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  1. #21
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    Aug. 25, 2004
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    Default Exactly this is what I am talking about

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiaway View Post
    Theo,
    you spend way too much time thinking about how we americans stink compared to your country/europe. Get outside, breath. Enjoy living and riding where you are. We all can't be perfect.
    Where you the poster of this video ?

    Theo



  2. #22
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    Mar. 11, 2003
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    I think in general people in the US try to be nice.... some may not necessarily mean it, but they will say nice things about each other (the notable exception is TOB when the subject is AVG or anybody else not paying homage to the ODGs). :-)

    I also think that folks that put a video of themselves performing (riding, etc.) on a public site have bigger problems than can be solved by well-meaning commentators. Unless it's a young person (below 15 or so) showing off to his/her internet buddies, posting footage of yourself on YouTube to me smacks of exhibitionism and should probably treated with the help of a trained counselor and/or drugs. My guess is that these folks post their video thinking that what they did was really good and, therefore, will be admired by the masses. Then, when they get the slightest negative comment their bubble bursts and they withdraw or turn nasty.

    You have seen it on this BB when people will post a picture or video and ask for comments. And yes, the best response is to wither be quiet or say something nice because anything less will not be received well.

    I can't believe you made me write all this, Theo!! :-)
    Segi, I think you are not correct in your assessment. I have put videos up on YouTube of both my horses looking for constructive criticism. I was deathly afraid, but most people here are fairly knowledgeable and therefore any helpful comments were welcome. I don't think that makes me an exhibitionist. I was terrified, but one of my horses I have only recently gotten help with, so I was looking to get help with her.

    I think its ok to post videos on youtube and share them here. BUT, you have to be able to take the constructive criticism, and weed out the obviously mean comments that inevitably comes along.

    Thanks Theo for offering up a good topic. This bb has been very, very boring all week long.



  3. #23

    Default

    Heh. This discussion happens in every critique-oriented community I've ever been in. IMO, a community tends to develop an expected/accepted level of criticism, and that can range from sugar-coated praise to blunt, almost harsh criticism. Both posters and commenters, as far as I'm concerned, have a responsibility to understand the community they're participating in-- if you post a video on a "harsh" site, don't whine when it gets picked apart. On the other hand, if you post a "harsh" comment on a sugar-coated site... don't whine when people don't want to hear it.

    Take the time to figure out what the community expects with regards to criticism. If you don't like that level of criticism, find a community that matches your philosophy. Or buck the community's expectations, but don't expect everyone to bow down to you when you do. What you have to say might well be valuable--just not to that particular community.



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2005
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    The Prairie
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    Default

    I think that if someone from a bb links to a video and ask for a critique or "what do you think" then they should expect people will actually tell them what they think. I would also hope that they don't have a regular coach and not much opportunity to clinic and are actually hoping for useful comment. If they have a coach..why are they asking the nameless faceless masses on the internet? I can imagine that if you were a coach opening up a video of what turned out to be your student you would be more than somewhat taken aback...

    For the person who has a regular coach..that they have confidence in...why would they put up a video on a public site?? I could see asking someone, who you know to have credibility, please have a look at this..
    But just asking anyone's opinion? I don't get it.



  5. #25
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    Apr. 9, 2006
    Location
    Texas
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    638

    Default

    Theo je laat het klinken alsof iedereen in Nederland zo goed rijd en je weet net zo goed als ik dat dat niet het geval is. Dressuur in de USA is nog niet de helft zo populair als in Nederland. De USDF heeft 40000 leden en dat is niets voor een land zo groot als dit. Deze mensen moeten aangemoedigd worden en jou manier van praten helpt niet om dressuur te promoten. Af en toe kom je verder met honing dan met de zweep.



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug. 7, 2000
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    3,946

    Default

    so, armed with my beloved if clumsy intertran.com, what I think you are saying is:
    (basically)

    ' Theo, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar'...

    okey-dokey!

    LOL



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2004
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    The Netherlands
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    Default

    YF,

    There is nothing wrong with your videos, and yes maybee when I send them to Coby, Johan or Inge they can find something. Something to help you. But (again) in general I noticed that these posters ask for critique, and when someone give them what they asked for, they are furious.

    Theo



  8. #28
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    Apr. 9, 2006
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    Texas
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    638

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by canyonoak View Post
    so, armed with my beloved if clumsy intertran.com, what I think you are saying is:
    (basically)

    ' Theo, you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar'...

    okey-dokey!

    LOL
    to catch flies poop works best



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2004
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    The Netherlands
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchmike View Post
    Theo je laat het klinken alsof iedereen in Nederland zo goed rijd en je weet net zo goed als ik dat dat niet het geval is. Dressuur in de USA is nog niet de helft zo populair als in Nederland. De USDF heeft 40000 leden en dat is niets voor een land zo groot als dit. Deze mensen moeten aangemoedigd worden en jou manier van praten helpt niet om dressuur te promoten. Af en toe kom je verder met honing dan met de zweep.
    Oh no DutchMike, I don't come with honey or the whip. I come with my opinion. I told here already I am not trying to become populair and cover my words in silk. Furthermore don't put words in my mouth which i didn't use.

    And if I may give you and advice google around on YouTube and see for yourself.



  10. #30
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    Apr. 9, 2006
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    Texas
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Horsedances View Post
    Oh no DutchMike, I don't come with honey or the whip. I come with my opinion. I told here already I am not trying to become populair and cover my words in silk. Furthermore don't put words in my mouth which i didn't use.

