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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan. 14, 2003
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    Massachusetts
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    Default Jingles needed..mare got into the grain.

    What a horrible day it has been. I have a mare on my property that does not belong to me. The owners are very nice people clueless about horses. Their teenage daughters "trainer" found these people this nice 3 y.o., untrained mare for their teenage daughter (whole different thread). This morning the mare bumped into the door hard enough to push a board out and dislodge the latch. She uses her stall as a run in and she ran into the stall and hit the door. She didn't have a scratch on her. I don't have bars on my stalls, so she can bump the wall with her chest because her head can go into the aisle. I just moved into this property and figured I wouldn't need bars until I had a second horse on the property but I was sure wrong on that one. I went to toss her some hay around noontime and she was standing in the aisle and I noticed almost right away that she had polished off the grain. I just dumped a new bag over the weekend, so there was about 40 pounds left and she ate it all.

    If this isn't bad enough, I can't get the vet that I have known for almost 30 years to come out. She was tied up for the afternoon and was unable to reach her partner so I was basically S.O.L. She also has never seen this horse and the owner is not one of her clients but I am still suprised that she wouldn't come for something that was clearly an emergency.

    So, I found another vet who was here in under an hour. The problem with this one? She is afraid of horses. Yes -afraid. We went to give the mare a shot of banamine and the mare gave us a bit of trouble but I've have seen much worse and certainly wasn't afraid of being hurt by her (no more that usual, anyway...) The vet didn't want to tube her because she didn't think she would get a tube down her, so she basically left me with 12 ml of Banamine and said to walk her. She also suggested pouring mineral oil into her water - I figure al that will do is discourage her from drinking...I've never heard of such an idea...

    well, I have walked the better part of the last 8 hours. The mare is bloated and uncomfortable. She is passing manure regurlarly and is very gassy. I'm very scared about the fact that this mare has not had a good dose of mineral oil. I can't even think about founder yet, although I think it will be a miracle if she doesn't founder. So far, so good..no pulses or heat but it has only been 8 hours.

    So, I called back the vet that came out and she came right out and basically told me that she wouldn't come tube her because she was afraid of getting hurt. I had just given a shot of Banamine, by myself. Yes, she is a little witchy but I twitched her and gave the shot without much ado. I tried the first vet and an hour and a half later, she has not even returned my call - which is shocking to me - even if she called to say that she can't make it and the horse needs to go o Tufts. I called the other vet, the one who came out and she said that if I couldn't get someone, she would come out and bring a few technicians with her. When does a crowd ever help?!!!

    I should have known - she says she is a small animal vet but has decided that she also wants to do large animals. But of she can't even deal with a shot that i can do by myself that she isn't going to be in business very long.

    Anyway..the owner of the horse is in financial difficulty - her husband lost his job about a month ago and they have a huge mortgage. I called her and told her that if it were my horse I would truck her over to Tufts where she could be tubed and watched around the clock for a few days. Her husband won't throw good money after bad and I somewhat understand but what a sucky position. I can not afford to bring some one elses horse to Tufts - especially knowing the way it could very well go - colic followed by founder and thousands of dollars to end up with a lame horse that doesn't belong to me. I'm kicking myself for not telling this woman that she would have to have major medical to bring her here - I figured that is her decision but she also lacks any kind of comprehension of how serious and expensive things can get.

    That's enough of a vent for now...back out to the barn for another 40 minutes of walking. The 'scared' vet is coming out first thing in the morning and we will try and get some mineral oil in her. I'll walk her throughout the night and just hope she doesn't get worse off than she is now - at least she is managing with the banamine.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan. 5, 2003
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    New York/New Jersey
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    3,508

    Default

    Jingles from New York. What a scary situation! I hope all turns out well.
    She wasn't running away with me, I just couldn't stop her!



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep. 16, 2005
    Location
    Maryland
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    2,038

    Default

    Sending you jingles - you are doing all you can. I wouldn't keep walking her though unless she actually colics and is thrashing around. If she will rest quietly. let her do so. If things go south, she will need her strength. The vets at Dupont Equine told me that walking them around the clock is an old wive's tale and what they end up with is an exhausted horse. In fact, since laminitis might be the biggest risk, laying down would not necessarily be a bad thing because it would help relieve stress on the laminae. I thought there were some things that you could administer to counteract the toxins released by the fermentation of the grain so I would have hoped that the vet might have been able to recommend something.



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug. 7, 2006
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    The not-so-frozen North
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    1,668

    Default

    Yikes.

    Jingles to you and to the mare. =(



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
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    Default

    blimey what a crap vet -- you need to find another equine one

    ok if shes not colicking then keep her quiet in a stable put a bar up nose heigh so not to get out into the ailse-- and put feed in a store room

    moniter her--and keep her in a stable let her rest
    just have water in there to begin with
    then slowly introduce a section of hay--

    jingles to you



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun. 15, 2002
    Posts
    5,954

    Default

    Jingles!! It sounds like you are doing everything possible.



