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  1. #421
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    This thread isn't about me, it's about the GDF. What turned it about me was my response to someone who said we(me and someone) else were only interested in lifeless slugs with no energy (paraphrasing here) or some such nonsense. I was just pointing out that my leased horse has plenty of energy. That's all. MY point was that ANY horse can shy, spook, bolt. So, I am not really disagreeing with you that Sal bolted because of RK/HF.

    And to your question about how he would react to a stadium full of 60,000 screaming fans. Who knows? But I sure would like it.
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  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonja View Post
    indyblue wrote:


    I don’t attribute every flaw to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke but I do think a significant amount of the imbalance, distorted gaits, tension, false head sets, lack of throughness and lack of engagement that we see in the warm up arena and the competition performances can be attributed to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke.
    But how is that logically consistent when non rk'd horses display EXACTLY the same traits at times that you accuse horses like Salinero having. The anti rkers ALWAYS seem to ignore this question.

    For every perceived flaw that Salinero has (FWIW I think those perceived flaws are blown waaay out of proportion, the horse has a much improved overtrack in ext trot, halts have improved, is so very 'through' his half passes are breathtaking and has a suppleness second to none) I could cite a classically trained or non rk trained horse with the EXACT same issue.



  3. #423
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    Quote Originally Posted by nero View Post
    Ditto, of all the international riders and trainers I've seen she is one that has the most obvious compassion and affection for her horses.
    I have no doubt she cares for her horses as do many, many international riders and trainers, but I don't think that is really the way to look at this issue or the GDF. She does seem like a nice person and is probably an awsome mom. Heck, I bet she even gives to charities too! But the issue here is really wrapped around how someone trains their horses...

    Dalfan...I appreciate how you try to keep your sense of humor with some of the comments. I, for one, would be amused if I had an old schoolmaster who still had a bit of spunk in him -- and it would have nothing to do with zwankesjacke or classical training or whatever!
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  4. #424
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    nero wrote:
    Originally Posted by Tonja
    I don’t attribute every flaw to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke but I do think a significant amount of the imbalance, distorted gaits, tension, false head sets, lack of throughness and lack of engagement that we see in the warm up arena and the competition performances can be attributed to rollkur/hyperflexion/zwangsjacke.
    But how is that logically consistent when non rk'd horses display EXACTLY the same traits at times that you accuse horses like Salinero having. The anti rkers ALWAYS seem to ignore this question.

    For every perceived flaw that Salinero has (FWIW I think those perceived flaws are blown waaay out of proportion, the horse has a much improved overtrack in ext trot, halts have improved, is so very 'through' his half passes are breathtaking and has a suppleness second to none) I could cite a classically trained or non rk trained horse with the EXACT same issue.
    You may be able to find the flaws I mentioned in many non-rollkur trained horses but you will not find those flaws in a horse that is ridden in balance.



  5. #425
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    << You may be able to find the flaws I mentioned in many non-rollkur trained horses but you will not find those flaws in a horse that is ridden in balance.>>


    The only problem with the sentence above is that all REAL horses fall out of balance sometimes.

    No matter how they are trained.
    No matter who is sitting on them.

    The concept that any rider who has put in the hours to reach international FEI level does NOT understand that the twin basics of rhythm and balance are the foundation ..well such a concept is seriously flawed.

    in the real world, of course.



  6. #426
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    there was a really good video thread not that long ago, comparing AvG and Reiner Klimke -- the difference in tension and balance. I think probably both videos are still available on youtube.com

    Some of these comments are word games, what is the amount of tension and if it's suitable or incorrect. Same thing with a horse falling out of balance. A video helps clarify.

    MP: way back when on this thread you had a problem with me supporting the "biased" reporting of eurodressage. I referenced a direct quote as well as what someone reportedly said in a eurodressage article. Can there be a bias on a direct quote? Or is the bias problem you have more that the quote actually made it into print? Either way, I stand by my comment if it was not correctly quoted, or if words that were not said were reported, then eurodressage will be sued. Sued for big bucks -- someone can retire on it!!

    Also, just asking: any videos available on any of the demos at GDF? Even if they are pay-per-view? For educational purposes, which is what GDF is all about... Or do we have only still shots available?
    Last edited by sm; Dec. 5, 2006 at 11:44 AM.



