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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,670

    Thumbs down Are you always that friendly

    There is an upcoming amount of people who publish their rides on YOURTUBE. The most comments these people receive are possitive, and seldom you see some negative comments. I don't mean traininglevel or level I rides. But when it comes down to level 3 and higher, and people ask "please critique" they must be able to handle critique.

    This week I was watching one of these video's together with a GrandPrix rider and a I-judge, the red-line in their comments was that the lack of collection througout the whole test resulted in bad (half) pirouette's, and tons of problems in the flying changes. The horse was riden in such a long frame that we joked "the tail is still at A and the Nose is already at C" .

    When I posted some very constructive comments about the ride, the video was removed and the rider was angry.

    Please take in consideration that we (over here) are much more direct in our comments. "Maybee you short work on your seat" is very often translated in our language as "First start working on your seat".

    In general I noticed that tooo many horses in the USA are riden much "te veel uit elkaar"

    Theo



  2. #2
    Join Date
    May. 8, 2002
    Posts
    3,184

    Default

    Theo,
    you spend way too much time thinking about how we americans stink compared to your country/europe. Get outside, breath. Enjoy living and riding where you are. We all can't be perfect.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar. 27, 2001
    Location
    Between the Medina River and a hay field
    Posts
    9,894

    Default

    I understand what Theo is saying but in the same instance, I have a new rule in life and that is to take care of myself, my horses and my riding. Others will do as they choose and thats their problem or not.
    www.spindletopfarm.net
    Home of Puerto D'Azur - 1998 NA 100 Day Test Champion
    "Charcter is much easier kept than recovered"



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    8,867

    Default 2 things

    1) I am not a big fan of judging rides on video. I think it doesn't show a good ride very well and it can make a mediocre ride look OK.

    2) I have to know something about someone to know whether their opinion is relevant and valuable to me or not. So in that context, I probably wouldn't care too much about comments posted on the internet. In fact, I guess I'd be unlikely to ask for any comments. But if I did and you said my riding sucked, I wouldn't cry about it.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun. 23, 2004
    Location
    Loudoun County, VA
    Posts
    10,412

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Horsedances View Post
    There is an upcoming amount of people who publish their rides on YOURTUBE. The most comments these people receive are possitive, and seldom you see some negative comments. I don't mean traininglevel or level I rides. But when it comes down to level 3 and higher, and people ask "please critique" they must be able to handle critique.

    This week I was watching one of these video's together with a GrandPrix rider and a I-judge, the red-line in their comments was that the lack of collection througout the whole test resulted in bad (half) pirouette's, and tons of problems in the flying changes. The horse was riden in such a long frame that we joked "the tail is still at A and the Nose is already at C" .

    When I posted some very constructive comments about the ride, the video was removed and the rider was angry.

    Please take in consideration that we (over here) are much more direct in our comments. "Maybee you short work on your seat" is very often translated in our language as "First start working on your seat".

    In general I noticed that tooo many horses in the USA are riden much "te veel uit elkaar"

    Theo
    I'd be psyched if a knowledgeable judge or trainer offered his/her critique of one of my rides.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2002
    Location
    Waterford, VA USA
    Posts
    4,803

    Default

    I think in general people in the US try to be nice.... some may not necessarily mean it, but they will say nice things about each other (the notable exception is TOB when the subject is AVG or anybody else not paying homage to the ODGs). :-)

    I also think that folks that put a video of themselves performing (riding, etc.) on a public site have bigger problems than can be solved by well-meaning commentators. Unless it's a young person (below 15 or so) showing off to his/her internet buddies, posting footage of yourself on YouTube to me smacks of exhibitionism and should probably treated with the help of a trained counselor and/or drugs. My guess is that these folks post their video thinking that what they did was really good and, therefore, will be admired by the masses. Then, when they get the slightest negative comment their bubble bursts and they withdraw or turn nasty.

    You have seen it on this BB when people will post a picture or video and ask for comments. And yes, the best response is to wither be quiet or say something nice because anything less will not be received well.

    I can't believe you made me write all this, Theo!! :-)
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 24, 2000
    Location
    Boulder
    Posts
    3,500

    Default

    We see that a lot on the Bulletin boards as well. Someone will post a thread saying, "my new horse, please critique" then they will say, "here's my new horse, she's a 16 hand daughter of Rubenstein, I've been riding her about a minute, what do you think of her?"

