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  1. #21
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    Apr. 22, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllWeatherGal View Post
    I didn't learn that way, but the week I "got an independent seat" that's how the instructor had me ride. If I was wrong, my sainted schoolhorse let me know RIGHT away.

    Folks ... this is not just dressage, this is the current state of the WORLD. When we treat each other as commodities and expendable (I'm in a hurry today, so I'm going to cut you off, run this red light, make a dangerous u-turn in your way), when we turn a blind eye to the suffering of people not just across the world, but down the street ... how the HECK can you expect people to be attentive enough to their use of leg/foot?

    In addition, of all the people who are teaching "dressage" in my area alone, I'd say only a quarter of them have an independent seat and full control of their bodies more than half the time they're on a horse.
    The problem of the WORLD is that for some people, things are black or white ad there is no middle ground where to meet and agree.

    You complain about the WORLD, but you start your post in disagreement with my post, but your argument has nothing to do with what I said and my argument was not in opposition to what you said. But you found where to pick up an argument. The WORLD would be a better place if we will see that there is more colors than Black and White and more trues than WHAT I THINK. Same applies to Dressage. Same applies to this thread.

    I think we all agree that spurs used by someone that has no control of their legs is not a good idea. But then we all have different opinions about when to use them and how. Who is right and who is wrong. Everyone is right as long as you are not hurting your horse. Everyone has a style of riding and a differen opinion about the instruments and also a different way to used, for example:

    - The size of whips were reduced to avoid abuse ti the horses. Do you think that who wants to really beat a horse finds the lenght of the whip as an obstacle, I don't think so. I have seen people beat horses with a short bat.
    In my opinion a longer whip is better, because riders will pull less on the mouth of their horses while trying to use the whip;

    - The other day someone was visiting at the barn and noticed that I was ready to ride a horse and I was carrying two whips and this person made a comment" "wow that horse is in trouble". I thought that was weird, why riding with two whips would mean trouble. I always ride with two whips, because if I have two seat bones, two legs and two arms, why not taking two whips. In my mind I don't do it to hit the horse twice many times, is just, so I would not have to swith the whip from hand to hand and maybe be to late in my use of the whip.

    - Smaller spurs are softer on the horse? In my opinion no. I find that the shorter the spur the more the rider has to turn the leg to used, causing different balance problems, that are compensated in other ways. My opinon is that a longer spur allows the rider to give a soft tap with less turn of the leg, being less intrusive in the overall balance;

    And like this we can have a lot more examples. I don't think that my way of thinking is the only and correct solution. But for sure works for my style of riding and I think is correct because above all as a principle I don't abuse or hurt my horses. Someone might have a different theory or style and I am sure that they are also right as long as it suits their riding style and they don't hurt or abuse their horses.

    A WORLD full with different colors, everyone as important as the other.



  2. #22
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    Jul. 29, 2006
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    19

    Default Clinic with spurs

    I was very saddened for the horses that must tolerate this abuse for their meals. The poor schoolmasters that have paid their dues and are willing teachers must work with riders that cannot communicate correctly.
    I was taught to "earn my spurs." Small phrase with alot of meaning.
    Thank God there are instructors like ESG and Kasette that stand by their principles of correct training.
    I would make it my mission to give that "spur barn" a bad reputation. The trainer needs to refelct on the well-being of the horse and the education of the rider.



  3. #23
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    really? i think that there are *some* few folks that don't really care, but i think most ammies (young and old) dont want to hurt their horses. they love them. if you told them eye to eye what they were doing my bet is they would cry and feel horrid. i can only hope that once they had the info they would change what they were doing.....
    Well, I have told them, and they don't care. Yes, they may have cried (I can be rather unpleasant) and they may have felt horride but...

    They Have A Goal. They Need To Get Things Done.

    Don't you know, all FEI level riders wear spurs. Since that is their goal, they need to wear them, too And a derby, at training level but I digress.

    Don't fool yourself... for wayyyyy too many people, the horse is incidental.

    --

    I read a lovely post by Thomas Ritter on the value of being a GOOD first level rider versus a shitty GP rider.. I need to find it and ask him if I can repost it here. It was stunning, and should be required reading!



