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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Alice View Post

    RE: the beautiful FEI Schoolmaster and the "3rd" Level rider... the fact that this was 'way too much horse for her, and that she was not a 3rd level rider was not lost on the clinician. The horse wasn't in misery... he also wasn't through, connected and working very hard, that's for sure... he knows he doesn't have to. I tried to put myself in her shoes... how would I feel if I had a horse like that and couldn't make him look the way he's supposed to look? She has a lot of pressure to live up to. She loves him and is doing the best she can. Frankly, I'm not going to get too upset over the fact that she doesn't ride him as a 3rd Level rider.

    RE: the trainer making her horse go forward and almost running the clinician over... all I will say is that this horse has issues and the owner is very upset and sad about them. This past summer, the horse was doing beautiful 3rd Level work, and now is not. She is frustrated and therefore perhaps isn't as patient as she might otherwise be. None of us likes to be in that position, but I'll bet many of us can relate, whether it's with horses, children, pets, relatives, etc. The following day the clinician rode the horse for 15 minutes, got off, and said, "Give her a long break... a long time off of work." Please don't tell me that this clinician has any hesitation to do what he feels is in the best interest of the horse.
    I snipped this for brevity.

    Speedy, I am glad that it sounds like most people at your clinic were there for the right reasons and had a good experience, and that their horses did, too.

    As far as the two people you refer to above, I hope someone has taken them aside and told them to grow up and get over themselves. Horses are the ultimate humblers, they don't care who you are or what you've done or what work they were doing last summer or in their life before you got them. It sounds to me like they are having a very hard time eating their pie. Everyone gets dished the same pie at one point or another, it's true.. but how you handle it makes or breaks you and your horse. I for one am glad that I was told to eat my pie (by my horses and my instructors!) when I was not necessarily hungry!



  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    Seriously, you and your cliquish cohorts can take your comments and stick them back in the deep, dark holes they came out of.
    What a fine lady! I am sure you already know this, but in Spanish Elegante is a strong word, to refere to someone that not only is elegant but that has class. You should change your screename, because you are everything but Elegante.

    If someone doesn't agree wit you, let's offend them and insult them. What a way of doing things!!!!



  3. #63
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    Yes, muy elegante!

    The mask fell...



  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantis View Post
    The seat is not the only aid.

    The leg is also a totally legitimate proper aid. The leg aid is further refined by correct tactful use of the spur.

    Some of these posts border on absurd. What's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?

    It is easy to be judgemental and holier-than-thou, when one has not had the actual experience to realize how idealized some of their theories are.
    Atlantis -- Seat (fine adjustments of weight including repositioning or stilling any part of the body) and leg are legitimate, and I'd have to say the original aids (which we know would have included voice and sound cues).

    As to "what's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?" that is exactly what I meant when I wrote if a horse can perform a movement in a snaffle, why wear a double. Of course in the best of worlds we could perform these movements without any gear at all. The concept shouldn't blow anyone's mind. Make the stretch. What else are we reaching for but the absolute minimum between ourselves and our mounts??

    Of course we should strive to be at such a level of harmony with our horses that extra tools are not necessary to acheive results. Who would disagree? If you would, why?

    To AllWeatherGal - when I sold my last horse as a five year old, we were doing two tempis up the center line with rhythm and pleasantness, a slight shift of weight and lift of rein being the only cue. We were working well at extension and beginning to work on some collection. I am not a person who rushes anything and thought him progressing well.

    Piper then became a hunter who took reserves and champions in our humble provincial shows and then did well in Quebec on the A circuit the year following his sale (so I was told by his new owner).

    The only reason I sold him was that I became ill and needed a kidney transplant - boo hoo for me, life can suck. I'm not saying this for any reason other than to explain why I haven't currently got a horse that P&Ps. I got over my illness somewhat, got a kidney, and after 6 years not in a saddle, got my current baby. I am lucky to have sat on his back at this stage, we are at this time long-reining and lunging. He has a history of a pmu life that included non-handling and near starvation. He is coming along. No rush. I am patient and self-preservation is my prime concern at my age and state.

