[Sabine]

OMG- I just realized that YOU MBM- put that same thread on UDBB and pretty much got your behind kicked for suggesting that this was a really nice extended trot picture...now on COTH- the same thread appears and you find a much more positive response from trainers and riders...and you appear slightly critical of it?? What gives? No wonder you hang out here now...jeezus...quite amazed and :/?

[sabryant]

OMG- I just realized that YOU MBM- put that same thread on UDBB and pretty much got your behind kicked for suggesting that this was a really nice extended trot picture...now on COTH- the same thread appears and you find a much more positive response from trainers and riders...and you appear slightly critical of it?? What gives? No wonder you hang out here now...jeezus...quite amazed and :/?

The funniest things happen on these boards! LoL

[Moll]

Thank you all for responding to MBM:s reply which had me hyperventilating

Just because you mainly see horses doing "extended trots" without changing their frame one centimetre, does not mean it's correct! Of course the horse should lengthen its frame. And of course it should be allowed to lengthen its frame more than in the medium trot. It's a whole different gait, so to speak

[nhwr]

Of course the horse should lengthen its frame. And of course it should be allowed to lengthen its frame more than in the medium trot.

So can you all explain to me how this is done? Is there less engagement or does the horse lower its head and neck? Other options?

[sabryant]

So can you all explain to me how this is done? Is there less engagement or does the horse lower its head and neck? Other options?

Nothing more than lightening your hands forward. If you've put the correct foundation your horse, he should know to always reach with his hind legs toward your hands. Should not lower head or neck...that is for first level lenthening.

[nhwr]

Nothing more than lightening your hands forward. If you've put the correct foundation your horse, he should know to always reach with his hind legs toward your hands. Should not lower head or neck

I agree. That is my point.

Engagement (following with the hind legs) and elevation of the poll will be maintained. If the horse is capable of self carriage (and it should be by the time you are doing extended work), this won't change the length of the frame.

So how is the frame supposed to lengthen in extended trot relative to medium? I don't think it can. This is why extended work depends on collection. The horse must be strong and balanced enough to maintain the engagement and elevation of the head and neck (in other words maintain its frame), yet still lengthen its stride.

[pinecone]

now that i think about it..... i dont think it is so easy to critique correctly.... otherwise there would be many many more judges.... since they are the ultimate critiquers - yes?

mbm, dear, there is VERY little in common between your "critiques" and actual judging.

Also, there are plenty of people who are qualified and knowledgeable enough to be judges, but who are not. There's more to becoming a judge than just "knowing your stuff", and not everyone even desires to BE a judge. But your statement seems to imply the people who are not judges are not judges because they COULDN'T be judges, and that is simply not a correct assumption.

If you would quit taking for granted that there are things you "know" you are right about (lol), you would learn much more. But charging into every discussion with a chip on your shoulder and ready to nitpick, and hoping primarily to have your thoughts validated by ideayoda, isn't going to help you LEARN anything.

As I know it, the extended trot should have a slightly longer frame than the medium trot and is a bit "flatter", while striving to maintain the same tempo and an uphill balance. The problem is that few horses can optimally BOTH lengthen the frame AND maintain the uphill balance, and so it is more typical to see horses which are EITHER in uphill balance but with minimal lengthening of the frame, or which have lengthened the frame but fallen off balance and onto the forehand (downhill). The horse which has maintained his balance but with less lengthening of the frame will generally have an easier and better transition back to collected trot than horse which has lost his balance and fallen onto the forehand.

[kkj]

I really love that Liberty stallion. He looks more like he is shooting up then out but not really like he is lengthing his frame. He is so uphill and cool.

The other photo with the man riding that horse looks more like he is shooting out, lengthing his frame and stretching more to the contact, not so uphill.

Some one who knows (because I surely don't) which is better, more correct and would score higher?

Is the horse with the man younger and at a lower level because he is in a snaffle and doesn't look as uphill? To me though his front legs look more free and Liberty's almost looks a little stiff but more strong and powerful. Is this just a difference in how these horses move?

Thanks in advance

[mbm]

first: i actually posted the thread over on UDBB after it was posted here.... i wanted to see what those folks thought. clearly i was incorrect in my opinion that this was a nice photo. i learned something.

second: i am not sure what comment i made that had someone hyperventilating? if my comment about the front leg and the quote of the FEI rules has you hyperventilating then i suggest that you keep your self in very safe spaces if *that* littel bit of interaction has you that upset.

i wasnt the one that made a comment about the horse not lengthening its frame - that was NHWR.

Third: as i have said OVER AND OVER - i dont know much and want to learn more. my comments about judging were meant as an example and nothing more..... (ie there is nothing wrong with looking and trying to see what is really there)

as for the comment about bitterness.... i am not bitter..... that isnt really how i operate. i love this sport and i love horses and i love learning. its amazing how some spin that out to ther liking.

oh, i forgot i am the monster of all time, known worldwide

[nhwr]

The goal of extension is to demonstrate a lengthened stride through greater impulsive energy without loss of engagement and balance. The goal of collection is to shift more weight to the hind quarters (elevate the shoulders) while increasing the amplitude of the stride.

kkj,

how can you tell this horse has lengthen its frame without seeing a series of photos?

This is a major problem I have with picking apart photos. They do not give complete information. Dressage is about movement. Photos don't show movement.

