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  1. #41
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    I find it odd that most of you can only accept one point of view and you want to ban people that don't find rollkur respectful of the HORSE!!
    I find it odd that people assume those of us who are against a layperson assuming the role of a qualified veterinary surgeon and want to see participants in the sport treated within the principles of basic justice are "for" or "against" any particular training method.



  2. #42
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    I find it odd that most of you can only accept one point of view and you want to ban people that don't find rollkur respectful of the HORSE!! Talk about respect- how about respecting the horse that has to carry these disrespectful riders around?

    I find nothing disrespectful in asking about learned helplessness. That is disrespectful?? How about actually answering the question?

    Groupies...that describes it.

    SMUT from Waz?? No, smut is preventing a horse from seeing where he is going.
    This is precisely the type of attack mentality, irrationality, and agression that is such a turn off. Don't you think you could have posed all of your questions in a more reasonable and less aggressive manner? Not to mention that there are so many flaws in your logic that a reasonable person might well decide it's not worth discussing serious matters with you anyhow, as your post could easily make you appear too unreasonable to maturely participate in the conversation.



  3. #43
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    Luv T Ryd, have you even read the WAZ letter?

    I find it to be nothing more than the same old emotional rhetoric and grandstanding, combined with malicious false claims such as "horses are being run into the ground at the cost of their health" and a shameless plug for Xenophon. I am sticking with my original assessment that this letter is intended purely to stir up controversy, and as such, I do not approve.

    I prefer facts, thank you. THIS is the reason I don't like Astrid's nor Birgit's reporting and THIS is why I don't like the WAZ letter.

    Who are we groupies for, by the way? Are you accusing us of being groupies for Eurobreederstour, for preferring her coverage of the GDF over Astrid's?



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luv T Ryd View Post
    I find it odd that most of you can only accept one point of view and you want to ban people that don't find rollkur respectful of the HORSE!! Talk about respect- how about respecting the horse that has to carry these disrespectful riders around?

    I find nothing disrespectful in asking about learned helplessness. That is disrespectful?? How about actually answering the question?

    Groupies...that describes it.

    SMUT from Waz?? No, smut is preventing a horse from seeing where he is going.
    you sound like you wandered over from that other board- where people actually do get banned because they don't agree with the party line- hello- this is a very democratic board with a basic request for respectful interaction...something really not too complicated to comprehend.

    Astrid has had another issue like this in her comments about the Devon show and a GP rider there- it might be language related but I am thinking it might be more intonation of the actual question- which gives away in itself a lot of attitude and expectation on the potential answer. Culturally this is not well digested in the US. I say this with confidence- because I am Euopean, have lived in Germany and France, but am also American and have lived here for a long time. Our sensitivity to intonation- especially during a Q&A period during an 'official event' is a tad higher than most europeans.

    Birgit- that's another story- one I do not want to discuss here. Nonetheless- let's not digress into yucky RK discussion here- and please feel free to find a more 'matching' fellowship on the 'other board'....

    WAZ comments were those of a let's call him 'beloved' but 'slightly out of touch' old man...he still deserves a world of respect- but maybe doesn't have the main beat quite under control anymore...dressagewise I mean...:LOL!
    And sadly- it makes it harder for me to respect him- if he feels he needs to go into the ring with what is currently being ridden and trained. I think the major active trainers and riders, like HS should speak- they have the say now- they are at the pinnacle...WAZ is retired in my book.

    Sorry to be so honest...



  5. #45
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    Jun. 19, 2005
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    Just wanted to let you know that I found out that Sjef and Kyra did not continue the discussion of the training when he went over to talk to her.

    Hopefully there will be a future venue where we can get them and maybe people like Hubertus Schmidt together.
    Last edited by Eurobreederstour; Nov. 4, 2006 at 10:12 AM.



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luv T Ryd View Post
    I find it odd that most of you can only accept one point of view and you want to ban people that don't find rollkur respectful of the HORSE!! Talk about respect- how about respecting the horse that has to carry these disrespectful riders around?