    For the record I have never worn a spur in my life. Why? Because with the horses I was blessed with, I didn't need a spur. Why wear what I don't need...

    I did on occasion use a crop on days where my partners and I were not of a single mind, the days were crisp, the deer plentiful and friskiness abounded beyond a reasonable period. Perhaps not everyone is as lucky to ride animals such as I did, or, simply not as patient or observant during their horse's education.

    Finally as to the clinic that began this thread, I will haul in both my praises and horns with some apology. I did not see it. But the descriptions have been interesting!!



  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    Speedy - seems we attended different clinics because I was not the only one who thought the spurs shouldn't have been on such busy legs.
    You opened your post with "worst spur abuse I've seen in ages," stating that a trainer there had all of her students in roweled spurs and implying that they were raking the horses' sides and ramming their heels in. "Busy legs" isn't the same thing. Your statements started a landslide of comments RE: clinicians who allow such "abuse", who are afraid to say anything for fear of not making $$, etc. etc. The implication that this clinician would ignore such "abuse" is absurd and an insult to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    I've also read your comments on another board about this clinic and was surprised that you included a description, a poor one I might add, of the person who chased her horse around the arena for her session.
    Show me this "poor description." I've written no description - poor or otherwise - on another board about the person you claim "chased her horse around". You are not impressing me with the accuracy of your powers of observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    I have nothing against the trainer/barn owner as I've know her for a bit and think she is a very nice person.
    Oh yes, that was quite evident from your comments about her and her students. <cough>

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    Btw, you also failed to read that I wasn't slamming the clinic but posting questions about spurs and riding a school master.
    No, you weren't. Otherwise, your "questions" wouldn't have contained the literary locutions that ignited such an outcry against an obviously clueless clinician. I'd do the rolling eyeball thingy here, but I don't know how.

    And your "my final complaint about the clinic" comment about the schedule listing "most of the riders" at 2nd Level or above when it wasn't true - yeah, that didn't come across as slamming, either. Your comment in the Harald Bauer thread - same implication.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    And if the bereiter didn't comment on it then it just says more about his lack of teaching skills.
    This is funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    Oh and you also failed to notice that I mentioned I had only witnessed one day of the clinic so could not fully comment on the bereiter's skills as a coach.
    I noticed. I noticed it didn't stop you from drawing all kinds of erroneous conclusions, either.

    Your comments about how he was young and his English wasn't very good... you're right, you didn't "fully" comment. You simply rattled off a string of sentences that made it seem as if he was inept, not able to express himself, etc. As I said, it's an insult to him. I find it interesting that you (and apparently your friend) are the only people I've heard from - and I have had a lot of evaluations turned in - who said his English wasn't very good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elegante E View Post
    Seriously, you and your cliquish cohorts can take your comments and stick them back in the deep, dark holes they came out of.
    You're joking, right? "...cliquish cohorts..." With whom am I cohorting, again? "...deep, dark holes..."? Nice. I would have guessed you were in high school, except that I know better.

    What a bitter person you must be. I understand your disappointment of not progressing more than you have, but the propensity to play the expert and act as if you know more than someone who's been at the SRS for 13 years is laughable, not to mention that the way that you did it is downright rude.

    Hmmm, let's see... should I put more weight on what you think you saw, or what the SRS Bereiter saw? Tough choice.
    Last edited by Speedy Alice; Jan. 15, 2007 at 09:28 PM. Reason: oops, typo



  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I snipped this for brevity.

    Speedy, I am glad that it sounds like most people at your clinic were there for the right reasons and had a good experience, and that their horses did, too.