  4. #24
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    Jan. 4, 2007
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    Granite City, IL.
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    Here, Here, I agree with you whole heartedly. If the leg is good then a spur can be used to enhance the leg aid, but if the leg is not good neither type of spur should be used.



  5. #25
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    Nov. 19, 2002
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    1,015

    Default Clinic Hell

    Honestly, seriously, the clinician never stopped the clinic and demanded everyone take off the spurs???

    Did anyone question why these horses had to be tormented by these "riders" and their "trainer" with spurs attached to legs that are all over the place?

    Why is this? Why did no one raise hell over this? The need to be "nice"? The need to not upset the apple cart even at the expense of the animal?

    Am I the only one that feels it was the clinicians duty and responsibility to educate these riders about riding with a correct leg and strengthening that leg so it is not abusive to the horse ?

    Am I just living in the past when a trainer would pull you off of a horse for being abusive?

    WTH???



  6. #26
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    Jan. 29, 2002
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    Default

    This is one person's opinion of the riders at that clinic.



  7. #27
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    Oct. 16, 2006
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    I'm not sure why riders won't take responsibility for themselves.

    I know my leg isn't always great. I rarely wear spurs. When I go somewhere new to ride and the trainer says "everyone rides that horse in spurs" I reply "not me".

    For those of us who are adults, we should be able to tell (or at least admit) when "we" are the problem, not the horse!

    In the right hands, well really legs, they are a great tool.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  8. #28
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    May. 20, 2006
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    PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm View Post
    really? i think that there are *some* few folks that don't really care, but i think most ammies (young and old) dont want to hurt their horses. they love them. if you told them eye to eye what they were doing my bet is they would cry and feel horrid. i can only hope that once they had the info they would change what they were doing.....
    i have to say it's been my experience teaching in several disciplines that this is not true. people may think they "love" their horses, but very few actually put the horse first. i've told people over and over, your horse is lame. that's not a 2 handed bit. you're hurting him when you do that. people don't care, they have their goals and the horse is just their vehicle to get there, like a skier's skis or a tennis player's racket. the horse's feelings don't count.



  9. #29
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    Apr. 22, 2006
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    354

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToN Farm View Post
    This is one person's opinion of the riders at that clinic.
    Exactly.

    But some people have so much anger inside them, that seems like they are reading the forum waiting for an opportunity to be upset with someone. To make their "mission in life" to descredit certain barn, based on the opinion of one person.

    Having the time and the health to "make your mission in life" descredeting some barn, because in someone's opinion a rider was to strong with the leg! or because and amateur rider was not riding a Schoolmaster correctly! 18.000 children die of hunger every day, how about that for something you can make your mission in life!!



  10. #30
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    Aug. 7, 2005
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    Southern California/Muenchen
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    2,987

    Wink

    Great Posts by EQtrainer and PRE- although some friction- nothing to worry about- I am in agreement with both of you- although PRE- I would suggest riding with NO whip and using fine signals, more walk work and 'tuning' - it works magically!

    Spurs are a great tool for the accomplished rider that has a good solid independent seat and knows how to 'flick' them and use them as needed - WHEN needed. no clinic or schooling should be based on the presence of gadgets....as a trainer you must have the ability to tune your horses body to your body...that's all!!

    TOday- while I was riding - in a extremely and unusually cold southern california climate, a mini-eddy *tiny tournado style wind tunnel * built behind my horse, full of dry leaves, and spooked my horse big time...the effects were magical- although he set off with a major spin, buck- what came after was heavenly bliss of energy- nothing a spur or whip would ever produce...so look at it this way- it's all about good energy and you have to find a way to create it!!



  11. #31
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    Nov. 7, 2002
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    Central FL
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    5,291

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by P.R.E. View Post

    You complain about the WORLD, but you start your post in disagreement with my post, but your argument has nothing to do with what I said and my argument was not in opposition to what you said. But you found where to pick up an argument. The WORLD would be a better place if we will see that there is more colors than Black and White and more trues than WHAT I THINK. Same applies to Dressage. Same applies to this thread.
    Uh ... hmn ... well ... ahh ...