  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan. 14, 2003
    Location
    Massachusetts
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cartera45 View Post
    I wouldn't keep walking her though unless she actually colics and is thrashing around. If she will rest quietly. let her do so. If things go south, she will need her strength. The vets at Dupont Equine told me that walking them around the clock is an old wive's tale and what they end up with is an exhausted horse. In fact, since laminitis might be the biggest risk, laying down would not necessarily be a bad thing because it would help relieve stress on the laminae. I thought there were some things that you could administer to counteract the toxins released by the fermentation of the grain so I would have hoped that the vet might have been able to recommend something.

    Back in for a 20 minute break.. I know that walking for colic is an old wives tale but in this case I think the activity might help keep her bowels moving and move some of the gas around. She will rest quietly, but she has labored breathing and is clearly very uncomfortable but not trying to roll like she was earlier. She will just stay wherever I leave her with her head drooping and her nose on the ground - the Banamine is probably peaking in her system right now..so for the moment she is standing with all four in the nice cool mud patch that I usualy find such an annoyance. She hasn't had any water in about 6 hours, earlier she was standing at the water trough like she wanted to drink but didn't quite feel god enough.

    I would love to hear about what could be administered to counteract the toxins. I know sometimes they are put on IV Penicillin for 10 days and there is another antibiotic - I can't remember the name of it..but if anyone has any suggestions, this vet is probably willing to at least provide what I ask for - as long as she doesn't have to risk getting hurt(where is that rolling eyes icon?).
    I can not find another vet tonight, I may possibly be able to locate one tomorrow and convince them to come out, it is just frustrating because time is a wastin' and this horse is miserable.

    And if she is still hurting in the morning, which I expect she probably will be, I'm thinking of just trailering her over to Tufts. I feel awful that she isn't there now but I'd have to put it all on my credit card and I've worked so hard to have ZERO credit card debt. The people who own her have a lot more money that I do and while I understand their reluctance to spend thousands I can't believe that they won't even agree to a night or two of round the clock support just to see how it goes. If I bring her, it will be hard for me not to treat her if she has complications just for the sake of money. This woman has been trying to give me the horse but I have told her that I can't make the financial committment until I find a decent job. This is a prime example of why I didn't want to take her yet!!! But at least I would have insured her and she would be at the vet hospital right now.

    Ah well, back to the barn.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec. 13, 1999
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
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    35,898

    Default

    A good vet would have come and given her a dose of activated charcoal to do exactly what you are wondering - help with the toxins. Mineral oil will help keep things moving, but I doubt it will move things fast enough to get 40lb of grain out the door before enough of it sits long enough in the hind gut, ferments, and releases toxins. I'm afraid you are far from out of the woods yet Jingling like mad though, hoping this is one tough mare
    ______________________________
    The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun. 10, 2001
    Location
    nj
    Posts
    8,792

    Default omg!

    serious jingles from nj!!!!
    http://www.eponashoe.com/
    TQ(Trail Queen) \"Learn How to Ride or Move Over!!\" Clique



  10. #10
    Join Date
    May. 8, 2004
    Posts
    4,304

    Default

    Can you call your vet and ask if you can give anything like Gastroguard? Perhaps it would help to keep the toxins from grain overload from leeching through the intestinal wall into the bloodstream which could cause laminitis.
    What an unfortunate situation. I feel so sorry for you. Good luck and please keep us posted on the mare. The owners should really just get out their credit card and get that mare to Tufts. It's not fair to you or to the mare to just leave her without any treatment. But maybe she's a tough mare, and she'll come through ok. You are very kind to care so much about her.



  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug. 21, 2004
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    Guanajuato, GTO, Mexico
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    Default

    Something like UAA gel, with activated charcoal will deactivate toxins. Dr. Pollitt has shown that standing with feet in ice water constantly (up to 2 days with no adverse side affects) can prevent laminitis from carbohydrate overload IF it is done before it sets in. The damage is done within 8-12 hours after the grain.
    Best of luck,
    Katy



  12. #12
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    Jun. 10, 2001
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    nj
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    Lightbulb hope i never have to use this info

    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Watts View Post
    Something like UAA gel, with activated charcoal will deactivate toxins. Dr. Pollitt has shown that standing with feet in ice water constantly (up to 2 days with no adverse side affects) can prevent laminitis from carbohydrate overload IF it is done before it sets in. The damage is done within 8-12 hours after the grain.
    Best of luck,
    Katy
    but that's good to know...
    http://www.eponashoe.com/
    TQ(Trail Queen) \"Learn How to Ride or Move Over!!\" Clique



