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  1. #181
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    Mar. 2, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by pinecone
    And for the record, just because I have more experience than mbm, I have never said I was "better" than she is. It is her ATTITUDE which I find offensive, not the fact that she is a beginner. But charging into every topic with a chip on her shoulder and looking to be validated by the likes of IDEAyoda etc., does not make me want to help her "train her eye" or "educate herself", and it also makes me suspect she really is NOT truly interested in "training her eye" and "educating herself".
    You're making a whole lot of assumptions.

    Let me just give you an independent view. I don't know you. I don't know mbm, either. I went back and read over the thread from the beginning when comments about 'arrogance' were leveled. I didn't see it.

    That's OK. Your opinion, my opinion, we get to have different opinions.

    But going on and on and on about your opinion of her 'attitude'? And now you say, her 'attitude' doesn't make you want to help her train her eye. I'm thinking, "Geez, what it DOES make her want to do?" which, you will note, is more a reflection about you, not about mbm.

    Not only are you unwilling to help her (which is understandable. Not everybody here helps everybody else here. I mean, who has the time?) BUT you _are_ going to spend time condemning her. I'm having a little more trouble understanding that.

    Here I am, this third party who doesn't know either one of you. What conclusions am I going to draw? Whose attitude is more intransigent, more noticeable, more... you get the picture.
    -- Member of the COTH Appendix QH clique and the dressage-saddle-thigh-block-hating clique.



  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianGolden
    So not going to enter the discussion, but I like this extended trot photo better.

    http://www.ponydom.com/mb/trot.jpg
    What I like best about this photograph is that the inverted V's created by the front legs and the hing legs are far more equal than those commonly seen. It may be a case of when the photograph is snapped, of course, but in this case, the timing certainly contributes to a sense that the horse is stepping well under.
    -- Member of the COTH Appendix QH clique and the dressage-saddle-thigh-block-hating clique.



  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patootie
    Do people here not understand the difference between actually 'lightness' where the horse is carrying himself, and loose floppy reins, where the horse bounces around off his forehand, strung out, with no power coming through frome behind?
    I dunno. Do we have a photo of a horse bouncing around off his forehand, strung out, with no power?

    When I compare the page of 4 photos with Canadian Golden's photo, I have to say that CG's horse looks like he has 'power coming through from behind' but these horses, less so.

    Now, granted, they are doing mediums, not extensions. And maybe it's a timing thing about when the photo was taken. But none of the 4-photo horses are stepping under as well, IMHO.
    -- Member of the COTH Appendix QH clique and the dressage-saddle-thigh-block-hating clique.



  4. #184
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    Jul. 16, 2006
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    The 4 horses doing mediums would not be stepping under as well as a horse doing an extension by definition.

    My problem with CG's photo, while the horse is pushing significantly and powerfully forward, he has actually fallen somewhat on his forehand if you can believe. I know this by looking at how far back the front leg has come back under the body. In my picture, the hindfoot is blurry, but I can almost assure you without seeing it that the rear hind foot stretched back is starting to leave the ground, where as the foreleg that is back under the body is still firmly planted.

    If the horse were in proper balance, then both feet would be leaving the ground at the same time.

    It also looks to me like the rider is aware of this, as her hands have become quite high. I would hope she does not always hold them quite so high, but is rather making an effort in this moment to help the horse get off the bridle a little bit and balance more on his hind legs.

    But it is a wonderful picture of thrust. But if you look careful, you can also see that it is more thrust than balance.



  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patootie
    The 4 horses doing mediums would not be stepping under as well as a horse doing an extension by definition.
    Pardon me. I wasn't clear.

    I mean to say they are not, IMO, stepping under as well (as evenly) as I think would be ideal for the medium. Again, I am of the old school insofar as I like the front end and the hind end to look like they belong together. I don't like the look some horses have of traveling like Park horses with flashy action in front but less behind. This doesn't seem to bother other people as much.

    I agree with some others here that the V's created by front legs and hind legs are supposed to 'match' in all phases of trot work.