    As far as the two people you refer to above, I hope someone has taken them aside and told them to grow up and get over themselves. Horses are the ultimate humblers, they don't care who you are or what you've done or what work they were doing last summer or in their life before you got them. It sounds to me like they are having a very hard time eating their pie. Everyone gets dished the same pie at one point or another, it's true.. but how you handle it makes or breaks you and your horse. I for one am glad that I was told to eat my pie (by my horses and my instructors!) when I was not necessarily hungry!
    I understand what you're saying. RE: the person whom the Bereiter told to give her horse a long vacation - she said to me today in an email that nothing beautiful happens through force, and that beauty occurs when gifts are given freely between two spirits with the same goal. Really - I don't think she needs to be told to grow up and get over herself! She's had a tough time with this mare, had major disappointments, and is trying to figure it out and do the best she can. She was looking forward to this clinic to help her figure out what her horse was trying to tell her, and when the Bereiter said, "time off", she didn't hesitate or demur.

    I don't think this thread did a particularly accurate job of portraying the riders in this clinic.



  7. #67
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    As to "what's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?" that is exactly what I meant when I wrote if a horse can perform a movement in a snaffle, why wear a double. Of course in the best of worlds we could perform these movements without any gear at all.
    Well, this is a pretty fantasy at least.

    However, as a trainer of GP horses, I can assure it is not very realistic. That was my point, was to point out how unrealistic some of the dreamy posts on this thread have been.



  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy Alice View Post
    What a bitter person you must be. I understand your disappointment of not progressing more than you have, but the propensity to play the expert and act as if you know more than someone who's been at the SRS for 13 years is laughable, not to mention that the way that you did it is downright rude.



  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atlantis View Post
    The seat is not the only aid.

    The leg is also a totally legitimate proper aid. The leg aid is further refined by correct tactful use of the spur.

    Some of these posts border on absurd. What's next, if the horse is listening well enough to the seat, no reins? no bridle? no saddle?

    It is easy to be judgemental and holier-than-thou, when one has not had the actual experience to realize how idealized some of their theories are.
    Just a side note, referring to the comment on using the least aids possible.
    Ever seen Freddie Knie ride correct higer level dressage movements without a saddle, bridle, whip/spurs, or anything whatsoever?

    In the same vein, if another discipline:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag

    She also had another freestyle ride without anything, not even the saddle.
    We can train horses any way we want, shows are standarized ways of measuring certain ways of training.

    I don't know about today's SRS bereiters, but the ones many years ago were something to see, very accurate and correct, in the old tradition.



  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Just a side note, referring to the comment on using the least aids possible.
    Ever seen Freddie Knie ride correct higer level dressage movements without a saddle, bridle, whip/spurs, or anything whatsoever?

    In the same vein, if another discipline:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag

    She also had another freestyle ride without anything, not even the saddle.
    We can train horses any way we want, shows are standarized ways of measuring certain ways of training.

    I don't know about today's SRS bereiters, but the ones many years ago were something to see, very accurate and correct, in the old tradition.
    i would LOVE to see that dressage ride if you happen to know where there is a video of it. I am so incredibly impressed with the reiner's video and can only hope that one day i will come close to emulating her.

    Erm, runing away from the rest of this discussion though....sounds....fiesty.



  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post
    Just a side note, referring to the comment on using the least aids possible.
    Ever seen Freddie Knie ride correct higer level dressage movements without a saddle, bridle, whip/spurs, or anything whatsoever?

    In the same vein, if another discipline:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag
    The video is interesting from the point of view of a middle act show, but has no relation to our conversation. To start making the horse back-up half the arena is not a nice sight, poor horse. Second, those slides must hurt the hell of the horses back legs and third, did you noticed the size of the spurs of the rider and the kicking act to make that horse back-up?



  12. #72
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    ---"The video is interesting from the point of view of a middle act show, but has no relation to our conversation. To start making the horse back-up half the arena is not a nice sight, poor horse. Second, those slides must hurt the hell of the horses back legs and third, did you noticed the size of the spurs of the rider and the kicking act to make that horse back-up?"---

    We need to understand that other disciplines are different, not inherently "wrong".
    She uses her legs in a different way than a dressage rider would think of using, of course, but don't be offended, she is not "spurring", her horses don't have any marks on them.
    My post was not to say what is better or even adequate, but responding, properly, I think, to the remark of using different or even practically no aids to direct a horse.
    Sorry it offended you.