  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
    Location
    uk
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    Default

    i feel so sorry for you --the onwers shouldnt have brought her if they cant afford her or do right by her-- how horrid for you

    i hope today is going to be better but iw ant you to know something loud and clear--

    what ever happens its not your fault accidents happen ok
    fact of life--
    and i dont care what the owners think if they had thought about things right way in the begining and listened to you then you wouldnt be in the situation you are in now

    good luck god bless and keep us posted

    and also dont let this put you off doing what you are trying to achieve take it as a learning curve - ok we all have them when we start out our bisnesses and if anyone says they didnt they would be lieing

    jingles to you and mare-- hope you had a decent nights sleep but somehow i dont think so-- just make sure you look after you to



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan. 14, 2003
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    Massachusetts
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    Well, I'm getting to the point where I'm about ready to just take her to the hospital myself. It just feels criminal to not try and proactively prevent or mitigate the damage from laminitis. I know in my heart it is coming. At what point can you justify not taking action because of money?

    The problem is that I will cause serious problems with my partner. She loves having a horse around but not a horseperson. We spent about 5k last spring on a stallion I had - he is now a gelding, so the money went towards training, shipping and castration. I promised her we would recoup that money when we sold him. Well, he hasn't sold yet - so it is going to be a tough sell to ask to spend big bucks on a horse that doesn't even belong to us. It just feels crappy to have it come down to a financial decision.

    I convinced the Vet (the one who is scared of her) to come out this morning and we got about 2/3 of a gallon of mineral oil into her. I'm giving her banamine for now. The vet didn't have any bute with her! So, I need to go get some at her office (where her small animal clinic is). She said I should just give the mare a half a gram this morning and then see how she does.
    I think it should be more like a gram in the morning and evening for the next few days and if she seems like she isn't foundering, then back her off and keep an eye on her for signs of laminitis.

    back to the barn...keeping my fingers crossed.



  15. #15
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    Jan. 14, 2003
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    Massachusetts
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by goeslikestink View Post
    what ever happens its not your fault accidents happen ok
    Well, I've had horses for almost 30 years. I'm not blaming myself for this one. Yes, I guess I will have to find a way to lock the grain up or a horse proof container. I don't have a tack room - it is a two stall barn with an aisle. I wouldn't have predicted a high chance that she would barrel into the stall door hard enough to pop a board off and unlatch the door. I actually have two latches on the door and a clip - that was to be my safety net for preventing escape should she figure out how to work the latches. She is currently the only horse on the property so I didn't have to worry about horses getting bunched up in the run in-stall - in that case I may have worried about the front of the stall getting a hard bump. You just can't predict everything they will do!

    edited to add: In a little bit of defense for the owners, their trainer sold them this unregistered, untrained horse with absolutely no background info for 8k. They have boarded her since last February. The husband is the sole income earner and has just lost his job. It will most likely take him a long time to find another one as he is highly specialized and old enough to suffer age discrimination. The teenager, of course, has now lost interest and the mother loves the horse and in fact is willing to just give her to me so that she knows the hores is in a good home, rather than selling her and having no idea what becomes of her. The only reason that the horse isn't mine at the moment is that I told her that I could not take on the financial responsibility. I think it speaks volumes about her that she is willing to write off 10-12k to make sure the horse is happy rather than selling her and trying to recoup some of her losses. It is just an unfortunate situation for all of us made more complicated by the fact that the owner doesn't really understand what is happening to her horse right now.



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
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    uk
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    um -- going to be honest and not lie --

    horses are unpredicable we all know that but what iam going to say isnt against you its to make you more aware of possibale sernerios -- and i want you ready with action -- in your defence

    is the horse insured -- are you insured
    going to do the hard stuff first as its awkward but feel must make you aware --
    1-- you say the horse owners are totally non horsey with out a brain cell between there ears this could be good it could be bad-- if good then they will leave you alone-- but if bad -- they are in a financial crisis they may see this as an oppertunity to make a bit of dosh -- how well could blame you--
    2-- if they insured then possibale they could claim on inusrance so sort horse out first then claim and vets paid -- again insurance is a dicky thing at times so could see you as repsosnsible to cliam there monies back but you could fight back with your own insurance company

    well thats the rough bit

    3-- if you are insured then possibale make a claim as to horse being a a nutter not the quite is aggreisive and killed your stabled as it was wild and kicked and trashed your stable yard --and ate your food --
    now the vet that scared of the horse as she has been in attendance would say and confirm that the horse wasnt docile --do you get my drift


    so having a crap vet could actually go in your favour-- and having the knowledge and care for all your animals as your food stuff was in a sperate stable door shut and locked-- and being that you called a vet asap all goes towards you ---

    just be careful that owners dont twist things to there own advantage --
    as they are in a finanicak crisis--

