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  1. #61
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    I haven't posted much in the last few days because it just seemed silly to try and have any influence over people who so clearly have their mind made up and have the attitudes to prove it. BUT I have to say, the condescending attitude represented in this thread is proof of why I will be glad to go home. Throughout this bb, I have seen people confess that it is FUN to bait someone, Fun to insult people they don't even know.

    OK, lets stick to the point. Why would HS have his horse demonstrate flaws in the extended trot? Because currently, that is the style the judges give the highest marks to. Don't believe it? Fine. You can have your own reality, but When a horse does a reasonably Correct extension, but it isn't Great, it gets a 6 or 7. If a horse is pushed Over Tempo, Driven onto the riders hands, then the horse starts to fling the front legs, and trail the quarters. Guess what, the judges give That effort an 8 or 9. So, guess what I do when I show??? And if I am clever enough to sort that out, don't you think HS would know it also? Now, of Course, if a horse can do a Really Good Extended, then they will get the 8 or 9 or maybe even a 10 and NOT show the flaws inherent in over rounding the neck - but if you have to eek out points in a horses weak area, you do what you need to do.

    I am sorry that some of you believe that Just because the judges have been at their sport a long time they are incapable of being wrong. There seem to be some Very Big names who compete internationally who seem to see the same problems we do. In fact, Reiner Klimke talks about judges having the wrong priorities in his book Training the Young horse. And you even have the various heads of the FEI dressage TELLING judges where to put their emphasis. For a while it was simply accuracy - then it was flash - somehow everyone has forgotten balance, drive and freedom of shoulders from self carriage. We now have a rule that says the curb rein MUST have some tension in it???? But NO rule saying that a curb that is held horizontal must be severely penalized? Heaven forbid that someone ride a GP horse off their snaffle rein in a test.

    There is SO much circular logic presented here. I don't know HOW you folks manage to talk out of both sides of your mouth! But let me try and summarize what MBM was saying. HS placed 1st and 2nd in all the GP classes, with 2 different horses. HS is KNOWN to train in the traditional manner. It is nice to see that a classical trainer IS able to place near the top.

    Now, in the spanish interrogation that followed, the question was raised that in some photos, HS's horse shows the flaws that are also seen in horses trained in rolkur. I do not believe that anywhere did MBM say that was OK - she just said that it seems to be what earns high marks, and HS is doing what it takes to win. The DIFFERENCE is that Wansuella ONLY shows the btv, trailing quarters problems IN THE EXTENDED TROT PHOTO not throughout the test. Other horses are btv in Every Photo. They show a dip behind the saddle in every photo. IF you can't see that, oh well. At least MBM didn't start making excuses about how Wansuella and Forrest are not perfect horses, with difficult temperments, and it is amazing that HS is able to make them as good as they are!!!!! Again, I think the top riders in the world MUST be able to pick and choose, and I think the arguement that their horses are inherently flawed just seems a little silly.

    Now, I am sure you all will start to jump on me, and attack me, and that is fine - because I don't give a tiniest bit of a hoot about what you think of me. Now, MBM, take my hand and lets get out of this mud wrestling contest. I think the pig singing lessons are about to begin, and it could get irritating for all parties involved.



  2. #62
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    i can't even begin to respond to this. it's all just so far off base it's nearly impossible to respond to. i wrote a post and lost it and as much as i love to type, can't bring myself to write it again.

    go on you guys and enjoy yiourselves. this business of this 'disturbing trend' you're all convincing yourselves of (i especially like the part about 'high front leg and low hind leg') is an unstoppable BB phenomenon. have at it.

    I just have one question. WHY do you guys get so much pleasure out of continually running around beating your chest and screaming about how lousy dressage is, and judging is, and riders are, and horses are? You guys seem to just LOVE to talk about how everyone else in the world sucks. Everyone except you doesn't understand dressage, is corrupted, rides like crap...GOD I'd hate to live in the world you guys make for yourselves.

    Chicken Little is the King of the COH BB again.



