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  1. #361
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    neatly trimmed beard.
    never underestimate the credibility of a neatly trimmed beard. Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards? are they related to religious figures?



  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiona View Post
    never underestimate the credibility of a neatly trimmed beard. Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards? are they related to religious figures?
    The closest religious connection to dressage that I can recall is Steffen Peters at the WEGS who under his breath screamed OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD as he halted at X and did his last salute



  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by fiona View Post
    never underestimate the credibility of a neatly trimmed beard. Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards? are they related to religious figures?
    ROFLOL. Many years ago rode with a very nice older gentleman who had taken up riding and dressage at age 60. He had a full grey beard (neatly trimmed!). At age 63 he was showing an "okay" 2nd level. (I guess he figured he'd go for it while he could. Got scores in the 56% to 61% range). Really nice guy. And, his horse's name..... wait for it..... was..... MOSES.* ROFLOL












    *Actually an Appendix QH named "Ain't No Mo," but he showed it as "Moses."



  4. #364
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    Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards?
    One of my important upper level dressage friends told me that slc sports a beard.



  5. #365
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    Talking of which are there any dressage riders with beards?
    I saw some women with mustaches at the USDF convention, but they didn't have beards. May not have been riders anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mozart View Post
    The closest religious connection to dressage that I can recall is Steffen Peters at the WEGS who under his breath screamed OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD as he halted at X and did his last salute
    Yes ... YES YESSSSS!!!!!
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."



  6. #366
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    Default Disclaimer--I haven't finished reading the thread...

    I'm on about page 13...Yikes, don't check the board for day or so....

    Quote Originally Posted by kkj View Post
    (just ask a very good lameness vet who treats all the soft tissue and hock issues on these horses before they are 6)
    This kind of thing KILLS me. There is actual, fact based, blinded STUDY information that work for young (they were 18-24 months in this study) increases bone and ligament density. There are ZERO (repeat after me) ZERO studies that say if you ride a horse at 3 he will need hock injections at age 6.

    I am a vet. I'm actually a good one. I would recommend to many clients to start the horse when it's appropriate for THEIR horse--sometimes at GASP, 2 or 3 years old.

    I have worked on a lot of OTTBs. Many people have them recycled into hunters, jumpers, dressage. I've even owned a few of these myself. They get worked HARD young. How many of them need injections or other high maintenance upkeep at 6, 7, 8, or even 10? I would say far less than you nay-sayers would guess. Certainly 25% or less. Hardly a good arguement for your case.

    Oh, and I broke my horse at 2. Three days a week for a month, walk, trot. Even showed him once at Intro (and won). Then he had about a year off in the field. Schooling changes, solid second level now at age 6 (and 1/2). Not a spec of arthritis in sight. And if/when he develops some, we'll go from there. Won't regret anything.
    From now on, ponyfixer, i'll include foot note references.



  7. #367
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    that's all very well but do you have or know of anyone riding dressage whilst sporting a beard?

    I believe technically speaking slc's (alleged) beard doesn't count as it's daliesque as opposed to classical and fake being made wholly of grass.



  8. #368
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    OMG, you guys are too funny...

    Speaking of beards... I amost spit my coffee out, since i was joking amongst friends about/to my stright dressage riding male friend, saying that he had yet to prove he was stright. And he said what about all my girlfriends? And my other friend said they were just beards (cover ups)!!! LOL, and that's all I can think of reading those posts!
    ---------------------------

    ~Once you have ridden the tiger it is impossible to dismount~



  9. #369
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    santa' s sporting a goatee this yr and Mrs santa has one under each arm

    but we digress!

    PS I think the dearly departed Sabine's SO rides dressage with a hairy face,



  10. #370
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    Jan. 31, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Fixer View Post
    I'm on about page 13...Yikes, don't check the board for day or so....



    This kind of thing KILLS me. There is actual, fact based, blinded STUDY information that work for young (they were 18-24 months in this study) increases bone and ligament density. There are ZERO (repeat after me) ZERO studies that say if you ride a horse at 3 he will need hock injections at age 6.