  7. #427
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    canyonoak wrote:
    << You may be able to find the flaws I mentioned in many non-rollkur trained horses but you will not find those flaws in a horse that is ridden in balance.>>

    The only problem with the sentence above is that all REAL horses fall out of balance sometimes.

    No matter how they are trained.
    No matter who is sitting on them.
    Of course balanced horses can fall out of balance sometimes but generally, when a horse has been trained in balance, balance is characteristic of its performance. Conversely, when a horse has been consistently trained in a posture that undermines its balance, imbalance will be characteristic of its performance.



  8. #428
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    << Of course balanced horses can fall out of balance sometimes but generally, when a horse has been trained in balance, balance is characteristic of its performance. Conversely, when a horse has been consistently trained in a posture that undermines its balance, imbalance will be characteristic of its performance.>>

    Yes. That is why Salinero consistently scores high.

    because most of his work is produced in a balance that the O judges can see and appreciate.

    Ditto other horses getting high marks .

    Of course, if one STARTS with the concept that the judges are blind, prejudiced, know nothing, are corrupt--then all this conveniently goes out the window.



  9. #429
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    oh lordy, not judging

    Here's some results from 2006 GDF. MP, I'll give eurodressage a rest and reference http://www.britishdressage.co.uk/news.cfm?news_id=115

    "FEI Dressage Committee chairman Mariette Withages reviewed the judging of the 2006 World Games. The grand prix special tests of Mexico’s Bernadette Pujals, Denmark’s Andreas Helgstrand and Germany’s Isabell Werth were analysed, which raised many points of discussion, with the audience not always agreeing with the judges, despite explanations from the relevant judges."

    There was also a discussion at 2006 GDF if Brentina got the points she deserved or if she was unsound at the time and rated too high. That charge leveled by a journalist. Discussion was inconclusive, "The American delegation of spectators and journalists at the forum did not agree with the journalist’s standpoint, but international riders such as Kyra Kyrklund and Anky van Grunsven applauded her comment." Hey there MP, here's the source: http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/...6gdf/rep6.html



  10. #430
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    canyonoak wrote:
    << Of course balanced horses can fall out of balance sometimes but generally, when a horse has been trained in balance, balance is characteristic of its performance. Conversely, when a horse has been consistently trained in a posture that undermines its balance, imbalance will be characteristic of its performance.>>
    Yes. That is why Salinero consistently scores high.

    because most of his work is produced in a balance that the O judges can see and appreciate.

    Ditto other horses getting high marks .

    Of course, if one STARTS with the concept that the judges are blind, prejudiced, know nothing, are corrupt--then all this conveniently goes out the window.
    You can go by the judge’s scores, if you like. I go by the degree of balance I see in the performance. To each his own.



  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm View Post
    MP: way back when on this thread you had a problem with me supporting the "biased" reporting of eurodressage. I referenced a direct quote as well as what someone reportedly said in a eurodressage article. Can there be a bias on a direct quote? Or is the bias problem you have more that the quote actually made it into print?
    My problem is not with eurodressage, what kind of reporting you support or whatever quote you're referring to. You implied that professional journalist = lack of bias. That simply is not true.
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  12. #432
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    hi MP, well you did create way too many wrong assumptions about me in your post 392.

    If I wanted to write all professional journalists are unbiased, I would have... LOL.



  13. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm View Post
    hi MP, well you did create way too many wrong assumptions about me in your post 392.

    If I wanted to write all professional journalists are unbiased, I would have... LOL.
    No, you didn't write it. You but you did imply it.
    Quote Originally Posted by sm View Post
    an article for eurodressage is professionally written. cleared legal, and not the same as simply 'as one person's perspective.
    And I didn't "create" any assumptions in my post. I asked you questions
    Are you investigating the marketing claims because you might want to attend next year? Or are you going for the Ralph Nader Award for consumer protection in dressage forums?
    that you didn't bother to answer. And since you feel that anyone associated with the GDF should hop right to it and answer yours, I find rather hypocritical.
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  14. #434
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    MP, you asked me questions based on your assumptions. They certianly weren't questions based on logic. Had you read an earlier post of mine, you would know exactly where I was coming from, so I did already answer your questions:

    - on post 325 you have your answer
    - and you posted on 327, so you missed my answer?

    Again, you're assuming a lot and reaching for conclusions not based in fact. Just try to read what I wrote without adding your spin.