    Actually, I meant to be posting in AGREEMENT with you. I didn't learn the way you did, but when I finally got down to working with someone who "fixed" a bunch of my problems, it was much as you describe.

    I wasn't complaining about the world. Or didn't mean to be ... just pointing out that the situation is not limited to dressage riders ... it's ubiquitous.

    I'm sorry if my post appeared contentious our argumentative. That was not my intention.
    *=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=
    Dressage becomes art when it is a joy for the horse. -KBH

    Mighty Thoroughbred Clique Now on Facebook ... ... show the loff



  12. #32
    Join Date
    May. 17, 2002
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    126

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ToN Farm
    This is one person's opinion of the riders at that clinic.
    Quote Originally Posted by P.R.E. View Post
    Exactly.

    But some people have so much anger inside them, that seems like they are reading the forum waiting for an opportunity to be upset with someone. To make their "mission in life" to descredit certain barn, based on the opinion of one person.

    Having the time and the health to "make your mission in life" descredeting some barn, because in someone's opinion a rider was to strong with the leg! or because and amateur rider was not riding a Schoolmaster correctly! 18.000 children die of hunger every day, how about that for something you can make your mission in life!!
    Thanks for your common sense posts!

    I was the clinic organizer. When I saw EE's post, I thought she had to be referring to another clinic. Spur abuse?!? Not even close (in my opinion, and the opinion of the clinician, an SRS Bereiter). I realize people have different interpretations of what they see, but "spur abuse" is a bit dumbfounding to me.

    EE, I'd like to address a few of your comments:

    My impression is that you don't like the trainer (clinic was at her barn) and were looking for anything to criticize. It's too bad that the clinician got caught in your crossfire and that you couldn't find anything positive to say about him or the clinic. Your making him out to be a clinician that wasn't competent... sorry if I get defensive, but I and an awful lot of other people couldn't find much to fault him for.

    He might be one of the younger Bereiters, but he's been at the SRS for 13 years. That right there is more experience in training and teaching than most professionals get in their lifetime. And hey, it's correct training and teaching..how about that. If there'd been abuse of any kind, he would have stopped it. Hell, *I* would have stopped it.

    RE: the schedule and "most of the riders" being listed as 2nd level and above... there were 10 riders on Friday, the day you were there. 2 were listed at Training, 3 at First (one at First/Second), 2 at Second, 2 at Third, and one at FEI. That's hardly "most" of the riders being listed at 2nd or above.

    RE: the beautiful FEI Schoolmaster and the "3rd" Level rider... the fact that this was 'way too much horse for her, and that she was not a 3rd level rider was not lost on the clinician. The horse wasn't in misery... he also wasn't through, connected and working very hard, that's for sure... he knows he doesn't have to. I tried to put myself in her shoes... how would I feel if I had a horse like that and couldn't make him look the way he's supposed to look? She has a lot of pressure to live up to. She loves him and is doing the best she can. Frankly, I'm not going to get too upset over the fact that she doesn't ride him as a 3rd Level rider.

    RE: your comment that his English wasn't very good - I haven't gone through all the evaluations yet (I hope you filled one out... if not, I can email you one), but he has so far received high ratings for being easy to understand, and there were many comments about his excellent English. The translator who was there to help if needed commented about his English and how good it was. He never stopped talking with the riders and aside from occasionally asking for help to further clarify a point he was trying to make, the consensus is that he did an outstanding job with RE: communicating clearly.

    RE: the trainer making her horse go forward and almost running the clinician over... all I will say is that this horse has issues and the owner is very upset and sad about them. This past summer, the horse was doing beautiful 3rd Level work, and now is not. She is frustrated and therefore perhaps isn't as patient as she might otherwise be. None of us likes to be in that position, but I'll bet many of us can relate, whether it's with horses, children, pets, relatives, etc. The following day the clinician rode the horse for 15 minutes, got off, and said, "Give her a long break... a long time off of work." Please don't tell me that this clinician has any hesitation to do what he feels is in the best interest of the horse.

