I, too, saw the saddles on shoulders/dropped backs.....I think these olden days riders would have loved to have the knowledge & equiptment that is out here today, just like if we could leap 50 years ahead and get our hands on some equiptment/knowledge, we'd do so....could they even imagine the medium on which we are all discussing them, in real time? Whew...what a difference....
and I too would rather be a horse in 2006 than in 1930......purely for the health care benefits!
~*Ride Far*~Ride Well~*~ The Sky's the Limit~
www.firstgiving.com/christinahyke
He's saying that Dressage is great in it's own place, but you need a forward seat for galloping/jumping. Out of his words (Not mine- I'm not experienced enough) The way dressage is ridden now could be detrimental to H/J.
EXACTLY. A few of the other things people have come up with as their interpretations of this quote are almost absurd.
I brought up his quote because he has seen the past 30 plus years and is in position (no pun intended) to compare trends in dressage.
He has seen the last 30 years as PRIMARILY A HUNTER/JUMPER. I don't know why now suddenly he's to be revered as an expert on DRESSAGE. What next, his opinions on eventing and combined driving? (rolling eyes, but in a friendly way)
sm maybe I am misunderstanding the quote. Is not GM saying that dressage should be ridden in a more forward seat? That is what I get out of it anyway."
I don't understand how you get that out of it. GM says nothing about riding dressage in a "more forward seat," only that it should not be ridden "excessively behind the motion," with "loose legs, overly long stirrups...," IOW, I think he's pretty clear. I've been taught exactly the same things by instructors who studied at Neindorff's (one of whom trail rides all his horses at least once a week), so perhaps it's more than a coincidence that *Dressage Formula,* by a protege of Neindorff, features so many pictures of Watjen, with whom GM studied.
Of course Herbermann (author of *Dressage Formula*) is one of those who apparently does not believe that dressage is or should be a specialized discipline, saying instead that "When correctly implemented, a solid foundation in basic dressage is useful for horses of all equestrian disciplines, being a practical gymnastic preparation which prolongs the creature's usefulness, and makes it a pleasure to ride." I remember Podhasky and Steinbrecht, too, writing how important it was to them that people understand and appreciate this aspect of dressage, being especially touched by how pleased and proud Podhasky was that one of the Lippizzan stallions he rode in demonstrations was so trusting and obedient that he continued to work without so much as a pause when he unexpectedly found himself performing within a spotlight on a darkened arena so he couldn't even see where he was going, and another occasion when the horse calmly maintained a halt even as a helicopter landed nearby. I'd be very surprised, indeed, if these masters of classical dressage did not feel that dressage horses should be capable of pleasant hacks.
Personally, I find most of the pictures of Herbermann riding the very common horses featured in *Dressage Formula* a great deal more pleasant to look at than most of the pictures posted at the beginning of this thread. The horses (which include a draft cross, a standardbred cross and a half Arab pony) are no where near as beautiful as the modern WB's, but I find the riding, the movements (especially the piaffes), and overall sense of harmony and relaxation between horse and rider portrayed in that book's photographs much more asthetically appealing, as a group, than either of the groups presented here. As others have said, good and less good, correct and incorrect riding and training (not to mention unfortunate moments!) have always co-existed and been distinguishable from one another even as fashions have changed.
i've read a lot of different reactions to the pictures, curious to see what this board thinks.
This just confirms that there's bad and good riding, just like it was in the old days. I was going to look for examples, but have not had the time. Even today you will still see dropped back and hind ends out, but you will also see horses who are ridden correctly. I really do think this whole debate comes essentially down to the skill of the rider and trainer regardless of time.
I'm the one who originally posted the photos on the other BB. They all come from Podhajsky's "The Art of Dressage: Basic Principles of Riding and Judging" published in 1976, after his death a few years earlier.
I just wanted to offer a glimpse of photos from a book that's hard to get one's hands on nowadays. All riders pictured won Olympic medals.
Here is the identifying information:
Sabel, ridden by Lieutenant Sandstrom to silver medals in 1920 and 1924
Draufganger, ridden by Baron von Langen to a gold medal in 1928
Linon, ridden by Major Marion to silver medals in 1928 and 1932
Absinth, ridden by Major Gerhard to a silver medal in 1936
Nero, ridden by Podhajsky to a bronze medal in 1936
Revue, ridden by Captain Moser in the 1940s
Juli, ridden by Major St. Cyr to a gold medal in 1956
Wald, ridden by G. Fischer to a silver medal in 1960
Woermann, ridden by H. Chammartin to a gold medal in 1964
Dux, ridden by Reiner Klimke to a bronze medal in 1968
Piaff, ridden by Liselott Linsenhoff to a gold medal in 1972
Not quite, you will still see photo's of horses with dropped backs. If a horse uses him/herself this way I thonk it would actually be hard to find a picture where the back might be up.