  3. #63
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    eqipoize

    Mbm has slung an awful lot of mud at me so there are two sides here. It is just to point that she keeps touting the classical, when HS's horses have very much the same faults as the RK horses which she is continuous about berating the faults of the RK horses because of the way they are trained. It is the only reason for this mess here. Gump has balance' in his piaffe, worse than Sal in my opinion. His mare does not track up anymore than Sal in the extended trot. It is just that mbm is against the very training, and blames the problems of these horse on the training style, when HS's horse show the exact same problems. I hope the ruling about the curb is because when you ride the loose rein curb, the curb tends to clank against the horses teeth/mouth. I like this ruling and think it will be better for the horses comfort. As for the horizontal curbs, I see that a lot in all training styles. We are just tired of the iccidental stuff being blamed on a training method. Does that make sense?



  4. #64
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    Jul. 10, 2006
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    Fabulous post, Epi!!!!!

    SLC2, the sky IS falling. And has been falling since people took something used as a SAFTEY measure in the warmup arena for a VERY SPOOKY horse (Rembrant) and turned it into an ALL THE TIME TRAINING METHOD.

    Klimke has spoken about it. Walter Zettl has spoken about it.

    Do you folks ever LOOK at the horse's face when it's forced to his chest or between his knees???????????

    Horses For Life Magazine has a great photo spread and lots of good RK articles.

    www.horsesforlife.com

    Check this out.

    Also, try forcing YOUR head to YOUR chest for just 30 seconds. Do you want to stay like that or does it hurt?????

    Dressage used to be the discipline of harmony, the discipline for horse welfare.

    Now, it's just like all the others. Sure, there's some good left, but the HORSE and even the SPORT is being left behind in favor of ego and money.

    This is real and this is tragic.

    People have been yelling for quite a while, you're right. But nobody's listened and look what we have now.

    People, THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!!



  5. #65
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    Jul. 10, 2006
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    BTW, when you take out the mud slinging (which does happen from BOTH sides), what's left?

    Who is fighting for the HORSE?

    We ALL should be.

    Or we should move on to biking or some other sport where the "partner" really IS disposable, rather than a soul in a different suit.



  6. #66
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    tewhann

    Do you think that top atheletes in all sports, say gymnastics for example, are just suddenly put into the positions they have to perform at the top shows? Neither are the horses that are gymnasized to the positions they are ridden in for warm up. Extremes are what top athletes do in order to be at the top of their sport.



  7. #67
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    Jul. 10, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabryant
    tewhann

    Do you think that top atheletes in all sports, say gymnastics for example, are just suddenly put into the positions they have to perform at the top shows? Neither are the horses that are gymnasized to the positions they are ridden in for warm up. Extremes are what top athletes do in order to be at the top of their sport.
    Quite true. However, humans have the ability to choose what their bodies are put through. The horses do not.

    It is completely unnecessary to use RK on a horse in order to be at the top of the sport. This is a quite recent phenomenon that needs to be stopped in its tracks, IMHO.



  8. #68
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    Mar. 30, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2
    i can't even begin to respond to this. it's all just so far off base it's nearly impossible to respond to. i wrote a post and lost it and as much as i love to type, can't bring myself to write it again.
    Does that mean people will say you are 'flustered' and unable to reply, and we should stop bothering you because clearly you are in over your head? Just wondering how equally the judgements are applied around here.

    go on you guys and enjoy yiourselves. this business of this 'disturbing trend' you're all convincing yourselves of (i especially like the part about 'high front leg and low hind leg') is an unstoppable BB phenomenon. have at it.
    I am amazed you are unaware of the INTERNATIONAL discussions about current disturbing trends in dressage, you always seem to be 'in the know'.

    I just have one question. WHY do you guys get so much pleasure out of continually running around beating your chest and screaming about how lousy dressage is, and judging is, and riders are, and horses are? You guys seem to just LOVE to talk about how everyone else in the world sucks. Everyone except you doesn't understand dressage, is corrupted, rides like crap...GOD I'd hate to live in the world you guys make for yourselves.