    The clinician was fabulous. He insisted on correct basics - if upper level horses weren't forward, they didn't do upper level movements. He rode the FEI Lipizzan on Sat - this is a horse who consistently scores in the 60s. We were expecting to see P & P, canter pirouettes, etc. Instead, he rode precise circles and figures, a little half-pass, a million walk-trot transitions, and some reinback, all at a very rhythmic sitting trot, for about 20 minutes. Never cantered. He was so focused that the audience was pulled into his focus - it was absolutely quiet (this is with about 50 people watching). He finished with trotting stretchy circles. He told the owner that the stallion was missing in his basics... he was leaning and needed to transfer more weight to the hindquarters. That until this was accomplished, he should not do upper level work. The good thing is that the owner agreed - she was very happy with the instruction she got.

    He was encouraging, kind, and if there were issues that might be embarrassing to the rider, he talked with them in private about it.

    Overall the evaluations were glowing, the riders happy, and the horses improved.

    Um, what else?

    Oh - your comment in another thread about him not being above taking "shortcuts", i.e. riding behind the vertical. I'm not a proponent of deep riding. After being told by several Bereiters (three of whom have worked with my horse, and one who is an "old guard"), as well as my trainer, who doesn't believe in shortcuts, either, that due to my horse's conformation, he initially needs to be worked slightly behind the vertical to bring his back up, and also seeing how my horse improves when I do this (I'm talking a few seconds at a time), I tend to believe them. They said that BTV is not correct... normally they do not do this. They would not do this with young horses or horses with no issues. But sometimes, with certain conformation, it is necessary initially to bring the back up. I'm not talking Rollkur or deeply BTV. Implying that he's taking shortcuts - no one who watched him during the 4 days would believe that.

    You can't please everyone, but we sure tried, although I probably shouldn't feel too bad for not pleasing someone who feels an SRS Bereiter doesn't meet her standards.
    Last edited by Speedy Alice; Jan. 15, 2007 at 10:52 AM. Reason: (oops, messed up quote thingy)



  13. #33
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    Aug. 7, 2005
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    Southern California/Muenchen
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    Thumbs up

    Speedy Alice- I am not anywhere near you - nor did I follow all the details of this thread- but I compliment you on organizing a good clinic and helping more folks to see a good trainer and teacher in action. I think EE needs to chill a bit and ride more!! there is no perfect answer for everything and riding a horse btv for a focussed and effective warmup - goes a long way to teach him how to work well and stay healthy for a long riding life...

    Clinics and organizing them is a thankless job and I think you need to be applauded for making this happen for folks that otherwise would not have that experience- even if it takes them a while to really understand all the details.

    I hope this does not deter you from doing it again!



  14. #34
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    May. 17, 2002
    Location
    Michigan
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    Sabine - thanks!

    I love organizing clinics and hope to do many more in the future. This is the 2nd SRS clinic I've organized, and part of the reason I do them is because I passionately believe in what they do and how they teach, ride, and treat horses... I'd love as many people as possible to be exposed to this type of riding and instruction.

    My goal in clinic organizing (aside from the selfish motivation of having some instruction for myself!) is to provide the best possible experience for the auditors, riders, and clinician and keep everyone as happy and satisfied with their experience as possible.

    Sometimes that can't always happen... once, he was speaking at the far end of the arena, mic off, with the rider for a number of minutes. An auditor asked if I could have them come to where the auditors were so they could hear. My reply was that sometimes the clinician and rider don't want the auditors to hear... sometimes what the clinician was saying was something that the rider herself didn't particularly want to hear, and in those situations, I leave that entirely up to his discretion.

    So unfortunately it isn't always possible to know everything that's going on with a particular horse and rider, and the background or issues that they have. It also isn't possible to know everything that the clinician tells a rider, either during the lesson or afterwards. Esp in those cases, it's understandable that someone not knowing all the facts could draw erroneous conclusions.

    I often don't accept at face value everything people tell me, and I'll question things I don't understand or don't trust. But in the case of the SRS Bereiters I've met, I trust that any instruction or advice they are giving me is gold, and I can't say that about a lot of things.

    So - more clinics to come this summer.