    Of course, those of us who like to critique will spend some time typing diligent and diplomatic replies sprinkled with some helpful hints.

    Then, the rider comes back and says, "You are all so negative. I did not ask for a critique! I just wanted to see what you though of my new horse."

    Sooo, I think it would be much better if people were honest in titling their threads. They should say "my new horse, please hit me with a lot of false platitudes, because I've got buyer's remorse and I can't tell my husband I might have made an expensive mistake."

    posting footage of yourself on YouTube to me smacks of exhibitionism and should probably treated with the help of a trained counselor and/or drugs.
    LOL! The same goes for putting a picture of yourself up on the bulletin boards. It's better to say, "I'm posting this for a friend." The best ever was the girl who said, "this is my identical twin sister." Yeah, right!
    Last edited by Kathy Johnson; Jan. 6, 2007 at 04:45 PM. Reason: siegi was posting at the same time



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr. 3, 2006
    Posts
    162

    Default

    OMG, KathyJohnson that was so funny.

    Theo, do you find the Flemish people in Belgium to be as direct as the Dutch people?



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan. 30, 2003
    Posts
    2,529

    Default

    theo, you tried to do well. Let it go, have some choklit.

    I only wonder what this rider's trainer was telling him/her all along for your critique to be such a suprise.

    Regarding directness and people's cultures: this was an FEI test published internationally. I believe people can be equally direct regardless of their nationality. Have some choklit... just don't critique the little kids anytime soon on their darling ponies, leave it to their trainers



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug. 26, 2003
    Location
    Joliette, QC, Canada
    Posts
    4,286

    Default

    It was very generous to spend time watching the video and trying to be constructive.
    If I ever do one, I'll let you know and be very open for every comment !

    The problem here is that our society is build on the medal culture; I have been trained in my youth by European coach and learned to shut up, listen and execute. This is not how people think here; everything take such a personnal side.

    I think there is smart people that understand you cannot grow without suffering a bit, at least in their pride. I love to talk with them.

    Off course this is my very personnal opinion !
    Élène

    Fighting ovarian cancer ! 2013 huge turnaround as I am winning the battle !..
    http://esergerie.wordpress.com



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2005
    Location
    Northeast
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    10,243

    Default

    I tend to go with most of the comments. You haven't seen me post a picture or a video, and you never will. If I want a critique, I pay for it, along with what I hope is helpful instruction, on how to at least 1/2 way fix it. If I want just plain critics I can listen to my family.

    Horsedances!! please trasnslate your last line. Knowing you, I probably agree, but first I want to hear it. Nicht sprechen sie Deutsche, or Dutch.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2005
    Posts
    128

    Default

    He said horses and riders ride too much from each other. I assume he means not as a pair or in harmony.



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul. 27, 2006
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    164

    Default

    I think it is also possible that there are misunderstandings. I have sometimes read comments that came across to me as very harsh (and I try and be open-minded, I really do-when writing comments, too). Sometimes language barrier too. Still, try and give the person the benefit of the doubt Harsh or otherwise, they are trying to help! And as I think SLC said once, free advice is worth what you pay for it Not that I haven't personally received helpful advice on here, but the sentiment stands!

    I agree with posting what you really want to hear e.g. I have seen posts with "please be gentle" added to the subject line. As a courtesy to others so they don't take the time to write an in-depth "criticism" when you just want to be told you rock

    I don't think they are necessarily exhibitionists, although that probably comes into some of it. I know I sometimes just want another opinion, and since there is only one real dressage coach at my barn... I just take what I hear with a grain of salt!

    As to the comment "are you always so friendly"...I am Canadian, not American, but still anytime I or an aquaintance has taken a lesson with someone European or even predominatly-European trained, they have found them direct, at the VERY least (usually harsh, mean, negative...:P) So I think it is possible we soften our critiques as much as possible (Instead of "can you feel the wrong diagonal? That's REALLY great feel! So sit for two..." to a intermediate-adv rider (canadian) "OMG, change your diagonal!" (European-trained-->more to-the-pioint, but no "positive") That is just my limited experience, though. I would also like to add those trainers (more direct) have usually turned out the best pupils and become the most popular (for those that can handle it ). Go figure!



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov. 3, 2004
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    2,088

    Default

    Oh, my, I have a picture in my profile. I just thought people would like to see my cute horse...I had NO IDEA I am an exhibitionist or have those kind of tendancies.