    Freddie Knie would cross his arms and do a whole series of Grand Prix routines, bareback. Impressive.
    I don't know if there are some movies of that.



  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by P.R.E. View Post
    The video is interesting from the point of view of a middle act show, but has no relation to our conversation. To start making the horse back-up half the arena is not a nice sight, poor horse. Second, those slides must hurt the hell of the horses back legs and third, did you noticed the size of the spurs of the rider and the kicking act to make that horse back-up?
    why is it cruelty to perform a sliding stop? many people would consider a piaffe or a passage cruelty and it would be to a horse that is not properly prepared and conditioned for it. same with them. this is going along the same thread as criticizing that which you don't understand. Learn about it before insulting it. This is not cruelty. And why is this middle-act simply because it is western????? Stacy Westfall is famous. She rides bridless AND saddless. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnZ6j...elated&search= look at this horse lick his lips in the middle. how can that be construed as cruel riding? spurs are an aid for refinement in western same as english. guarantee you she is NOT abusing her horse.

    the poster was making a great point that tack should not be our only influence over the horse. Yes, it has its place and is very important (duh) but to say that learning to ride in minimalist tack is wrong....that is just not right. yes there are problem horses. but that doesn't mean that can't be a goal to work towards, few have the finished product right away. just don't get hasty or satisfied with an unfinished product. If you CAN improve on it, DO so!



  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abberlaze View Post
    why is it cruelty to perform a sliding stop? many people would consider a piaffe or a passage cruelty and it would be to a horse that is not properly prepared and conditioned for it. same with them. this is going along the same thread as criticizing that which you don't understand. Learn about it before insulting it. This is not cruelty. And why is this middle-act simply because it is western????? Stacy Westfall is famous. She rides bridless AND saddless. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnZ6j...elated&search= look at this horse lick his lips in the middle. how can that be construed as cruel riding? spurs are an aid for refinement in western same as english. guarantee you she is NOT abusing her horse.

    the poster was making a great point that tack should not be our only influence over the horse. Yes, it has its place and is very important (duh) but to say that learning to ride in minimalist tack is wrong....that is just not right. yes there are problem horses. but that doesn't mean that can't be a goal to work towards, few have the finished product right away. just don't get hasty or satisfied with an unfinished product. If you CAN improve on it, DO so!
    I am going to assume (maybe I am wrong) that you are a very young person, given you very emotional and aggressive response, specially regarding subjects that only exist in your mind and that i never said.
    Take a breath, read my post again and let's have a conversation.

    First, I never used the word "cruelty";
    Second, please show me who did I insulted (before we continue our conversation, please answer this question)?;
    Third, what makes you think that I am not familiar with reining? having an opinion different than other people, doesn't make me an ingnorant;
    Four, from my point of view, is a middle act show, I don't care if it's western, or gaucho riding, is only my opinion.
    Five, again "cruel riding", where did i said that?
    Six, spurs are an aid for refinement, yes, if you would have read my posts, you would have found that I have said exactly the same. Read the posts, before rushing in to the discussion looking for a fight. Never the less, my point is that through the thread, example of refinement, have been done, making as a goal being able to ride with out spurs or even without a briddle. My comment regarding the spurs, goes in context with the discussion through this thread. This particular rider, yes is riding with out a briddle, but in order to keep control over the horse, she is still wearing spurs, so is not the best example of refinement.

    To finish, I never said that the slides constitute crueltu, but in my opinion, they must be really hard on the hind legs of the horse. This is my opinion and the last time a checked, we live in the USA and I am entitled to that. the same way you are entitled to yours and I would fight to death for your right to disagree with me, but I would also fight to death for my right not to have a way of thinking imposed by other people.