    So, maybe our discussion should really be: "How much of a roll does fashion play in modern dressage training and/or competition?" Oh, god, no, that would be a train wreck!


    But it is a wonderful picture of thrust. But if you look careful, you can also see that it is more thrust than balance.
    That's the ticklish difference, of course. Asking for as much thrust as you can get without sacrificing balance. A little one way or the other, and you tip off the pinnacle. We are supposed to favor balance over thrust, so that would tell us which direction in which to err.
    -- Member of the COTH Appendix QH clique and the dressage-saddle-thigh-block-hating clique.



  6. #186
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    Jul. 16, 2006
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    Since when does the type of movement come into play? It shouldn't matter whether it moves like a park horse, a show hunter, or a washing machine. A horse is a horse. I'm not talking personal preferences or styles. I am not enjoying any one horse here more than an other. They are all wonderful.

    The V's should be equal, no argument. I would look again at CG's picture, because I see the front V being quite a bit larger than the hind, mostly due to the fact that the foreleg is so back under his body and not left the fround yet.

    I really question why the purist factions overlook the hind leg in CG's picture which will indeed leave the ground before the foreleg. This is not only a sacrifice of balance, but also of purity, is it not? You will almost always lose purity when you sacrifice balance. But three of the other four pictures show to me what appears to be a pure trot. Granted different moments, and it's possible that they may suffer from the same problem, but general the more 'up' a horse is ridden, the more likely that the front leg will come off the ground with the hind leg.



  7. #187
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    Jun. 14, 2006
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    aregard, how can I make this clearer to you, so you will let it drop.

    I do not like mbm's attitude, her attitude does not make me want to help her, and I question the sincerity of her claims to only be oh so innocently merely looking to learn. Period.

    You baffled me once in this thread by claiming one of my critiques was arrogant, only to recant a few pages later. Now you're baffling me again with your stubborn defense of mbm, and I don't even see the point. At this point it is really becoming old and unworthy of further discussion, and I am finished discussing mbm with you. PM me if you like, it would probably be more appropriate.

    Patootie, DAP also comes into play in regard to the diagonal pairs landing/taking off together, and many of today's superhorses are being bred with gaits such as they have DAP naturally (in spite of the myth that it is rider created.) Just a thought to add. I am not disagreeing with you.

    A question for everyone about the parallel cannons. If you've gotten the absolute maximum engagement and stepping under that you can get out of the horse from the hindend, and yet he is still able to offer more IN FRONT, what would *you* do about it? I ask, because I can't see inhibiting the front legs, even if they are able to offer "more" than the horse is able to offer from the hind legs, and so when viewed in this context yes I would sacrifice some of the parallel cannons quality if the horse was able/willing to offer even MORE expression from the front legs/shoulders.



  8. #188
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    Jul. 16, 2006
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    I don't think you will get a free-er shoulder than this one. But both cannons are still even. It is more likely that with a free shoulder the shoulder can escape the rider if not carefully ridden. However when properly connected, generally the cannons will still match no matter what the angle of the shoulder.

    go to http://www.arnd.nl/ and type in image number 020902238.



  9. #189
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    why you would slap that boy down and say no, bad horse, no freedom of the shoulders! knock it off!



  10. #190
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    Mar. 30, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patootie
    Since when does the type of movement come into play? It shouldn't matter whether it moves like a park horse, a show hunter, or a washing machine. A horse is a horse. I'm not talking personal preferences or styles. I am not enjoying any one horse here more than an other. They are all wonderful.

    The V's should be equal, no argument. I would look again at CG's picture, because I see the front V being quite a bit larger than the hind, mostly due to the fact that the foreleg is so back under his body and not left the fround yet.