    but oyu could cliam so not paying out off your own pocket might have to pay a bit access for a couple of hundred -- but enough damaged cuase by this horse might actually get you a few extra things that needed maybe

    no offence -- i really do feel for you on this one mate



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Nov. 9, 2005
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    uk
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    i just re read that they paid 8k for an untrained horse-- hope you dont pay that much--the mind boggles- and of course its the people like you that take it in and try to it justice and help the horse --um a previous trianer my god some sort of trianer he/she was -- --bet she made a fat profit--

    that just makes the whole thing even worse in my book becuase we love the horse we are prepare to give it a denct chance a stepping stone in life
    to get the right and corrrect trianing it needs only to get our arses kick in the butt for trying to the right thing-- and the worse part the owners dont care of you nor the horse-- if they did they would have helped you and took the horse to vet---just becuase they arnt horsey doesnt mean that they couldnt take the time out to mend your stables --or see if you needed anything like a cup of tea and something to eat while you was walking around with there horse
    no they was in bed i bet asleep -- i sincerely hope everything works out well for you -- keep us updated -- ithink your an ok person --



  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb. 9, 2004
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    Sunny CA
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    Sending big, big jingles for the mare! You are in a rough spot and seem to be doing the best you can!
    Steph

    http://community.webshots.com/user/stephanne014

    Rerider/Haydunker Clique

    RIP Barbaro, you were my hero!



  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan. 14, 2003
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    Massachusetts
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    To answer some questions:

    Yes. The owners were in bed sleeping. That pissed me off a bit, I must say.

    The horse isn't insured. I understand what you are saying about using the sitaution to my advantage as far as insurance goes but it is a moot point. I will never again have a horse on my property that doesn not carry major medical. I don't care about the 'value' of the horse for mortality purposes but it sure would be nice to have the vet bills covered in order to prevent this type of situation. I always insure for the minimal amount of mortality I need to get the major medical.

    She has been standing on the crossties with each front foot in a bucket of cool water for about 20 minutes at a time. I'll step it up and keep her in there as much as she will put up with. That is my next plan of attack, to try and address the founder before it happens. Keeping her feet cool doesn't cost anything except sleep.

    I had no intention of paying anything for her. When she came here, the owners had been told that the horse was possibly deaf and they thought they may have a special needs case on their hands. I was going to work with her a bit and help them figure out the best way to go and try not to have them get screwed in the process. They want to give her to me but as I have said, I can not take on the financial commitment. This is a PERFECT example of why I was unwilling to take her on as my sole financial responsibility at this time.

    Edited to add: the comment about the claiming the horse to not be docile - I understand where you are coming from. The kicker is that this mare has a wonderful temperament. she is just a lovely horse and loves people. I wonder if she isn't a bucket baby. She is a bit stubborn about shots and having a tube shoved up her nose. I have just given her a third shot of banamine and she is actually not bad about it now. I do have to twitch her but she doesn't even argue about the twitch at this point. I think she is smart and also just tests to see what she can get away with and she had that vet figured out in about 5 seconds flat.



  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul. 13, 2006
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    459

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    Ask the vet (or Tufts) about a product called Bio Sponge. It is supposed to help to prevent toxins in the gut from being absorbed into the body, according to my vet.

    I have an old horse who had been periodically going off of his feed. Last spring, he went so long--several days-- with so little feed intake/gut movement/no gut sounds after the initial oil/Banamine regime (yes the oil did move through) and regular walking, that toxin buildup in the gut became a real concern. Rather than the old standby charcoal, my vet started my old boy on a product called Bio Sponge. It comes in syringes like so many wormers do today, and it's administered the same way. I was giving our horse 2 syringes worth every 12 hours until things were finally moving again.

    In addition, my vet told me that a low dose of Banamine multiple times/day can help the body against absorbing toxins. So I was also administering paste Banamine (250# dose) every few hours at his direction.

    The hardest part is that since I was giving an ORAL dose of Banamine, it couldn't be given within a certain time frame (1/2 hour? 1 hour? before or after!) of the Bio Sponge, since the purpose of the Bio Sponge was to help prevent the toxins from being absorbed. Needless to say, I dreaded the alarm going off at night, after a couple of days.

    But the bottom line is, it appeared to work well for our situation. You might ask about the possibility of this combination, for your situation.

    Bio Sponge was designed by, and is available through Alamo Pintado (sp?) hospital here in CA.

    Hope this information helps!!!! Fingers crossed!!! Thinking positive thoughts for you....

    For those who might ask, our old horse is in very good health otherwise, with full blood chem panels supporting that. And the good news for us is that we appear to have found the underlying cause with our boy...and have taken steps to minimize the chances of it happening again! Yeah!

    For the OP--If you want more detail, let me know...I can verify the dosages of everything we gave, and how often.



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