  15. #35
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    Dec. 14, 2005
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    southern california
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    Default

    Well, here I go gain "treading on thin ice" again at my barn for being so brash as to question the value of doubles and draws but, here goes. I think we seem to live in a fast food nation where many riders want to pit their education in the microwave instead of the coventional oven so to speak. When you can buy friends and beauty, esp. in so.cal., why not buy you place at fei? I saw a lady on her schoolmaster, whom her trainer rode up ubtil the minyte before her ride time, do a volte on the wrong lead and was pleased as punch when she looked down to change leads and voila! she didn't have to! How convenient!She and her $$ bounced from Olympic trainer to the next and has since disappeared.At my stable, trainers have most of their students in draws and spurs. I tell my clients that if your trainer puts you in draws, etc. it must mean they either don't know how to tech or they think you're a hopeless moron and not worthy of their sage teachings. Yeah, I get frustrated, but it just means I have to illuminate the training scale and its application in ways the individual can relate to it. I'm never bored! There is no substitutefor repetition with positive reinforcement for getting a horse forward. And now, I must prepare for the silent treatment ftom the queens tomorrow, oh wait, they don't talk to me anyway!!



  16. #36
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    Nov. 19, 2002
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    Default Clinic Hell

    Speedy Alice: As Paul Harvey use to say, "And now for the rest of the story".

    Thanks.



  17. #37
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    Jul. 19, 2001
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    Thanks for posting, Speedy. These "Appalling Abuse!!" stories always make me wonder what the person actually saw.

    You can't please everyone, but we sure tried, although I probably shouldn't feel too bad for not pleasing someone who feels an SRS Bereiter doesn't meet her standards.
    No kidding. Not even Kottas is up to the standards of the keyboard classicists (on another thread).



  18. #38
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    Mar. 28, 2006
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    I am going to be very honest, in all my years of riding, attending shows, clinics etc. I have only seen spur marks on two horse. One was an eventers horse who was in a dressage lesson and she showed up with the spur mark...the other was a hunter rider and it was more of a rub from a round ended spur.

    So I don't think it's so wide spread that there should be an uprising in the dressage community.
    "When you think you don't need a coach ...then you're in trouble" Don Imus 2012



  19. #39
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    Nov. 2, 2006
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
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    Personally, I think there is a nationwide issue with people NOT getting their horse responsive to their seat. In my opinion, there should be no need for whips or spurs if the horse is truly on the aids. And this fault falls on the shoulders of the trainers/instructors.

    I've seen way too many folks who, to put it simply, are overhorsed. The reason I say this is because at a recent clinic with a past Olympian, 8 of the 9 horses were WBs (most imported). The non-WB was a TB. The clinician essentially had to get on each horse (except for the TB) and resensitize it to the riders seat. Each rider had been working in spurs, which caused the horse to tense even more.

    And the most interesting part to me was that the highest trained horses (those at PSG, I2, etc.) were the ones that put up the biggest fight about having to move off the rider's seat. By fight I mean some pretty serious rearing, bucking, and spinning. The sad part was that it became obvious that the AA riders, good as they were, were too intimidated by their horses to ride through the bucks and rears. The clinician did a wonderful job of staying quiet and keeping calm persistence in asking the horse to "move off my seat NOW." Sadly, I do wonder how long the AAs will be able to keep their horses "off the seat" after the clinic.



  20. #40
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    Apr. 22, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherie View Post
    At my stable, trainers have most of their students in draws and spurs. I tell my clients that if your trainer puts you in draws, etc. it must mean they either don't know how to tech or they think you're a hopeless moron and not worthy of their sage teachings. Yeah, I get frustrated, but it just means I have to illuminate the training scale and its application in ways the individual can relate to it. I'm never bored! There is no substitutefor repetition with positive reinforcement for getting a horse forward. And now, I must prepare for the silent treatment ftom the queens tomorrow, oh wait, they don't talk to me anyway!!
    I tell my friends, that there are some people in dressage that are psychics and they know exactly what other people are thinking and without any doubt they know why they do what they do. Personally I think that these psychics are "hopeless morons and not worthy of my time".

    I don't blame the queens for not talking to you, you are so bitter and full of absolutes, that I would not talk to you either, I would be afraid of doing it.



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