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  1. #1

    Default American Bred

    I don't want to start controversy but I have been interested in understanding this concept....

    Does breeding a european bred mare (all parents from europe) to a european stallion (the new age of frozen semen) in the United States, constitute American breeding?

    We strive for American bred and the prestige when our horses are noticed overseas but are we really breeding American bred horses or just "european" horses on American soil.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan. 21, 2003
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    Charles Town, WV
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    6,637

    Default

    IMHO, the breeder, and therefore the country of breeding, is the one who makes the breeding decision, regardless of the breed or country of origin of the horse. So, if an American breeds 2 European born horses, and the American was the one making the breeding decision, then s/he is the breeder and the resulting foal is bred by an American.
    Tranquility Farm - Proud breeder of Born in the USA Sport Horses, and Cob-sized Warmbloods
    Now apparently completely invisible!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb. 7, 2002
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    Ontario, Canada
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    804

    Default

    If someone from Holland purchases & imports a Begium Warmblood registered mare and breeds that mare to a Holsteiner stallion standing in Germany, you can bet your booties that the foal will be registered KWPN and called a Dutch Warmblood.

    I register all my foals Canadian Warmblood, regardless of where their parents originated. It is much the same as human citizenship - my parents may both be from Europe, but my birth certificate says that I am Canadian.
    Sentinel Hill Farm
    Visit us online!



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
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    14,496

    Default

    I believe that all horses bred in America are American bred. My Hanoverian stallion's sire and dam were both imported from Germany, but I chose the match, the mare was here when bred, so he is an American bred horse.

    I am VERY proud to have bred both of my stallions, and one of their moms. In 2005, they each had a 4th place foal (colt & filly) in the open classes at Dressage at Devon. It is rare for any American bred stallion to sire a youngster that places at Devon, so that to me is especially thrilling.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug. 2, 2005
    Location
    Oxford, USA
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    Default

    My husband handled our homebred mare Able Spirit to the Res. Ch. at Dressage at Devon. Her sire Abundance came to the US as a weanling in 1965, twenty years before US stallion testing and ten years before the AHS began. All of his foals are American, because they were conceived and born here.
    Anne
    -------
    "Where knowledge ends violence begins." B. Ljundquist



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2003
    Location
    Wilton, NH USA
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    134

    Default

    Someone answer me this question --- why is it so important to so many posting on this board to stamp the label "American" on their horses?

    Should we start calling our German shepherds American shepherds?

    If a horse has parents of Dutch lineage, why not call it Dutch? Is that a bad thing?

    I just don't understand this pointless argument.............



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov. 12, 2006
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    North East
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    1,703

    Default

    maybe we could have some classes like dog shows do called bred by exhibitor in the in hand section and or american bred class for warmbloods best bred in american class something like that to showcase our horses we are breeding here



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
    Location
    PA
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    3,246

    Default

    I am having trouble getting the correct quotes to come up, so bear with me...

    Why is it so important to some people to label their horses 'American'?
    For me, it acknowledges that the horse was born and bred here in the US. Ours are of European descent, but I live in PA, not Hannover or Oldenburg, so why label them as such? It is a _choice_ to go with any registry with your breeding stock.

    Just like someone who is breeding Dutch/OLD/Han horses, it is a matter of identity and aligning yourself with a specific group and their standard. In Europe it is a geographic boundary that makes these decisions vs. over here it is a personal choice. I think the turmoil starts when one group of breeders (or one breeder) decides that they are 'better than _____'. That inevitably starts a war... Why you say? Because it is attacking something that is very personal to an individual. Given that there are X number of horses born every year and with supply and demand determining the market...you can imagine that there is a fair amount of competition. Money, politics and love of the beast itself can make some people a tad irrational at times. (and I include myself in that last bit)

    If a horse has parents of Dutch lineage, why not call it Dutch? Is that a bad thing?
    Not a bad thing at all. Just a choice to do so.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
    Location
    FL
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    8,275

    Default

    Tasker,

    Your entire post is so very well said. I agree totally. I applaud anyone and everyone here who is a serious and responsible breeder. I honor their choices and also honor the dedication and their passion.

    To answer the OP, I have some imported mares and have bred to many imported stallions and even to foreign stallions using frozen semen. My homebreds are American bred, in that they were born here in the USA (which is also the name of a great awards series that honors breeders). However I choose to register them with the American Hanoverian Society. That choice is my personal decision. Many other options are available for horses bred exactly the same way.

    Different strokes for different folks. I respect those who choose to do otherwise and only ask for a teensy bit of the same back.



  10. #10
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    PA
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    Default

    Thanks HAF! The respect thing is a two way street for all of us! We are all in this together...



  11. #11
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    FL
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tasker View Post
    Thanks HAF! The respect thing is a two way street for all of us! We are all in this together...



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul. 10, 2002
    Location
    TX/NY/PA
    Posts
    187

    Default

    IMHO -

    - If a horse is conceived in America, it is American-bred. (Loved the Canadian-with-foreign-parents analogy!!)

    - If a horse is bred in america it's lovely to see it recognized as American-bred. Why? Because there is an overwhelming belief that you have to go to europe to get a good WB. And the only way to get past that myth is to make sure people know about good horses that are bred on this side of the pond.

    - Being "american bred" has nothing whatsoever to do with the horse's registry. You can have american bred Oldenburgs, Dutch, Hannoverians, etc. (and american-bred german shepards!!)

    So maybe "carnivalhill" can clarify what the question is. When asking about why it's important to "stamp the label American" on a horse, are you asking about people wanting breed registries with the word "american" in them, or are you asking why it's important to recognize where good horses are actually bred?



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan. 29, 2000
    Location
    Brownsburg, VA
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    2,947

    Default

    Beautifully said, Tasker and HAF. I feel I just got a hug from each of you and I’m not even participating in this thread.