    I find nothing disrespectful in asking about learned helplessness. That is disrespectful?? How about actually answering the question?

    Groupies...that describes it.

    SMUT from Waz?? No, smut is preventing a horse from seeing where he is going.
    Are you telling me that if someone walked up to you and asked you if roping and beating your horse into total surrender was a normal part of your training philosophy that you would actually dignify that question with a response?

    The question was in fact relayed to the top behavioral scientist in the world and the answer was a resounding NO.

    Over 12 top scientists and veterinarians from all over the world spent a year studying the structural biomechanics of what the different neck positions including hyperflexion do to the movement and body of the horse out of respect for the horse. Did they find that hyperflexion structurally damages or inhibits the horse? Again the answer was a resounding NO. As a matter of fact they found it does the most good concerning the elasticity of the back and increasing the range of motion of the limbs.

    Is Anky forcing hyperflexion on her horse which is yet another assumption more than implied in the accusation of abuse? I'll simply refer to one of the most respected researchers of biomechanics, Dr. Hilary Clayton. The answer was again a resounding NO.

    A study is now being put together by Dr. McLean to study the stress levels of the horse during training. We will then have a more defining and scientific response to the question of whether or not the horse is unhappy "not being able to see where he's going". In the meantime I think we can defer to top judges and trainers that see Anky's horse as being "a happy horse willing to do his work". An observation also made by Dr. McLean.

    As for the groupie comment you have no idea how I, nor most likely anyone else on this post feels about hyperflexion as a training tool. I suggest you think about what you are going to write before jumping to such ridiculous conclusions. Listening carefully to scientists, leading trainers and judges in the sport is hardly being a "groupie". I would only challenge you to open your mind and eye to what you have clearly already judged and discarded with no critical evaluation.



  7. #47
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    Mar. 25, 2002
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    Eurobreeders- you have a PM regarding getting Hubertus.



  8. #48
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    For those who are interested: I suggest you all get "Open Wounds" (soon to be out in english, available in german) written by a veterinary surgeon who spent 12 years doing research on the subject(Gerd Haushman). As well as Philippe Karls new book, and Anje Berans "In Deference", and Nancy Nicholsens "Anatomy". (They must 'clearly out of touch' young people who observe the entire body of the horse and effects upon it. Guess Wahl (retired head of the srs) is also out of touch.)

    An interesting effect of any overflexion is that the hand can create over a ton of pressure (based upon 120 rider on 1200 pound horse) on a 1/4" vertebral area according to studies. And with the mouth strapped shut, it is even stronger. Anyone wonder about the lack of chewing, a keynote of a relaxed horse?

    And just a question: was the horse shown in the GDF just taken down or laterally as well? To the riders toes repeatedly? Kicked when he (tried to) came up? And for how long (an hour/two/in piaffe)? (That is the part of operant conditioning isnt often revealed in public situations any more). Was the fact that the nuchal ligament is usually staying on one side throughout the ride(s) addressed?

    And the most underlying questions: what is it that cannot be done more easily in a traditional way which allows more progressive operant conditioning? And why does everyone line up copy the idea of someone who rode three years when starting his method? Feeling the flames now.....
    I.D.E.A. yoda



  9. #49
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    "Open Wounds" by a veterinary sugeon..

    So I guess this will be a treatise on the best techniques for suturing and treating open wounds of horses.
    How very interesting!



  10. #50
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    Wow. I just read the Eurodressage report. Quite the angle on things.

    By no stretch of the imagination was the jury of judges "awestruck" by Astrid's attack. They responded quite confidently and strongly that her assumption and attack was "totally unfair". Not only did Steven Clark explain the judges point of view that the horse was not lame and that this word was not even appropriate in the conversation, but Mrs. Withages also responded to Astrid's follow up question, "why did they pull her out of the competition?" with the answer that this is not their call. It is only up to them to judge the horse in the arena in front of them. They did score the uneven medium's down accordingly, and that was all their job was. Steven Clark also responded by saying he applauded the decision if they felt something was wrong with the horse to the point where riding her further would risk a real and damaging injury. And I also strongly contest the fact that Kyra Kyrkland and Anky applauded Astrid's questions/attack. No one did. You could have heard a pin drop in the place when that discussion was finished.

