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  1. #101
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    "...I am not here to play Kumbaya..."

    German, Dutch, Swahili -- who cares: How about we all grab a can of Coca-Cola and sing that old song on the coke commercials, "I'd love to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony..."

    Well, maybe that is too much a cultural reference for some here. Choklit, anyone?



  2. #102
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    Default But the 1 million $ question remains

    But the 1 million $ question remains unanswered.

    Why are the majority of the US-riders riding their horses in such a long frame (no collection, nose so far out).

    And in some videos I noticed that when the rider ask for collection the horse turns his ears to the back and get nasty.

    Theo



  3. #103
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    theo, that looks like an interesting new thread subject to me. I don't know if you'll get the best answers buried under this thread title.

    Here's something AOL has on it's front page: others getting along. It's a funny video, I hope it plays:
    http://us.video.aol.com/video.index.adp?pmmsid=1808027



  4. #104
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    Can you posts links to these videos so we can possibly help you understand?

    I have noticed a diference as well. When I saw the footage of the Dutch Championships, all I saw were horses so shortened in the neck, chest-biting bend and extremely restricted. You wouldn't have any insight on this style of riding would you? Since we are generalizing here.
    *** 4 More Years ***
    *** 4 More Years ***



  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsedances View Post
    But the 1 million $ question remains unanswered. Why are the majority of the US-riders riding their horses in such a long frame (no collection, nose so far out).
    Maybe all the Americans who can really ride are out doing just that instead of posting their videos to Youtube?



  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard Ridge View Post
    Maybe all the Americans who can really ride are out doing just that instead of posting their videos to Youtube?

    Best reply so far



  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsedances View Post
    Why are the majority of the US-riders riding their horses in such a long frame (no collection, nose so far out).
    Oh for God's sake. Since you need straight talk and no sugar coating here it is:

    You are making uninformed assumptions based on a small sampling.
    That is ignorant.



  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsedances View Post
    But the 1 million $ question remains unanswered.

    Why are the majority of the US-riders riding their horses in such a long frame (no collection, nose so far out).

    And in some videos I noticed that when the rider ask for collection the horse turns his ears to the back and get nasty.

    Theo
    Well Theo, I will take a stab at answering it. You don't have hunters in Holland right? Little kids learn dressage basics and not from a HJ trainer. Here a lot of the dressage riders are converts from the hunter world. There they ride on a long rein, more strung out and on the forehand. A lot of lower level trainers who dabble in dressage and riders who came over from the hunter world never fully make the transition into what you would call proper dressage. The hunter world is a very big market in the US with big $$$ spent on horses, showing, training etc.

    In addition, I think there is a little truth in the comments that the good riders are not posting all over Youtube. We do have some very good dressage riding in the US too believe it or not. The winning rides in my region are not the long rein strung out ones you are describing. We also have a fair amount of the other extreme in the US too- people who always ride behind the vertical, never getting their horse to really use its back and stretch. We even have those who practice Rolkur.

    I don't think the good dressage riders here are that much different than the good ones in Holland.



  9. #109
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    I don't understand why people are even trying to answer the question, obviously this person only wants to create trouble and is a disgrace to the netherlands. Most dutch people are open minded ,honest but fair which Theo lacks reading his comments



  10. #110
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    Default Finally

    Quote Originally Posted by kkj View Post
    Well Theo, I will take a stab at answering it. You don't have hunters in Holland right? Little kids learn dressage basics and not from a HJ trainer. Here a lot of the dressage riders are converts from the hunter world. There they ride on a long rein, more strung out and on the forehand. A lot of lower level trainers who dabble in dressage and riders who came over from the hunter world never fully make the transition into what you would call proper dressage. The hunter world is a very big market in the US with big $$$ spent on horses, showing, training etc.

    In addition, I think there is a little truth in the comments that the good riders are not posting all over Youtube. We do have some very good dressage riding in the US too believe it or not. The winning rides in my region are not the long rein strung out ones you are describing. We also have a fair amount of the other extreme in the US too- people who always ride behind the vertical, never getting their horse to really use its back and stretch. We even have those who practice Rolkur.

    I don't think the good dressage riders here are that much different than the good ones in Holland.
    Finally an answer we can build a further discussion upon. And Yes I know that manyyyyyyy riders in the USA know how to ride their horses in a dressage-frame.

    Thanks KKJ, because this is exactly what I ment to start a discussion about.

    Theo



  11. #111
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    Default OMG

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchmike View Post
    I don't understand why people are even trying to answer the question, obviously this person only wants to create trouble and is a disgrace to the netherlands. Most dutch people are open minded ,honest but fair which Theo lacks reading his comments
    Most Dutch dressage-riders, clinicians, judges and trainers who have been over there used much harder words to describe what they found out in the US concernig this topic. So Mike, play your game, and try to become popular on this forum, and continue telling blahblahblah.
    BTW. Where did you train in Holland ?

    Theo



  12. #112
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    Theo, if you wanted to start a discussion about "why americans ride in a long frame", perhaps you should not have started it with a discussion about youtube videos and riders not welcoming harsh criticism. I don't know exactly why, but this thread has annoyed me greatly.