    And based on above 446 and your response, "You but you did imply it, " you conclude I feel all professional journalists are unbiased?? Just try to read what I wrote without adding your spin.



  15. #435
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    Have any of you seen the warmup video of Dutch Championships 2004 (sorry, corrected) (titled hyperflexion) posted on UDBB? What do you think, for those who think there is nothing wrong with RK/HF?

    My opinion; That's got to be some of the ugliest riding I've seen in a while. Just F***king GROSS.

    Here's the link, although not sure if it will workhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YODFS...elated&search=
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  16. #436
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    LOL, not another one. I'm afraid to look at it if it's that gross...



  17. #437
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    Quote Originally Posted by sm View Post
    And based on above 446 and your response, "You but you did imply it, " you conclude I feel all professional journalists are unbiased??
    No, I meant you implied a professional journalist's writings are somehow less biased "than one person's perspective," which is puzzling because that's what a journalistic account is.

    Helpful hint -- "yes" or "no" is a good way to answer questions.
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  18. #438
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    " 'yes' or 'no' is a good way to answer questions."

    Well, maybe you wouldn't distort and put your spin on my "yes" or "no" answer but I wouldn't put money on it



  19. #439
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    The Monty Roberts deal is the only thing that errks me!
    I guess that is all his years of dressage expert work that leads him to make the assumstions he does.
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  20. #440
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    I find it very sad the GDF is making such a joke of itself. People used to agree Dressage was all about subtle communication between horse and rider. Means to result in an ideal picture where aids are applied as lightly as to be near invisible.
    Let me just say that this ideal picture got lost somewhere between the old days and now and all of a sudden it's those who remind of what was once considered desirable who are accused of creating a witch hunt... Very sad for the sport that it has so little to do with what riding is about these days.
    I mean how much more incommunicado can a horse and rider pair get than what broke out of poor Salinero during that revealing award ceremony?
    As for him behaving super on the show grounds in hand - well no wonder he is at peace once he is finally released from his treadmill sentence *LOL*
    Funnily the eventer guys don't seem to be half as troubled during award ceremonies at any level. Must be because the modern dressage horse is so rich in TB-blood much unlike those big old clunkers that do well during x-country courses and award ceremonies. Get real people. Today's competitive dressage is a mess no matter where you turn to.
    And do you honestly think a horse like Chronos had a calmer temperament than Salinero to begin with???
    As a vet, rider and breeder I can only spit out and turn away from what's called dressage these days.
    Does it amaze me why natural horsemanship-gurus are popping up left right and center over the past years? No because if this is the level of communication achieved by a method someone has the chuzpe to refer to as training technique (?!) than it is no wonder that horselovers around the world are looking for alternatives.

    It's too bad the manuals only kept the riding parts of the HDV12 and skipped all the rest that is about how to get the horse ready for the kind of work it is one day going to be asked for in the dressage ring.

    Not taking off with your rider under any circumstances comes a few steps before doing a canter pirouette. So it again comes down to the 'modern training method' being merely an attempted shortcut to achieve what unfortunately requires years of hard work to truly grow.
    Likewise a riding session doesn't start with rising trot but with getting your horse out and groom and tack up properly.

    This entire route dressage has taken to me seems to be symptomatic of what goes on in the professional world: It is no longer fashionable to be an honest solid worker type and learn a craft. Today any idiot wants to either have a top-management position (and expects it!) or at least be a call-center agent vs. physically working. I think this development began back when Nicole Uphoff became the youngest olympic dressage champion ever and was celebrated as if she had re-invented the wheel for being just what - young?? How much of a craze is that... And yes the equestrian media is a big part of it I agree.

    Two things to consider: Equestrians are becoming more and more estranged from the general public by constantly showing off this kind of I-know-better-than-you attitude. Here in Europe the equestrian community is still fairly well integrated into public. Non-riding people come to watch even smaller shows and our riding, breeding and sales events are social happenings politicians are making sure to be seen at because many symphathize with the equestrian world.
    I don't feel you have this level of integration in the US and I'd rather see that change than us Europeans losing the credit we have with the public. Part of my approach to avoiding this is to make very sure I make sense to non-equestrian folks in the way I ride and handle my horses and to be very open and communicative towards anybody who comes with questions.
    Anyone who thinks it is beyond themselves to answer a question they consider ignorant or rude is no less ignorant or rude themselves in my way of thinking and doesn't serve any discussion but merely displays a great deal of arrogance.



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