[kkj]

nhwr, I agree it is hard to judge from photos and I make no claim to be an expert. I know the difference between collection and extension but... Liberty is doing what to me looks like an upper level extended trot. The big uphill ones you see on the Grand Prix horses. He is in a pretty tight frame and very "put together". The other horse looks like a lower level horse not as up hill and more stretching to the contact. His movement to me looks awesome. I don't know what these horses frames were like before. It just looks like this horse is stretching more and in a longer frame. It doesn't look like a Grand Prix extended trot to me... but I don't claim to know, I was asking a sincere question.

Which one do you think would score higher? What level do you think they are?

[nhwr]

Personally, I think the second one is more correct because even though there is less uphill drama, the horse appears lighter in the bridle, the stride seems longer, there is no toe flicking, the shoulder appears more mobile and the co-ordination of the diagonal pairs is better.

But I think the first photo was taken at a less opportune moment. So I wouldn't stake much on that opinion.

[mbm]

what is so wrong with looking at a photo and trying to see what is, and is not, there? how else are we to train our eyes?

i just do NOT understand why some folks are so against this type of activity.

must everything be thought of as negative? it IS possible to look at something and to critique it and to still enjoy what you are looking at. in other words - just because i look and try to see what is good and what could be better, doesn't mean that i dont like what i am looking at. Also how are we to *really* know when we are looking at something worthy of praise, or conversely that something needs work, if we dont have a basic set of tools to understnad what we are looking at.

i am really amazed at how NEGATIVE some of the people are here. everything to them is seem thru dark glasses. if someone is trying to learn these folks spin it to the person being bitter and envious and etc.

if someone asks a question it is spun to being challenging the other person.

<shakes head>

i just dont get it.

and, fwiw, i think on UDBB we came to the conclusion that the horse that NHWR posted was not an extended trot... i think we came to the conclusion that is was a medium.

[nhwr]

Bernd Eylers identifies it as an extended trot. I think he'd probably know

But this is the problem with looking at photos. Dressage is a sport of motion. Looking at a single photo is like taking a comment totally out of context and assigning to it whatever meaning you want it to have. When discussing different phase of a gait, you need to see other phases and transitions to be able to adequately assess the quality. You need to determine the relative difference between them. This is why the comment "needs to show more difference" is so popular among judges One of the best ways to determine the quality of an extended trot is to watch the transition to and from collected trot. That is why the tests are structured that way for the most part. Dressage- it is all about movement

[kkj]

Thanks nwhr. You gave sound reasons and I don't disagree. I think he looks like a better mover but not as uphill. I just wanted to know what people think as to which would score higher just from what we can see from the pictures (realizing their shortcomings)

[sabryant]

I agree. That is my point.

Engagement (following with the hind legs) and elevation of the poll will be maintained. If the horse is capable of self carriage (and it should be by the time you are doing extended work), this won't change the length of the frame.

So how is the frame supposed to lengthen in extended trot relative to medium? I don't think it can. This is why extended work depends on collection. The horse must be strong and balanced enough to maintain the engagement and elevation of the head and neck (in other words maintain its frame), yet still lengthen its stride.

I think the frame does lengthen slightly but not enough as to be noticable to the eye. If you give your hands and horse takes up with his hind legs what you give with your hands, then his frame does slightly lengthen. Personally, I ride the mediun and the extended about the same. Experimenting with it in tests, I've found that I get better scores on both rather than if I try to distinquish one from the other.

[sabryant]

I agree. That is my point.

Engagement (following with the hind legs) and elevation of the poll will be maintained. If the horse is capable of self carriage (and it should be by the time you are doing extended work), this won't change the length of the frame.

So how is the frame supposed to lengthen in extended trot relative to medium? I don't think it can. This is why extended work depends on collection. The horse must be strong and balanced enough to maintain the engagement and elevation of the head and neck (in other words maintain its frame), yet still lengthen its stride.

oh, and one last point, I have always heard that a horse can not truly extend until he is schooling the highest collection of piaffe. More elasticity/amplitude/strength of haunches from work in piaffe would be a testament to this. If this be the truth (it makes sense to me it could be true but is food for thought on my part) why do they make the horse extended trot in 3rd/4th level.

[aregard]

what is so wrong with looking at a photo and trying to see what is, and is not, there? how else are we to train our eyes?

What you said.

Critiquing is part of how people improve. It's not condemnatory. It's _informative_. I've never understood the old "why is everybody against (horse/rider/photograph)?" crap either.

Nobody's 'against' it. We're looking at something to learn from it. And here, we had a nice discussion on whether or not the frame does lengthen. There you go.

[stolensilver]

I've read the thread on UDBB and been sickened by it. Some call it critiqueing. I call it bitching.

My opinion about a lot of the old adages of dressage such as the nose should point where the front leg will land are that they were written before slow motion cameras had been invented. It is true that when the front leg touches down it is never beyond the horse's nose. While the stride of the extension is happening though this is not the case, only when the leg lands does the leg/nose thing stay true. A difficult thing to see with the naked eye.

It's not all that long ago that no-one knew the stride sequence for canter and gallop hence all those funny paintings with the horses legs extended out like rocking horses. When the stride sequence was revealed with the first cameras it took a long time for it to be believed and even longer for painters to be allowed to paint things correctly because correct "looked wrong". The ODGs of dressage were in the same position. Technology has moved on and shown that some of the things they wrote were not correct. Except of course in bulletin board land where every word they wrote is enshrined in greatness and trotted out at every opportunity. ROFL!

[mbm]

SS can you elaborate on why you think the ODGs were/are wrong?

and just for the record.....here is the first slo mo of a horse galloping- it is dated 1878... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eadweard_Muybridge