    You start by making disparaging comments about some riders on youtube, then talk about how you graciously 'critiqued' them and they didn't like it-- THEN it becomes a discussion about how americans as a culture are too effusive and sugar coat everything and don't tell it like it is (bullsnit, by the way) and then you decide that it's ACTUALLY a discussion about why oh why is american riding so dismally lacking in collection? What could be wrong in america that the riders are shlepping around on long reins and riding so abysmally?

    Here's my sugar coated response:
    Perhaps you should look at more riders before making such broad generalisations. You might not realize it, but you are speaking quite rudely. I am sure you didn't intend that, so maybe next time, you should temper your words and quit making such broad generalisations.

    Here's my straight talking response:
    Cut the crap. You are behaving like an antiamerican bigot and it is quite ugly. Treat your fellow humans with respect.



  13. #113
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    Default

    Theo, do you even ride? Howsabout some videos of THAT?



  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsedances View Post
    Most Dutch dressage-riders, clinicians, judges and trainers who have been over there used much harder words to describe what they found out in the US concernig this topic. So Mike, play your game, and try to become popular on this forum, and continue telling blahblahblah.
    BTW. Where did you train in Holland ?

    Theo
    It is not about becoming popular it is about being modest and not having kapsones. Where and with whom I have trained is not important in this topic nor do I feel the need to boast to be quite honest. The fact is that some people need to belittle others because of their own insecurities. I have been just about all over the planet and have met a few noboddies like you every where that are quick on the draw critising without being constructive. Like the dutch say "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal" and obviously you fall into that categorie



  15. #115
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    I think that all the people who are getting their panties in a twist by the criticisms of riding in the US and American's inability to handle criticism, are lending further credence to the assertion that people in US can't handle the truth and expect a sugar-coated praise of their riding.

    If I am paying you (clinic, lesson, judge whatever), give me your honest opinion. I don't want someone to stroke my ego and lift me up to think I am better than I am. I want something I can take and work on. If you post yourself on Youtube, your bad, you better be ready to take the opinion of whoever feels compelled to comment.



  16. #116
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    pshaw. I take criticism of MY riding and learn from it. I don't take generalized criticism of every rider in my danged country. That's just stupid. There is definitely an odd bias to the posts.



  17. #117
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    Wanted to add that it does not lend credence to that idea. Bullies the world over use that argument:


    Bully: You are so thinskinned! You can't take simple criticism. Your riding sucks and horses everywhere would breathe a sigh of relief if you quit.

    Person: I am not, that is not true and is mean spirited.

    Bully: See?! You ARE thinskinned!



  18. #118
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchmike View Post
    It is not about becoming popular it is about being modest and not having kapsones. Where and with whom I have trained is not important in this topic nor do I feel the need to boast to be quite honest. The fact is that some people need to belittle others because of their own insecurities. I have been just about all over the planet and have met a few noboddies like you every where that are quick on the draw critising without being constructive. Like the dutch say "de beste stuurlui staan aan wal" and obviously you fall into that categorie
    How far can you come with a trainer who is modest. The US-riders all went to Germany or The Netherlands to train with the big names, and do you really believe these trainers were/are modest. Wake up.

    Because I made the music for Kathleen Raine for the Sydney Olympics I watched several trainingsessions of her with Johan Hinneman. Johan is one of the most easy going trainers and a perfect gentleman but I heard several (what you call) harsh remarks.

    Furthermore you can put me in any category you want, but the beauty of this board is the "ignore button" . Please tell us something about your credentials and/or backgrounds and maybee I will take your opinion in consideration.

    Theo



  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by mutable View Post
    How is anyone supposed to get the idea that this is a thread about collection when the title is Are you always that friendly ??
    Because when somebody post a ride where the horse is 90% of in a wrong (zomebody called it a hunter) frame and not a dressage frame and I only read comments like woooow, beautifull etc....and the ones who think, this the worst ride I ever saw stay within the silent majority I wonder what the goal is for such postings.

    So my goal had a double purpose: why is nobody telling the truth, while these posters ask for critique, and why are so many horses riding in a wrong frame. Go to the FEI website and see what the ulimate goal of dressage-riding is ?

    Theo



  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsedances View Post
    Most Dutch dressage-riders, clinicians, judges and trainers who have been over there used much harder words to describe what they found out in the US concernig this topic. So Mike, play your game, and try to become popular on this forum, and continue telling blahblahblah.
    BTW. Where did you train in Holland ?

    Theo

    They have used much harder words to describe what they found in the US? What is thta supposed to mean, because some Dutch trainer doesn't like what they found here, everyone has to do change what they are doing, because the "correct way" is the way of your friends?

    Why you get so offensive with Mike? because he disagrees with your statement? is that your idea of a discussion?

    At least you can make a comment about the American style of riding, because Americans are not ashamed of how they ride, so you can actually see there pictures and videos and start your nasty topics. We can't say the same of some of your friends, that go around threatening with lawyers if someone dares to show a picture or a video of how they train!!

    Let's make the 2 million dollar question, why when you attend a horse show in Holland, we see more and more riders getting their horses round pulling on a double briddle while they stand and push in the stirrups? Or these is a subject that can't be discussed. (Note. I ma not talking about good round and deep riding, I am tallking about that super style of pull and push and don't take pictures of me while I do it!!)



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