    Chicken Little is the King of the COH BB again.
    I wouldn't say Everyone doesn't understand dressage, since I consider myself in good company with people like Reiner Klimke, Walter Zettl, Jap Pot, and everyone who is a member of Xenophon. I don't think "Dressage" is lousy, or I would take up barrel racing, or endurance riding, or start raising mini horses. I think Dressage is a fantastic concept, and when ridden in a holistic manner that honors the true nature of the horse, it offers opportunities to unite with another soul in the most pure manner. However, I also see many folks who actually LOVE their horses, and are doing the best they can, and yet, I see them being horribly misguided by the people they have chosen to help direct them towards that chance to be in harmony with their horse. And those guides ALSO love their horses, and actually think they DO know the way, but they are lost. And I was one of them. I know what it is like to keep fumbling along, thinking you have got 'IT', and then you take a lesson from someone else, and they say 'you are completely off track' and they would steer me in a New direction, and I think I have "IT" again, and still it wasn't quite right. Then, finally, with a little gift from the dressage gods, I met someone who really knows what IT is, and they showed me their version, and suddenly, the HORSE said "THAT'S IT" and Therein lies the difference. But, really, it is like evangalists who think they have spoken with God, and they believe they have seen His Face, and they really really BELIEVE they are guiding people towards heaven - and they, and their minons, are walking straight towards Hell. And they don't mean to misguide, they are simply misguided themselves. I only know that among Real mystics, there is no fooling anyone - those that have been there, instantly recognise others who have been there, and the rest of us just keep hoping. Funny thing is, I can recognise the ones who are the real deal too. Once I met one, all the other pretenders were easy to spot.
    Dressage grew too fast. Everyone wanted a piece of that magic, and people gots bits and pieces and then went out and handed out those bits and pieces as if they represented the whole picture, and now we are a couple teaching generations down the road, and there are so many well meaning wrong roads, and those of us who at least want to believe We are on the right path, hoot and Hollar to the others, waving our arms saying Over HERE- THIS is the way! Only because we want to spare the others from all those wasted years of meaning well, and still doing it wrong. And No, I cannot guarantee that I have Really seen the dressage light - but I can tell you that what I know and feel now is SO different from all that I was taught before, and the real difference is the horses, and how they act and what they OFFER, and there is no more 'make him do this, and that'. And then I look at the faces of the horses that are being ridden into horrible contortions, and I don't see any way to convince myself that those horses are willing partners, they LOOK miserable. Yes, the riders are taking the horses into extreme positions to 'get the most' out of them, but it is being forced on the horses, and THAT is what I object to, not so much the positioning, as the attitude behind it. Is the sky falling? Well, when a big chunk of blue hits you on your top hat, it sure seems like a wake up call. But I guess until it whacks you on your head, you will not believe. Fine - wander down as many roads as you want, I sure can't stop you. But I can offer an option to some others who might WANT to save all that aggrevation. AND I can complain about what is being represented as "Dressage" because I want to defend the sport in its most pure form. It may not make a difference, but then again, it may not make a difference that I recycle cans and bottles, turn off lights and save as much water as I can, and eat less beef. But I still do those things to, in the hope that it DOES make a difference. You don't like hearing people complain about the state of dressage? Put your hands over your ears and sing LaLaLaLaLa. Or not - it is your choice. I honestly do not know ANY other sport where people are not supposed to question the state of affairs - there are talk shows devoted to discussing baseball and football, and current rules and whether the officials made the right call, and MOST of the people discussing the stuff are just fans, they are not denied the right to express an opinion until they have played in the NBL or NFL, and NOBODY says How can you question the umpires! They have trained for Years to do what they do! So, it is about Passion. I LOVE this art/sport and I want Others to love it, and I want the HORSES to benefit from it, not suffer because of it. And I hate that so many horses are requiring hock injections, and People are told that their horse 'can't make it past 2nd level' - when the truth is, the TRAINER doesn't know how to help the horse past 2nd level. I don't like the current trends in the international ring, and I am not alone in that. You think that they look great, and it is OK to do what they do to their horses - well, I would hate to live in the world you live it - because you would NEVER have the relationship with horses that I know is possible. Because you can't have it as long as you Make horses do Anything. It isn't possible. It is a different sort of relationship. But you really wouldn't know that. And you can scream and yell and say that I don't know What kind of relationship you have with your horses, and that is true, but I CAN know what kind you Don't have, IF you think Rolkur training is an acceptable way to treat the noble spirit that resides inside horses. Because it Is NOT. And those of us that believe it have to keep saying it is unacceptable, because the horses can't.