    I really question why the purist factions overlook the hind leg in CG's picture which will indeed leave the ground before the foreleg. This is not only a sacrifice of balance, but also of purity, is it not? You will almost always lose purity when you sacrifice balance. But three of the other four pictures show to me what appears to be a pure trot. Granted different moments, and it's possible that they may suffer from the same problem, but general the more 'up' a horse is ridden, the more likely that the front leg will come off the ground with the hind leg.
    Actually, I only think ONE of the four looks like the hind will push off at the same moment as the front. In the top photo, the left hind is already unweighted. In the next one if you compare the pastern angles, again, the right hind is not weight bearing, and the left front leg is. The chestnut in photo 3 looks better, but if I really wanted to pick nits, I might note that the pastern angles don't match, and the front leg is carrying more weight than the hind, indicating a possible dissociation - but honestly, I will say this one is 'pure'. The bottom black horse again shows an unweighting of the right hind while the left front is clearly still quite grounded.

    Do I like the CG photo - a bit more than the others, but still a sense of being held together by the rider's hands. Have I seen worse - Oh Yes - but since someone remarked that the 'purists' were overlooking problems, I will say, this photo doesn't represent the 'best extended trot photo ever' either. Believe me, I KNOW it is hard to produce the wow trot photos, timing the shot is only One aspect - and the other is compromising between what a majority of dressage people think looks 'right' vs what might be correct for the education of the hrose. Of course, the complete ideal will meet everyones expectations, but when you have to say "what is the first thing I need, and what's the last thing I will require? " then the whole picture changes. It is always about priorities, and sometimes if you get them in the wrong order, then you just can't get them all, ever. Some stuff Must come first, that is why there is a training scale. But when you are showing, or even schooling for a photo shoot, you often slip over the limit. Then something important falls away. Thatis the problem with going over the limit. So you try not to make a habit of it, and when you do slip past the point, you analyse and sort out what went wrong - because that becomes useful information - lemonade from lemons. The Nuno photo represents my ideal medium trot, and Klimke at the 84 Olympics is the ultimate extended trot picture. There are some other very good ones, but those are well known. This other stuff just compromises a little too much for my tastes.



  11. #191
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    Jul. 16, 2006
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    Default Slap your pony?

    LOL no you wouldn't slap him down. But again, if he was ridden properly through, the shoulder would not escape. As in that last picture on Bronhorsts website. She HAS Salinero right there. Cannons are parallel at the peak of the stride.



  12. #192
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    Mar. 30, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patootie
    I don't think you will get a free-er shoulder than this one. But both cannons are still even. It is more likely that with a free shoulder the shoulder can escape the rider if not carefully ridden. However when properly connected, generally the cannons will still match no matter what the angle of the shoulder.

    go to http://www.arnd.nl/ and type in image number 020902238.
    I am amazed that you think so. I am even MORE amazed at whom you chose to use as an example, because now if I don't just go OOOHH AAAHHH I am acused of Bashing AvG! Anyway, if you want to think that represents a good parallelogram, Okay Dokie. But don't expect everyone to agree with you. Mind you the angle of the photo makes it a little harder to see, but still.... oh, nevermind.



  13. #193
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    Jul. 16, 2006
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    Oh the virgin mother cares who the photo is of?? The simple fact is that I KNOW that she has a hugely talented horse with a VERY free shoulder, and has photos of her where she has 'nailed' her extended. yes, there are also some as well where she's also lost him either in front or behind. But I simply wanted to show a horse with a VERY free shoulder who could perform the extended trot with the cannon bones parallel to one another. But why can't we look for good sometimes and even possibly admit it exists? It was a quick and easy search, rather than spending tons of times sorting through other pictures to find just one.

    PERIOD.

    As for the parallelogram, that is not something anyone is quite qualified to judge from that particular angle I think. Unless you're computer could some how magically rotate your perspective.

    I don't have any expectations of anyone agreeing with me. I was making a statement, and threw up a photo to demonstrate. It IS possible. The fact that you may have a personal beef with the rider aboard is your problem not mine.

    Maybe it's not exactly me that's looking for everyone to agree with me. I think possibly that you may want to check the mirror next time for that one. Or maybe perhaps I shouldn't try to have an open conversation with someone who's named themselves after a steroid....just a thought.



  14. #194
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    Feb. 24, 1999
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    You were warned...



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