    Another thing I would strongly disagree with was the statement that "Matine's poor trot work was discussed". No one said anything about Matine's trot work being poor. There was one piaffe we looked at where she was losing her balance in her body and the judges gave her a 7 for it. It's clear the later piaffe's were better in my mind, but we didn't get past the first piaffe because of the time limit. The one passage we saw was given 9's and no collected trot work was even reviewed except for the half pass in which she was given 7's and 8's with the explanation that the tail swishing was taken into account. The general impression given by Mrs. Withages and Steven Clark is that this is a young horse that will definitely improve in time and could become even better.

    And only briefly and slightly did Satchmo come behind the vertical. It was noticed a bit in the extended trot, and the judges said that is why he got an 8 instead of a 9.

    Sjef also did in fact respond to a number of the questions. He said he wasn't going to repeat his entire lecture again to the Sankt George journalist, but her question was again far more of an attack than a question. She in fact was the one that at first refused to even give a response. Richard who was moderating explained to her that she was invited to be a member of the review panel so that we could hear her point of view and questions. Only then did she say she felt Anky was using a strong hand to force the horse into the hyperflexion (by the way, the term Roll Kuer was thrown out by the FEI as being confusing and misleading and it is recommended that this term not be used). Anky gave a good answer explaining that she isn't big and strong enough to do this and that doing so would go against her entire philosophy of having a horse in a light contact. At that point Dr. Clayton said that it was impossible to force a horse into that frame.

    The only "question" that Sjef blatenly refused to dignify was of course the "learned helplessness" shot.

    And I don't think it's fair to say that Hubertus Schmidt is not a member of the top German riders. He was there.

    I also don't agree that people were lulled to sleep by Dr. McLean's session. It clearly has large implications for the sport with regard to training and training techniques. If we don't truly understand the behavioral mechanics of the horse how can we even begin to discuss the implications of certain training techniques as opposed to others? As far as I'm concerned the work he's doing is the basis of everything we're doing and we would be well advised to pay attention.

    Can't wait to read her "detailed" report if this is any example.



  11. #51
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    Jun. 19, 2005
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    Ideayoda:
    Dr. Gerd Hueschmann was a member of the FEI workshop in January 2006 that concluded the hyperflexion of the neck does "no structural damage". I believe the statistics you are quoting have to do with his study of the use of draw reins, not just a normal bridle. No one is advocating draw reins due to the extensive skeletal damage they can do. Not to mention that they only help strengthen the resistive muscles. I saw Dr. Heuschmann's lecture on the subject at the 2002 GDF. It was very good.

    Anky's horse was chewing quite well. She also did not bend the horse laterally very much at all in this case, and when she did it was for a very brief moment. She also changed direction quite often thus your comment about the nuchal ligament always being to one side is not applicable.



  12. #52
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    One thing Ideayoda just made me think of however, is a question that I don't think has been answered. The conclusions of the FEI workshop were that all positions of the neck including the hyperflexion should not be held for a prolonged period of time. One of the comments from the Sankt Georg author (sorry I can never remember her name) was that she felt that Anky kept the horse in this frame for longer than she felt they were claiming they did.

    So the question hat I think needs to be answered is "how long is too long?" I didn't time Anky, but my guess was that the horse was held in the hyperflexed position for maybe 3 to 5 minutes at a time before she either gave the reins allowing him to stretch down or out, and/or took a break letting him walk with his nose poked out.

    I'm sure Dr. Heuschmann must be considering this and I'd like to hear more from him since this study and workshop were done. Dr. Weeren did say that when they put the horses on the treadmill to take the measurements for the study that they were held in the position for about 10 minutes.