"hauling on the curb rein"
you assume so based on the angle of the curb shank, which is determined by how loose the curb chain is, not by amount of "hauling". the rider can have the curb rein without any pressure on it at all, and have the curb shank rotated so it is almost parallel to the ground, and STILL not have the bit even have any effect, if the curb chain is loose, and if the cheeks of the bridle are loose, it can go further than THAT. certain riders leave the curb chain very loose to make the curb bit milder in action, and constantly get called on the carpet on this bulletin board for being mean, cruel, evil horse abusers. i used to think it was funny the first couple times i heard it, now it is starting to get boring.
"the snaffle rein is completely dropped"
i hate to tell you this, but the guy wasn't doing that to more effectively abuse his horse or to give himself more leverage to torture the poor beast more. dropping the snaffle and riding on the curb only was done to demonstrate the refined schooling of horse and rider, and is a very long tradition. look in spanish riding school and books on classical riding. when SRS came to USA they featured a demonstration of riding on the curb. to criticize something, it's usually necessary to know something about it.
My point was and I guess I wasn't clear is that if the exact same things were done today people would faint and have heart attacks. Same thing with the dropped backs - it isn't necessarily a sign that the horse isn't using his back but perhaps more of a conformation thing. It is though a general impression and that is all you can do from a picture. I do not understand how riding just off the curb demonstrates "refined schooling" but of course I haven't schooled with the SRS, have you? If someone showed a picture of Anky riding with just the curb she would have been crucified!
fish wrote "Personally, I find most of the pictures of Herbermann riding the very common horses featured in *Dressage Formula* a great deal more pleasant to look at than most of the pictures posted at the beginning of this thread. The horses (which include a draft cross, a standardbred cross and a half Arab pony) are no where near as beautiful as the modern WB's, but I find the riding, the movements (especially the piaffes), and overall sense of harmony and relaxation between horse and rider portrayed in that book's photographs much more asthetically appealing, as a group, than either of the groups presented here."
To that end, Col von Ziegner had suggested in dressage tests the relationship must increase from 4:1 in favor of the collective remarks to 4:2 or 4:3. This would put the emphasis of the tests back to overall harmony. Training would be less about drilling individual movements and more on overall harmony.
Please don't ask me to quote the source on Col von Ziegner, I don't think I can unless I luck out googling it... but I am sure of it... Like GM, Ingred Klimke and Balkenhol -- von Ziegner asks us to do better than accept the current trends.
Ok, this is besides the point, but, doesn't everyone think that the little girl and her gray pony on the first page of the "modern" dressage horses are absolutely ADORABLE?? http://www.eurodressage.com/reports/...gen-photo.html
on the bottom of this page
[QUOTE=sm]To that end, Col von Ziegner had suggested in dressage tests the relationship must increase from 4:1 in favor of the collective remarks to 4:2 or 4:3. This would put the emphasis of the tests back to overall harmony. Training would be less about drilling individual movements and more on overall harmony.[QUOTE]
And how may I ask did you jump to this conclusion that this is what it is everywhere to create such an emergency?
However, there is nothing to show that "classical" riding is any more harmonious than modern riding. In fact, plenty of people would say modern riding is MORE harmonious...................
Hey! Don't forget, back then, dressage was primarily ridden by MEN. It could only have improved with all the top international women we see riding today!
However, there is nothing to show that "classical" riding is any more harmonious than modern riding. In fact, plenty of people would say modern riding is MORE harmonious...................
I don't think it's "classical," but rather "historical"(or something of the sort), which should be opposed to "modern" riding. After all, "classical" riding does still exist-- even in the competition arena. I suggest that when we see "harmony," we tend to be looking at it.
On the whole, however, there are few people I know who have watched both a performance of the SRS and a recent CDI who would not agree that the former is characterized by much greater "harmony" while the GP rides in the later frequently display high levels of tension.
After all, "classical" riding does still exist-- even in the competition arena.
I agree. I use the term "classical", because a lot of people have decided everything old is classical, and everything within the last thirty years or so is modern (and this is also the reason for the "classical" instead of classical. wink) I was trying to make my responses more easily understandable by using the terms as they are commonly misused and accepted. But YOU are right in what you've pointed out.
I prefer to think of it as correct and incorrect, not classical vs modern or classical vs competition, and if you ask two people for their definitions of "classical" you'll likely get three definitions anyhow. Examples of both correct AND incorrect riding could be found in the past, in the present, in competition and/or at home.
Since the last ten years we see more and more flashy horses entering the dressage arena. Buyers ask for them and breeders want to fullfill this demand.
However there are not so much riders which can handle these horses.
We recently saw the switch from Nadinne and Elvis to a more classical oriented trainer, (she broke up with Martin Schaudt) because she couldn't handle the power of Elvis.
Our Dutch national coach of the Junior and YoungRiders team Jan Peeters, decided every year (and very succesfull) to take 2 classical trained horses and 2 Flashy horses to the European Championship. He calls the classical trained horses "the lock on the door". These classical trained horses are realiable and in 99% of the cases they score 70-72%, the two Flashy horses he considers as the cream on the pie. They can score 80% or 60%. Since only three combinations count for the team-medal he can afford that one of the two Flashy horses have a bad day and still win the Gold.
I watch over 100 rides every weekend and have to admit that I love to see these Flashy horses and mostly go to the bar when I have to watch these calm and steady horses, who will score a 7 on every movement.