    I am a vet. I'm actually a good one. I would recommend to many clients to start the horse when it's appropriate for THEIR horse--sometimes at GASP, 2 or 3 years old.

    I have worked on a lot of OTTBs. Many people have them recycled into hunters, jumpers, dressage. I've even owned a few of these myself. They get worked HARD young. How many of them need injections or other high maintenance upkeep at 6, 7, 8, or even 10? I would say far less than you nay-sayers would guess. Certainly 25% or less. Hardly a good arguement for your case.

    Oh, and I broke my horse at 2. Three days a week for a month, walk, trot. Even showed him once at Intro (and won). Then he had about a year off in the field. Schooling changes, solid second level now at age 6 (and 1/2). Not a spec of arthritis in sight. And if/when he develops some, we'll go from there. Won't regret anything.
    Ponyfixer, I don't think the way you started your horse at 2 is likely to hurt him- walk, trot three times a week and then turned out in a field. That seems very reasonable to me. If the horse is ready for it at that age and the person is responsible enough not to push it then fine.

    I am not a vet but I will assert that good sane vets can disagree on this. A vet at UC Davis told me that from autopsys done, 70% or better of horses off the track have some chronic back issues. Riding them like that at 2 very often has consequences although the average OTTB owner may not realize the horse is compromised in some way. I have been around a little and it seems 1/2 the people with lame horses either don't know or don't care but regardless keep riding them anyway.



    Moreover, I do not assert if you ride your horse at 3, it will need hock injections at 6. However, if you sit on your horse at 3 and make it go in a tight frame or push it to be ready for the 4 year old FEI tests, it may very well. Dressage is hard on the horses hind end. I believe hind suspensories are the most common dressage injury. This is not the case with jumping or eventing or racing or western pleasure. Also the stifles and back are late to develop. They are not strong at 3. Regardless of how great the conformation is, if the muscles are not there yet the joints can take the brunt of it. There may not be actually studies to back it up, but that does not make it untrue. I personally know several dressage horses with synovitis at 4 or 5 and hock injections at 5 or 6. I spent a lot of years in the hunter jumper world and those horses did not get hock injections until later. Bottom line serious dressage is harder on the hind end than cantering around on the forehand and jumping a few jumps.

    I do agree that exercise is good for young horses. My horse grew up in a large field and got plenty of exercise. She was started at 3. She has clean xrays and is sound. Exercising the young horses, I am sure that would make them stronger. However, we are not talking about riding them in a tight frame, sitting on them and pushing them to be ready for showing at 3.



  11. #371
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    KKJ,

    What you don't realize is that if you own a warmblood, it's likely that its sire, great sire, great, great sire was sat on in a tight frame at 3 !!!!
    The way, the inspections are run, has been like that for decades and it doesn't mean that all horses are lame when they are older.

    One more time, I will repeat THIS IS A SHOW, THEY DON'T RIDE THIS HORSE LIKE THIS ON EVERYDAY BASIS.

    This is not a schooling video, this is just a stallion inspection.

    That would be like watching the Rolex on TV and saying, They shouldn't jump their horses over cross country courses like this everyday because it's bad for their joints and for them ... No kidding .

    And about the fight about War and Carroussel roots. Two Simple, you're right. Quaterback is not a good example of horse that would be useful to fight in Iraq, therefore they should stop trying to do dressage with him !

    When is the last time, horses were used and trained for war ? Do you really think that Freestyle at the Olympics has anything to do with demonstrating that a horse is suitable for battles ? Because if it's what they are looking for, let me tell you that they failed.



  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Fixer View Post
    I'm on about page 13...Yikes, don't check the board for day or so....



    This kind of thing KILLS me. There is actual, fact based, blinded STUDY information that work for young (they were 18-24 months in this study) increases bone and ligament density. There are ZERO (repeat after me) ZERO studies that say if you ride a horse at 3 he will need hock injections at age 6.

    I am a vet. I'm actually a good one. I would recommend to many clients to start the horse when it's appropriate for THEIR horse--sometimes at GASP, 2 or 3 years old.