    I respect both of your programs and your accomplishments.

    I think I’ll print this out and post it on my monitor to read the next time I feel cyber-attacked because of the registry choice I’ve made. At the moment, I’m breeding Virgini-Han Snow Loons.

    Thanks again to both of you.

    (I’m staring out my office window at one of the broodies, a two year old and this year’s one weanling. They are having a blast in the snow – galloping along. Though the older two are really tiring out the baby, He’s cantering after them, calling out that he’s TIRED – please slow down!)



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
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    PA
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    Smile

    *sniff sniff* I feel the big cyber-hug too!

    AHF - I just tottered out to catch the last of the horse and do a top off of the buckets (with another round a 7pm) and was watching the pregnant girls...they are fat, wooly and happy but I have a cheesy grin on my face thinking about what they are carrying! The wondering - is it a colt? a filly? will it be something OTHER than a chestnut? how much of mom will come through this time? All of the questions tumble through my mind, and I would imagine it is the same for everyone else...That is what makes it worthwhile IMHO.

    (now when one of the little beggars steps on me in a few months and squishes a toe, remind me that I was full of hope, joy & anticipation at one point, will ya?)



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2002
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    FL
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    Default

    AHF - I just tottered out to catch the last of the horse and do a top off of the buckets (with another round a 7pm) and was watching the pregnant girls...they are fat, wooly and happy but I have a cheesy grin on my face thinking about what they are carrying! The wondering - is it a colt? a filly? will it be something OTHER than a chestnut? how much of mom will come through this time? All of the questions tumble through my mind, and I would imagine it is the same for everyone else...That is what makes it worthwhile IMHO.
    I am about to go out and feed the ladies dinner. Only two are preggy this year, but they have just gotten to the stage where I can see movement, especially after they have eaten. I live for those moments in the long, long wait from breeding to foaling.

    Isn't it crazy what makes our hearts sing?



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2003
    Location
    Wilton, NH USA
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    134

    Default

    Personal choice and respect --- those are two concepts you don't see expressed too often on this board! Maybe we all need to learn to play nice!

    I have Dutch warmbloods, some imported, some bred here, all by "foreign stallions". MY choice will always be to register them Dutch. I like the Dutch system, I like Dutch horses, I'm proud of what I have in my barn. Should I apologize for that? No way! No more than anyone else should apologize for their choices.

    Should I try to convert everyone to "go Dutch"? Of course not, anymore than I should feel shame for not supporting an American registry. I have that choice, and I've decided not to go that route.

    For me, there is no need to re-invent the wheel. Those breeders in Holland seem to know what they're doing. Why not just learn from them? I am not in competition with Holland for Pete's sake.

    A lot of people think that there is some huge sucking noise being made by the money going over to Europe. But realistically, there is only a select percentage of people who can afford to go shopping there. There is still a market for horses here. It is silly to fantasize that the day will come when no-one will stray across the pond to buy a horse --- that everyone will WANT to buy a horse here. People will ALWAYS go over there, and that is an incontrovertable truth. Even if every Grand Prix horse on the continent was registered AWR tomorrow, that would not change.

    We inherently want the best, it's part of our culture, and "the best" is a very personal and subjective beast. For some, the best will only be imported. That's why a lot of us dream of driving Mercedes and Rolls Royces, not a Ford Pinto. (Not that Ford Pintos are bad, except for the exploding part) You can buy a pair of socks at Neiman Marcus and get the same thing at Wal-Mart, but they won't be as nice. That kind of perception is just ingrained. Why fight it?

    If as breeders, we do our homework and produce great horses, eventually the product will speak for itself. I think everyone in the US horse community knows that Judgment came from Iron Spring Farm. You can bet everyone in Holland knows where he comes from too.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct. 29, 1999
    Posts
    14,496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by carnivalhill View Post
    Personal choice and respect --- those are two concepts you don't see expressed too often on this board! Maybe we all need to learn to play nice!

    We inherently want the best, it's part of our culture, and "the best" is a very personal and subjective beast. For some, the best will only be imported. That's why a lot of us dream of driving Mercedes and Rolls Royces, not a Ford Pinto. (Not that Ford Pintos are bad, except for the exploding part)
    THAT was nice and respectful of American choices!

    You can keep your Mercedes, I'll take a Dodge!
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  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun. 24, 2005
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    PA
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    Talking

    Now if we are going to talk cars...

    I'll take a 3500 Duramax Diesel with the Allison tranny, 4 wheel drive, with XM, crew cab, dually, big mirrors, and heavy duty everything in Navy Blue, please. Oh and it would be handy if someone else would pay for it, too!

    (I'm a farm girl, what can I say?????)



  19. #19
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    Jul. 5, 2002
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    FL
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    Default

    I am an equal opportunity gal. I haul the rig with a Ford 350 diesel, but drive a Volvo for the groceries. Of course, Volvo is owned by Ford these days, so I guess I drive all American. Does that make me a good person?



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Nov. 14, 2004
    Location
    Fleetwood, PA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tasker View Post
    Now if we are going to talk cars...

    I'll take a 3500 Duramax Diesel with the Allison tranny, 4 wheel drive, with XM, crew cab, dually, big mirrors, and heavy duty everything in Navy Blue, please. Oh and it would be handy if someone else would pay for it, too!

    (I'm a farm girl, what can I say?????)

    Well I am a farm girl too (also living in PA). And I will take everything you like in your TRUCK, excluding the dually, and replacing with their pewter color!!

    The majority of people here breed lovely horses that they should be proud of. But certainly, choice of registry has many aspects, some due to history that some people experienced, others due to type and style of the registry. To each his own and let us all breed beautiful, athletic horses!



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