for us as their trainers to clinic with the BNT, and then we can apply whatever it is that they need, to their daily lessons.

    Plus, AA's usually take regular lessons, so wouldnt it be better for their trainer to help them every day on things that the BNT has taught them, rather than one lesson from BNT every 6 weeks?
    To me it sounds as if there is more to this story than meets the eye. It sounds like this is someone else's long-standing clinic that is filled with their students and other AAs who move heaven and earth to show up each time in order to keep their slot. It also sounds like the BNT might rather teach professionals but at the end of the day remains perfectly happy walking out the door with a large check from AAs. Plus, BNT may secretly enjoy watching AAs develop and may feel some obligation to keep supporting the clinic organizer - if he/she didn't, he/she wouldn't come back anymore. If BNT can't squeeze in another day for professionals, then this BNT isn't THAT committed to working with the professionals in your area. Of course, if BNT is really a *B*NT, then they probably get this complaint everywhere they go.

    At our barn, the owner's horses have priority and then boarders/clients get first crack at our regular BNTs. Outside professionals can only get in if there are open slots - that's just how it is.

    It sounds like you want "in" on someone else's clinic but are unhappy that you can't get in so you want to convince the regular clientele to "go away" and open up spaces. You can't "take over" someone else's clinic, you can't tell then how to fill it (although you can ask politely for a slot each time), and you can't interfere with what sounds like a long-term relationship between BNT and clinic organizer. This would make YOU look bad locally. Lastly, it is unprofessional for any BNT (or LNT) to drop steady clients in favor of another group.

    If you can't get into this clinic and BNT won't give you an extra day (YES I KNOW you already asked and they said no), then find another BNT. It's your only option. I have no doubt that if you have a goup of professionals on hand with $$, you can find another good BNT to come give a clinic.

    J.



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Oct. 31, 2000
    Location
    Richmond, TX USA
    Posts
    478

    Default I'm just not gettin' it!

    You're saying that this BNT comes every month, and, we're assuming makes a living in large part from teaching/giving clinics, and is completely booked for every other possible training day for the entire year? Of is it that BNT is booked on the only days you want him/her? I'm having difficulty understanding that there is just no possibility of organizing a different time/date/place for this person to come, assuming you can assure him/her that you can fill all clinic spots. May take a while to get on the calendar, but if the demand is as high as you infer, I don't see why this person wouldn't try to work with you.

    I just have to believe that if approached from a very positive, flexible vantage point that this BNT wouldn't want to work something out with you - even if you have to begin by starting with a date for next year.

    SD



  13. #53
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
    Location
    NJ
    Posts
    748

    Default

    Ok- who cares about scheduling another day. Clearly the OP is saying that isn't an option. The problem is not the amount of time that the BNT has (well, maybe, but not really). The problem is in organization.
    OP said something about the clinic being supposed public. Well clearly it is not or something is going on where people cannot get on the list. That's not going to change by talking to the AAs about the importance of the pro's getting a chance to ride in the clinic. Talk to the organizer. Ask if they can/want/are interested in having a session with pro's riding in it. Otherwise- hate to say it, but you're SOL. Go find a different BNT to get out there and organize your own clinic.



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Jan. 16, 2003
    Posts
    2,255

    Default

    Perhaps this does not apply in this case, but I know of more than a handful of BIG BIG NAME Trainers who would rather teach AA low level riders, because pros or advanced riders tend to think they know everything already, they have lots of excuses why they do it their way, they bring all their friends or students and just want to show off and then brag they rode with this BNT (drop the name all the time), they are smug and elitist and superior and look down their noses at AA lower level riders on their grade horses. Eventually, most older BBNT want to develop a list of advanced riders on great horses doing well in the showring for their own legacy as a trainer. But honestly, the $ is the same no matter where it comes from, and many many many clinicians are going thru the motions for the money anyhow.

    To OP, regarding your BNT, honestly, she has the last word on who she teaches. If she wants a clinic full of made dressage folk, and there is enough to fill all the slots, she is well within her rights to pick up that clinic and drop the low level one. She'd burn a bridge and hurt lots of feelings, but lots of trainers couldn't care less



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Aug. 29, 2005
    Posts
    330

    Smile

    As an AA......

    I can say generalizations about Professionals work in the same way as sweeping generalizations about AA's.

    For example......In my area (Western PA) I can tell you that it's really really hard to find a local trainer who is as intuitive and as good of a teacher as the International BNT who comes in for a clinic stint every 6-8 weeks. He is so much better actually that I dropped my regular trainer to afford to ride w/him and work w/a ground person and a video camera in between time. My skill level took a big jump.

    THE ONLY WAY that I would have given up my spot in w/him would be if a local trainer came along....and proved to me that they could teach as well as him.

    Sorry to say it......as an AA who is serious about dressage.....I deserve my chance as much as you.

    Of course your not in my area and I'm not in yours!



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Apr. 7, 2006
    Location
    KS, USA
    Posts
    589

    Default

    Really, what's in it for the AAs if they give up their slots? You're suggesting that they could just pick up the knowledge from the local trainers, after the local trainers have absorbed it from the BNT. But there's no guarantee someone who's a local trainer will be able to transmit that knowledge; or that the AAs feel comfortable training with any given local trainer. Perhaps they feel the BNT is going to give them more correct basics than the local trainer! And considering the state of dressage education over much of the US, they're likely to be right.

    Maybe you need to be satisfied with the 'even bigger BNGs' that you already study with. I looked on your website and the two you list are plenty good!

    The AAs are informed consumers and they're making the choices they feel are the best for their riding. Everyone needs to do this for themselves, in the town and situation they find themseves in.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 1999
    Location
    Rosehill, TX
    Posts
    7,060

    Default

    feisomeday wrote "Perhaps this does not apply in this case, but I know of more than a handful of BIG BIG NAME Trainers who would rather teach AA low level riders, because pros or advanced riders tend to think they know everything already, they have lots of excuses why they do it their way, they bring all their friends or students and just want to show off and then brag they rode with this BNT (drop the name all the time), they are smug and elitist and superior and look down their noses at AA lower level riders on their grade horses. "

    sad but true - even saw this happen (pro rider not acting on instruction given) at a national USDF Symposium

    (pro didn't seem to realize that she made herself look like an a** in the process)

    not saying this is what's happening with Gucci - but surely if the BNT wanted to teach the pros then the BNT would get the organizer to include more of them - say add two so that it would be half AA/half pro
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2001
    Posts
    3,962

    Default

    b
    Last edited by Gucci Cowgirl; May. 15, 2007 at 09:51 AM.



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Nov. 5, 2001
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    Default

    b
    Last edited by Gucci Cowgirl; May. 15, 2007 at 09:51 AM.



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2006
    Posts
    400

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by SGray View Post
    organize a clinic, inviting all pros in your area
    Agreed. If you don't like how someone else does it, do it yourself. If you set up a clinic, get your "even bigger BNT", and let your local pros ride, the "community" will still benefit. That ought to more than make up for the other BNT that teaches AAs and not Pros.

    And as for the original BNT that would rather teach Pros, if that's so-- he/she would do it. They'd say, "I really want to teach so and so instead of this person, and if that can't happen, I'll have to go to Gucci's clinic every other month." Trainers drop students all the time. It's not right, but it happens. I think anyone that really wants to learn and tries their best deserves to, and if someone else learns by watching, that's just gravy.

    And I use Cheer.



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