    I have worked on a lot of OTTBs. Many people have them recycled into hunters, jumpers, dressage. I've even owned a few of these myself. They get worked HARD young. How many of them need injections or other high maintenance upkeep at 6, 7, 8, or even 10? I would say far less than you nay-sayers would guess. Certainly 25% or less. Hardly a good arguement for your case.

    Oh, and I broke my horse at 2. Three days a week for a month, walk, trot. Even showed him once at Intro (and won). Then he had about a year off in the field. Schooling changes, solid second level now at age 6 (and 1/2). Not a spec of arthritis in sight. And if/when he develops some, we'll go from there. Won't regret anything.

    You, PonyFixer, are my new hero!! I loff you forever and ever. It ALL depends on the horse first, then the amount of work, the size of rider etc....in other words it takes a true horseman (horsewoman) to know when to start that particular individual. Not one size fits all.
    http://community.webshots.com/album/548368465RfewoU[/url]

    She may not have changed the stars from their courses, but she loved a good man, and she rode good horses….author unknown



  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pony Fixer View Post
    This kind of thing KILLS me. There is actual, fact based, blinded STUDY information that work for young (they were 18-24 months in this study) increases bone and ligament density. There are ZERO (repeat after me) ZERO studies that say if you ride a horse at 3 he will need hock injections at age 6.
    I would be very interested to get a copy of this study. Can you tell me the group that conducted it, and where I might get copies? Thanks!



  14. #374
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    Jun. 4, 2002
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    Here is something a bit more scientific for those who advocate that working a horse this age like this is OK. I am almost certain the studies that Pony Fixer is talking about were done on race horses and discussed building bone density and did not really focus on the latest part of the horse to mature...their spine and backs....and was not really about sport horses in general or horses asked to work like dressage horses are.

    http://www.equinestudies.org/knowledge_base/ranger.html



  15. #375
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    Mar. 12, 2006
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    Wow, I was gone to the USDF Convention for a few days and this thread has really grown! So I have patiently read through them all and now feel compelled to add my $.02 worth

    I'm very surprised that so many people are so convinced that riding this young stallion "this way" is going to ruin him. This is a "dressage" horse from several generations of "dressage" horses. He is bred to move this way. He is built to move this way easily. He is bred for "rideability". He has not needed a ton of training to look like this. HE IS DOING WHAT COMES NATURALLY FOR HIM.

    If you were to take a 3 year old stock horse and ride it in this frame, yes, you would be asking too much. Just like if you asked Quaterman to cut cattle, that would be very hard for him.

    Quaterman travels wide behind because he has so much movement. Almost any young horse with a lot of up and forward movement is going to travel wide behind, UNTIL they develop more strength and balance. The traveling wide behind actually proves that Quaterman HASN'T had a lot of training.
    It seems like many "Americans" have taken the "slow" approach to the other extreme. Ride them low and on the forehand for 5 or 6 years then wonder why the horse struggles with self carriage and collection.

    As I said in my earlier post, this is what serious sport horse breeders are breeding for. It is NOT a crime to bring young horses along, within their abilities, quickly. The FEI Young Horse Tests are very appropiate for the age groups, for the HORSES THAT THESE TESTS WERE DEVELOPED FOR!



  16. #376
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    Nov. 1, 2001
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    Default Benefits of work for bone and soft tissue development

    Horses, like humans, develop bone density and soft tissue condition by weight bearing exercise. Horses need weight bearing work and concussion for proper muscular and skeletal development. That being said, the studies that I believe you guys are referring to was done to determine the benefits of turn out, not work under saddle. If I recall correctly, the conclusions weren't surprising. Some exercise ie turn out aka weight bearing working is necessary for proper development, too much is harmful. The studies didn't address work under saddle.

    I have read all the Deb Bennett stuff about horses being mature at 6 and I don't disagree with that. But I do disagree that if you don't wait to ride until the horse is completely mature (all growth plates are closed) you are jepordizing its health. This is the same as saying children should be involved in competitive sports until they are in their late teens or early 20s. With horses, as with children, moderate exercise with appropriate supervision can be a good thing.