    And if I may give you and advice google around on YouTube and see for yourself.
    I don't need to see youtube to give my opinion I do that in person when I am asked for it. Live and let live. If those people are happy with what they do then who are you or who ever to knock them down. It is easy to criticise others but hard to encourage them to do better without being patronizing



  11. #31
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    Aug. 12, 2005
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    640

    Default

    I think I've killed random people with my youtube footage of my riding.
    I lost count of the times I’ve given up on you
    But you make such a beautiful wreck you do



  12. #32
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    Jun. 23, 2004
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    Loudoun County, VA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by siegi b. View Post
    I also think that folks that put a video of themselves performing (riding, etc.) on a public site have bigger problems than can be solved by well-meaning commentators. Unless it's a young person (below 15 or so) showing off to his/her internet buddies, posting footage of yourself on YouTube to me smacks of exhibitionism and should probably treated with the help of a trained counselor and/or drugs.
    Too hilarious. For the record, I wouldn't even know how to post on youtube.



  13. #33
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    Mar. 11, 2003
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    3,131

    Default

    .
    Last edited by YoungFilly; Jan. 7, 2007 at 06:19 PM.



  14. #34
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    Aug. 7, 2005
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    Southern California/Muenchen
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    Wink

    Theo,
    as German and rider from childhood- I have to say that in the US we are more tactful about hurting people's feelings and being more remote in not taking the risk of telling an unpleasant truth...some of this might be founded in the victorian roots of this country of proper conduct and respect towards others that you don't know.

    I know it certainly can stand in the way of getting proper instruction and getting ahead in your training...I have often experienced this myself and therefore resorted to fellow Germans in being taught and helping me- because I find once they realize that you are on the same page with them- they will be honest and tough and push you forward. The sad part about really learning how to ride dressage well is that your trainer must have permission to be tough - because otherwise it might take longer than a lifetime to learn it and become really competent- especially as amateur with limited riding time...



  15. #35
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    Sep. 13, 2002
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    2,251

    Default

    People suck.....er...um...but they all ride beautifully and show a lot of potential.



  16. #36
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    Jul. 5, 2006
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    169

    Default

    I have also participated in other types of critiques. There seem to always be a few who take great pride in 'telling it like it is' and 'speaking the truth'. It is possible to critique without ripping someone apart. I have looked at the most naiive and coarse pieces of artwork and managed to give helpful criticism without making the artists feel like a worm. The trick is to actually find something good to say and to make the bad easy to swallow. So, instead of saying, "That's not riding and you have no seat. Your horse must hate you." You could say, "Lunge lessons would be invaluable to you. When you feel more secure in your seat, you will be able to execute that movement much more cleanly. Y'see it IS all about the seat, blah, blah, blah." It's not that you don't say what needs to be said! But if you want to HELP and you want people to LISTEN, you must meet them where they are. I will listen to anyone I respect. They can say a lot more than someone I do NOT. I will also listen if I think the person is intterested in seeing the whole picture, good AND bad. I will NOT listen to people who seem more interested in showing off how sneeringly superior they are.



  17. #37
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2002
    Location
    Waterford, VA USA
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    4,871

    Default

    Happy Vagrant - that was perfectly put and I couldn't agree with you more.

    Thank you!
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  18. #38
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    Apr. 9, 2006
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    Texas
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zinnniaz View Post
    I have also participated in other types of critiques. There seem to always be a few who take great pride in 'telling it like it is' and 'speaking the truth'. It is possible to critique without ripping someone apart. I have looked at the most naiive and coarse pieces of artwork and managed to give helpful criticism without making the artists feel like a worm. The trick is to actually find something good to say and to make the bad easy to swallow. So, instead of saying, "That's not riding and you have no seat. Your horse must hate you." You could say, "Lunge lessons would be invaluable to you. When you feel more secure in your seat, you will be able to execute that movement much more cleanly. Y'see it IS all about the seat, blah, blah, blah." It's not that you don't say what needs to be said! But if you want to HELP and you want people to LISTEN, you must meet them where they are. I will listen to anyone I respect. They can say a lot more than someone I do NOT. I will also listen if I think the person is intterested in seeing the whole picture, good AND bad. I will NOT listen to people who seem more interested in showing off how sneeringly superior they are.
    exactly



  19. #39
    Join Date
    Nov. 3, 2004
    Location
    Midwest
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    2,088

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zinnniaz View Post
    I have also participated in other types of critiques. There seem to always be a few who take great pride in 'telling it like it is' and 'speaking the truth'. It is possible to critique without ripping someone apart. I have looked at the most naiive and coarse pieces of artwork and managed to give helpful criticism without making the artists feel like a worm. The trick is to actually find something good to say and to make the bad easy to swallow. So, instead of saying, "That's not riding and you have no seat. Your horse must hate you." You could say, "Lunge lessons would be invaluable to you. When you feel more secure in your seat, you will be able to execute that movement much more cleanly. Y'see it IS all about the seat, blah, blah, blah." It's not that you don't say what needs to be said! But if you want to HELP and you want people to LISTEN, you must meet them where they are. I will listen to anyone I respect. They can say a lot more than someone I do NOT. I will also listen if I think the person is intterested in seeing the whole picture, good AND bad. I will NOT listen to people who seem more interested in showing off how sneeringly superior they are.
    Well said. I like to see the rides of those who put them up for critique. I learn from them. I try to evaluate what I see against what others say. If we all went into it with the spirit that Zinnia recommends, this would be an instructive opportunity, indeed.



  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jul. 24, 2002
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    1,066

    Default

    I think that a good teacher will know how to work with each of their students to get the best performance out of them. As I've learned from my dutch dressage trainer that when my horse does something wrong, not to get after him, but to remember that this is part of the learning process, so does my trainer know that when I make a mistake, it's also part of the learning process. He can tell me what I've done wrong, but yelling would serve no purpose. Now, if I wasnt listening or trying, then a little "WHAT ARE YOU DOING" may be in order, but it's not the general tone of our lessons.



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