I love to whitness the fact if the riders aboard these Flashy horses can manage it through the end of the test. This is fun and this is excitement and this is what people want to see these days.
By introducing the freestyle to music and the fact that these naughty boys, with a mind of their own, have replaced the braindead horses, dressage has gained popularity again and is more fun to watch.
Since the last ten years we see more and more flashy horses entering the dressage arena. Buyers ask for them and breeders want to fullfill this demand.
However there are not so much riders which can handle these horses.
We recently saw the switch from Nadinne and Elvis to a more classical oriented trainer, (she broke up with Martin Schaudt) because she couldn't handle the power of Elvis.
Our Dutch national coach of the Junior and YoungRiders team Jan Peeters, decided every year (and very succesfull) to take 2 classical trained horses and 2 Flashy horses to the European Championship. He calls the classical trained horses "the lock on the door". These classical trained horses are realiable and in 99% of the cases they score 70-72%, the two Flashy horses he considers as the cream on the pie. They can score 80% or 60%. Since only three combinations count for the team-medal he can afford that one of the two Flashy horses have a bad day and still win the Gold.
I watch over 100 rides every weekend and have to admit that I love to see these Flashy horses and mostly go to the bar when I have to watch these calm and steady horses, who will score a 7 on every movement.
I love to whitness the fact if the riders aboard these Flashy horses can manage it through the end of the test. This is fun and this is excitement and this is what people want to see these days.
By introducing the freestyle to music and the fact that these naughty boys, with a mind of their own, have replaced the braindead horses, dressage has gained popularity again and is more fun to watch.[Quote]
I guess this is where tastes (and opinions) differ. (1) I do not consider the "classical" horses "braindead." Quite to the contrary, I consider them calm enough to think clearly while many of the "naughty" horses are so because their brains have been "fried." (2) I do not find it "fun" to watch rides in suspense, wondering when the tenuous control the rider has over his/her obviously explosive horse is going to give way. IMO that kind of wreck-anticipating crowd-pleasing "excitement" is more appropriate to NASCAR than dressage... and I take my own walks (although I don't drink) when I see this kind of "flash" in the arena. It's also one of the reasons why many horsepeople are finding that dressage has come more and more to resemble saddleseat/ park horse competitions than gymnastic training appropriate to the development of flexible, athletic horses.
But what I really meant to do was add these photos of GM into the mix since his qualifications to speak on dressage have been a topic of this discussion:
I watch over 100 rides every weekend and have to admit that I love to see these Flashy horses and mostly go to the bar when I have to watch these calm and steady horses, who will score a 7 on every movement.
I love to whitness the fact if the riders aboard these Flashy horses can manage it through the end of the test. This is fun and this is excitement and this is what people want to see these days.
By introducing the freestyle to music and the fact that these naughty boys, with a mind of their own, have replaced the braindead horses, dressage has gained popularity again and is more fun to watch.
There are many who appreciate the Equestrian Art and its classical principles for what they are. Why spoil dressage competition for those who would like to compete according to the time honored principles?
If dressage (as defined by the classical principles) is so boring then why would people even want to call this new ‘taking it to the edge’ way of riding that you describe, dressage? If a rider chooses to ride by a set of principles other than those that define the classical art then he is not riding dressage. Why not just come out and openly admit it – if nothing more than for the sake of truth in advertising and to remove any suggestion of bait and switch.
The classical art and its principles should be left in tact for those who appreciate it, since it was here first, and this new ‘riding on the edge’ craze should be given a different name that better reflects what it is.
Fish were you adding the photos because you thought they were good, or not?
I'm not impressed, and they certainly don't persuade me to consider/respect him as an expert on DRESSAGE.
He looks to be slightly perched forward, too light in the seat, and appears to be overpowering the horse in the first photo with sheer upper body strength and a clamped on leg. If viewed from the side, I'm rather certain this horse would be short and broken in the neck, and probably behind the vertical in a bad way. Kudos to him for promoting flatwork for jumpers, but he's still no dressage expert in my book.
Is GM now to be considered a "classical" dressage master because he made one slightly disparaging remark against modern dressage?
There are many who appreciate the Equestrian Art and its classical principles for what they are. Why spoil dressage competition for those who would like to compete according to the time honored principles?
If dressage (as defined by the classical principles) is so boring then why would people even want to call this new ‘taking it to the edge’ way of riding that you describe, dressage? If a rider chooses to ride by a set of principles other than those that define the classical art then he is not riding dressage. Why not just come out and openly admit it – if nothing more than for the sake of truth in advertising and to remove any suggestion of bait and switch.
The classical art and its principles should be left in tact for those who appreciate it, since it was here first, and this new ‘riding on the edge’ craze should be given a different name that better reflects what it is.
It seems to me that the crowd, judges, sponsors, horses and riders are enjoying this new era of dressage.
Did you ever understand how wonderfull it is to school yourself in stead of longing, beating and training 70% of the spirit and power out of your horses. I have seen tooooo many riders who only have the guts to take 50% of the capacity of their horses into the competition arena.
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Originally Posted by kkj