    In the video, Quaterback looks like a very talented teenage athlete. Not perfect, not mature but obviously into his game. I don't see him working particularly hard anywhere. And given his obvious talent, it doesn't look like anything inappropriate is being asked him.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  17. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Two Simple View Post
    I would be very interested to get a copy of this study. Can you tell me the group that conducted it, and where I might get copies? Thanks!

    If you do a Medline search you can find it- actually, I believe there are several journal articles on this as I pointed out earlier.



  18. #378
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    there have been studies of workouts increasing bone density, as well as studies of concussive sessions increasing bone density.



  19. #379
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    Default When "backing" my boy at a couple months under 3 years of age

    Quote Originally Posted by NoDQhere View Post
    Wow, I was gone to the USDF Convention for a few days and this thread has really grown! So I have patiently read through them all and now feel compelled to add my $.02 worth

    I'm very surprised that so many people are so convinced that riding this young stallion "this way" is going to ruin him. This is a "dressage" horse from several generations of "dressage" horses. He is bred to move this way. He is built to move this way easily. He is bred for "rideability". He has not needed a ton of training to look like this. HE IS DOING WHAT COMES NATURALLY FOR HIM.

    If you were to take a 3 year old stock horse and ride it in this frame, yes, you would be asking too much. Just like if you asked Quaterman to cut cattle, that would be very hard for him.

    Quaterman travels wide behind because he has so much movement. Almost any young horse with a lot of up and forward movement is going to travel wide behind, UNTIL they develop more strength and balance. The traveling wide behind actually proves that Quaterman HASN'T had a lot of training.
    It seems like many "Americans" have taken the "slow" approach to the other extreme. Ride them low and on the forehand for 5 or 6 years then wonder why the horse struggles with self carriage and collection.

    As I said in my earlier post, this is what serious sport horse breeders are breeding for. It is NOT a crime to bring young horses along, within their abilities, quickly. The FEI Young Horse Tests are very appropiate for the age groups, for the HORSES THAT THESE TESTS WERE DEVELOPED FOR!
    I must agree with parts of this. My stallion, we started the year of his 3rd birthday....he was not "officially" 3 for 4 more months, but you would never know that he was so green!! He had a severe injury to his back/spine when he was 18 months old----so, excersize was important as he was growing to keep him remotely sound and comfortable. I handled him well, but lightly and smartly the year of his 2nd birthday. I made sure he was educated to the saddle, to the sir single and side riens. Taught him lots of stretching movements from the ground, he went on lots lots lots of "pony" rides (being led off another horse on the trail.) Handled daily and when it came to riding him, it was just like it was just another day---except now I'm sitting on him. I also had my trainer with me when I backed him on his 3rd year--because I wanted to be the first on him. He was outstanding---he was so light in the bridle and yet, super collected!! At this time, I had NEVER EVER got on a horse that wanted to be round by just touching the riens! He was so light on my leg, very forward and if someone would of video taped our first ride----it would of looked like he was undersaddle around 2-3 months--except with a rider who was BEAMING--all smiles!! After a week--- I was "playing" with him. (with out my trainers supervision---and against better judgement) but, he had everything inside him--- (movements)--- I just had to ask!!! He always was naturally rythmic, forward, round and just tried ANYTHING you asked. Including half passes, (all gaits), extentions, more collection-----He had me in tears because I was so amazed and felt he was a true GIFT!!! NOW.....did we push him? NO. He was wanting to be round, forward---it was more like we were guiding him----not training him. For the first year, rides were SHORT--- around 15-20 min and rode him around 3-4 times a week with half the ride on the buckle for such good behavior. His daughter that I ride now---same way, it really makes starting them seem like your cheating. So, with this kind of a horse---which to me this guy looks like that).....it comes naturally---- like a labrador to retrieving.
    *Better to have loved than to have never loved at all.*
    ALWAYS Blessings NEVER losses.



  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoDQhere View Post

    If you were to take a 3 year old stock horse and ride it in this frame, yes, you would be asking too much. Just like if you asked Quaterman to cut cattle, that would be very hard for him.
    So its okay to ride a 3 year old hard if you are riding him in the discipline he was bread for?? Ooooooh-kay.



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