    After you breath and read the posts, to find out what I was talking about, it would be a pleasure to have a conversation.



  15. #75
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    whoa! deep breaths! talk about aggression ... that was my reply and i'm not going to waste further space on this thread restating it. I'm sorry you found it offensive, but read into it what you may....



  16. #76
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    "Clinic hell"? Even if you didn't like some of the riding. Clinic Hell?

    More like " axe to grind" based on the comments made.



  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast View Post
    "Clinic hell"? Even if you didn't like some of the riding. Clinic Hell?

    More like " axe to grind" based on the comments made.

    HOO HOO - LOL!

    This whole thread has been quite a read, hasn't it? So many varied opinions. Add that there are specific folks who accuse everyone around them of reading into their comments and being aggressive in practically every post of theirs in every thread I ever read, and I just start to skip over those and get to the ones that AREN'T posted by them.

    I do not say anyone's opinion is wrong. I DO say, wouldn't it be nice if...?

    I DO encourage people to think for themselves, and sort out what is best for them.

    I DO think people should reach for the stars, and they ARE reachable with understanding, humility, and willingness to learn.

    Not every horse is a wonder to ride, but EVERY horse is a result of its breeding (nervous system, build, temperment), its environment, and its training.

    If we can't afford the breeding we want or we can and the foal still isn't what we expected, then we should darn-well attempt to make it's environment and its training as conducive to perfection as we are able to. That means STUDY before you leap. Read books. Attend clinics with those whose methods and results of those methods you admire and who realistically can help you reach your goals -- don't go to Paris Hilton to learn morals (or singing for that matter) because all the flash in the world don't cut it when you get down to the gritty and it's all smoke and no substance.

    We should all have the privilege during our lives of starting with a foal and making few mistakes with it (when hopefully a bond of trust already formed will help them forgive you and move on). That only comes with study of theory, experience, and some 'oops' along the way.

    Spurs are not evil. Neither are they necessary.

    My opinion. Since I've already been advised in this thread that I am entitled to have one (thankyou, oh-so-gracious giver of permissions) I will keep it.

    The proof be in the pudding, puddin!



  18. #78
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    Dear Bluey -

    Freddie Knie was a circus rider.... and that's what riding a horse without any gear amounts to - circus riding. You should see what those trainers do to get the horse to the point where it does all those tricks without any gear....

    Best,
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  19. #79
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    Seigi - I know you didn't address it to me, but for the record I personally did not mention any specific riders or videos as examples.

    I know that this thread has gone way off topic, but since it has, and everyone seems ready to hop on for the ride --

    WHY is training with the least amount of gear/no gear akin to 'circus riding'?

    Is it because the circus is the most common place people seem to see horses working at liberty or without gear these days?

    ALSO - why would we think that a person who trains without the same gear and methods as everyone else must be using methods that are incorrect/false/less-than-respectable?

    Understanding and capitalizing on a horse's body language, herd instinct, ability to learn by repetition, and predator/prey reflexes is the foundation of training. It doesn't have to be done under a dressage saddle with a square pad in a double bridle.

    There are always going to be different opinions on training and equipment.

    The final proof is the supple, healthy, happy and obedient horse that responds to imperceptible aids, leaving others in its wake.



  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    Dear Bluey -

    Freddie Knie was a circus rider.... and that's what riding a horse without any gear amounts to - circus riding. You should see what those trainers do to get the horse to the point where it does all those tricks without any gear....

    Best,
    I guess someone had to point it out, sad tho it is.

    In addition, when y'all are talking about dressage movements/exercises ... please, let's not forget the part about QUALITY?

    When a little tap can say "a little more from here, please" when a finely nuanced seat aid might be misconstrued as one of any other nuanced seat aids ... well ...

    I guess it's just easier on both me and the horse to use a few extra pieces of "decoration" and if that's a shortcut, then well ... seriously, we're both happier for it.
    *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=



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