    I love to see other people's horses. And I love to see them riding their horse, no matter what discipline.

    Of course, I'm not asking for opinions or critiques on my riding. I have my trainer and my very critical self for that.

    Well, the pictures been up quite a while. I am outed for the exhibitionist that I am and I am NOT taking it down.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2006
    Posts
    1,902

    Default

    will be admired by the masses.
    Well, I know that is my MAIN reason for doing dressage. Yesssss
    *** 4 More Years ***
    *** 4 More Years ***



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan. 12, 2000
    Location
    Proud owner of one Lunar acre! (Campanus Crater, The Moon)
    Posts
    14,015

    Default

    First, are you sure it was because of what YOU said that it was removed?

    Second, did you post the "joke" you have in your OP?

    Third, since you are the one who posted the reply and not the judge (which is what you said in your OP), then they have no reason to think your comments were of value. If the judge had posted them, using their real name and that name was known and respected by the person putting up the video, then it might have some value to them. People have to know you from a hole in the ground to accept criticism--especially if it has jokes in it that might seem mean spirited to them.



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul. 12, 2006
    Posts
    1,902

    Default

    And anyway, I was thinking that one MUST have a little bit of exhibitionist in them to want to go out and "perform" in front of other people. You really do need that "HEY, look at me and my beast - watch what we can do" attitude. JMHO

    Watching Robert Dover in a symposium video - Something to the effect that when you enter the ring, you WANT the masses to be watching you.
    *** 4 More Years ***
    *** 4 More Years ***



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr. 9, 2006
    Posts
    216

    Default

    There's nothing "exhibitionist" about posting videos on youtube. It's just a different medium. I could maybe understand that criticism if it didn't come from someone posting random pictures of herself in leggings on the Internet for all and sundry to see. (I do have therapist suggestions if this is a problem you'd like to work on.)

    I agree with Velvet: there's no way for the recipient of the critique to have known it was from someone with expertise or not. No doubt the person who posted the video received more than one less-than-tactful comment (and it may be a language thing, HD, but sometimes you do come across in an unkind way--as you did in the first post here. Granted, I have no room to talk). I wouldn't interpret it as someone not wanting to learn, but rather, just someone who wasn't prepared for the response they got. It's a very human reaction. Not some indication that non-Europeans suck at life (or at least riding).

    If her trainer does not think it a problem, why would you expect the rider to accept an anonymous Internet person's advice?



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    1,670

    Default Just let me go through some points

    The worlds biggest equestrian bulletin board is BOKT, and also at this forum you find a lot of links to rides from posters, Germany also have some BB's where you can find some stuff, Belgium has a few etc...etc...

    When I watch these video's I noticed very often that the US-riders ride their horses in a very long frame, without any collection. This is imho the reason that so many exercises which need collection are going wrong. Again....... I am not talking about training-level or level I riders, but somewhere along the line you have to ask collection from your horse if you want to move up the levels.

    Many people on this forum understand exactly what I mean about being harsh, and many people understand that this is the only way to reach the top. Did you ever listen to the toptrainers when they work with their students at home. (no not the public clinics). I know many riders who are now at the top who where extra motivated by their trainers when he said something to their students like "I hope you don't think that you ever can earn money with the way you ride your horse". Believe me; when trainers make the efford to shout and get mad at you, they see something good laying ahead for you in your dressage-carreer.

    And YES training over here is not a chat around the coffee-table, it is mostly (certainly for the lower level riders) "it's my way or the high way".

    To answer another question, Yes there is a lot of differences between Belgium and Dutch people, also and even in the dressage-world. Belgium people are much more introvert, but also much more easy going than the Dutch people. The most important thing is that in Belgium I never saw a rider or trainer go to the judges and ask for an explanation for a certain score, while in Holland this is very normal, sometimes you don't even have to ask for it, because the judge is coming to your table and tells you why he or she gave his or her score for a certain movement.

    Furthermore I am not a diplomat and don't have plans to hold back my comments or polish them in a way that everybody likes it. I am not running for the White House !

    Theo



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2006
    Posts
    169

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shiaway View Post
    Theo,
    you spend way too much time thinking about how we americans stink compared to your country/europe. Get outside, breath. Enjoy living and riding where you are. We all can't be perfect.
    What she said.



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