  13. #53
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda View Post
    And just a question: was the horse shown in the GDF just taken down or laterally as well? To the riders toes repeatedly? Kicked when he (tried to) came up? And for how long (an hour/two/in piaffe)? (That is the part of operant conditioning isnt often revealed in public situations any more). Was the fact that the nuchal ligament is usually staying on one side throughout the ride(s) addressed?

    ...
    just by asking this question- when full well knowing that this was a well planned event with a time table to be followed- you have disqualified yourself from a meaningful discussion and shown that you much rather discuss 2 hour tormentation of the horse...how sick!



  14. #54
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    a veterinary surgeon who spent 12 years doing research on the subject
    So that's ONE vet who has written a book, is touring the world promoting it whilst earning fees for lecturing and clinics, with a website and organisation tapping into a equine education and experience starved public. Please forgive me if i'm impressed by the marketing not the message.



  15. #55
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    And just a question: was the horse shown in the GDF just taken down or laterally as well? To the riders toes repeatedly? Kicked when he (tried to) came up? And for how long (an hour/two/in piaffe)? (That is the part of operant conditioning isnt often revealed in public situations any more). Was the fact that the nuchal ligament is usually staying on one side throughout the ride(s) addressed?
    Have you, yourself personally, seen this or is it hearsay and gossip?


    And the most underlying questions: what is it that cannot be done more easily in a traditional way which allows more progressive operant conditioning? And why does everyone line up copy the idea of someone who rode three years when starting his method? Feeling the flames now.....
    To answer your questions

    1. I don't know. You could ask Anky or Sjef.
    2. They don't.



  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurobreederstour View Post
    Ideayoda:
    Dr. Gerd Hueschmann was a member of the FEI workshop in January 2006 that concluded the hyperflexion of the neck does "no structural damage".
    Dr Heuschmann also sent a letter to the FEI regarding the "conclusion" (he didn't agree with the FEI take on what was concluded) which can be found at the FEI website somewhere.



  17. #57
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    Nov. 21, 2002
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    Since I don't have time to spend hours on the internet like some do, I now have a few minutes to spare to counter YOUR attacks. Do I care though that you attack? Not a bit. I never try to change the minds of people who are firmly in one camp. I only speak to let the mob mentality crowd realize that others do not agree with them. And there are also MANY likeminded who don't bother to give the other view because what is the point?? Still, I WILL interject when I feel like it- just so you know that not all fall for what passes as dressage training and riding on the international scene. Get over yourselves!

    1) If someone asked ME if I beat my horse as part of my training I WOULD answer. Why would I not? Being silent because one supposedly won't dignify the question is plain stupid. IF you don't beat your horse why not simply say NO!!!!! if you don't think you horse has been programmed for learned helplessness, say no. Is that really hard? Saying I won't answer is the childish way out.

    2) you are the people saying things like "ban" "smut" etc. It seems YOU are the irrational group, not I. It proves you cannot listen to another POV. It is not I (or Popp etc)that says YOU should be banned from speaking. Again, get over yourselves.

    3) I am a qualified, licensed veterinary nurse who has worked with excellent equine surgeons. So, blah on you. I know for a fact that veterinarians can differ markedly on how they view things or diagnose for that matter. Let's just say in vet medicine I probably am waaay more qualified than little ole you! You know, continuing ED and all that...

    4) I am free to "wander" over here any time I choose. Really WHAT are you afraid of?



  18. #58
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    Of course you are free to express your opinion and other people are free to disagree with you and also to comment on the tone of your delivery. We can do that here. Perhaps we are individuals with opinions of our own, not a mob. Consider that. I don't check with anyone else before I post what I think.

    I know, isn't it shocking that people are allowed to disagree here.



  19. #59
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    Fantastic report thanks (Better then i see in most magazines that right it up!)
    Qualified Saddle Fitter with the S.M.S.
    www.ravenwoodaussies.com



  20. #60
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    And PS, we are individuals .

    For example, I would not say anything against WAZ because I have a little soft spot for him.

    That does not mean I agree with everything he says, though. Respect is not the same as mindless adoration.

    It's possible to respect WAZ and Anky and Isabel and Klaus and so on without agreeing with everything they say and do.



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