  9. #69
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabryant
    eqipoize

    Mbm has slung an awful lot of mud at me so there are two sides here. It is just to point that she keeps touting the classical, when HS's horses have very much the same faults as the RK horses which she is continuous about berating the faults of the RK horses because of the way they are trained. It is the only reason for this mess here. Gump has balance' in his piaffe, worse than Sal in my opinion. His mare does not track up anymore than Sal in the extended trot. It is just that mbm is against the very training, and blames the problems of these horse on the training style, when HS's horse show the exact same problems. I hope the ruling about the curb is because when you ride the loose rein curb, the curb tends to clank against the horses teeth/mouth. I like this ruling and think it will be better for the horses comfort. As for the horizontal curbs, I see that a lot in all training styles. We are just tired of the iccidental stuff being blamed on a training method. Does that make sense?
    okay, sabyrant - i have tried many times to cross the gulf between us and have said repeatedly that perhaps i am misunderstanding you, maybe there is a language issue, a comprehension issue (mine) etc etc... i have tried to understand you. really i have. and i keep offering olive branches and i keep asking for clarification - and you keep saying over and over that i keep slinging mud at you and that i keep going on and on about the errors of RK horses.....

    at this point i am going to conclude that you have no interest in my attemps at understanding you and/or your points of view.

    i *really* would like to see my posts where i go on and on and where i *continually* sling mud. seriously. you posted some links a few days ago that supposedly showed me at my worst but i didnt find anything that would support that.

    i swear you are taking about a different person.... that you have me mixed up with another poster.

    as for the rest of your post - i NEVER made any comments about anything other than to say that contrary to what many people say, classical horses are WINNING. i made no other statement about anything, nor did i argue at all about HS or his horses or his faults etc.

    its nice to be thought of as this monster and i am really enjoying the power (especially the part of being known worldwide) , but seriously..... i aint all that



  10. #70
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by eqipoize
    Now, MBM, take my hand and lets get out of this mud wrestling contest. I think the pig singing lessons are about to begin, and it could get irritating for all parties involved.
    thanks you eqipoize for actually reading what i wrote *and* for the offer out of the mud.....

    ????pig singing lessons????

    now that is fodder for a vivid imagination



  11. #71
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    Mar. 30, 2006
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    Surely you know the old saying
    "Don't bother - it's like trying to teach pigs to sing - it just wastes your time and it only irritates the pigs". With all the mention of Mud, I thought maybe we were in a pig sty - however, we may just be among GOATS!



  12. #72
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    Jul. 19, 2001
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    Not very nice to be calling mbm a peeg, moanie.



  13. #73
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    Jan. 22, 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by egontoast
    Not very nice to be calling mbm a peeg, moanie.
    Aahhh, now the penny drops, thanks for enlightening me eggy. Well the udbb is back up now so it should be business as usual here when they go bak to their little community. Not that that is necessarily a good thing, love a bit of bif, but with the same old people, blah..............

    Same old people under different names, the pond of anky bashers is shrinking..........



  14. #74
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkj
    I agree some with all of you on both sides.

    I do think a halo effect exists to some degree in most every judged sport. Ice skating, dressage what have you. Judges are human. For example I was always an A student. I think sometimes I could slack off a bit and still get that A with certain teachers. They just saw me as an A student even when maybe I wasn't doing my best or as good as someone else. Sometimes it is hard just to judge the performance at hand and this does not exist in a vacuum.

    I think Anky is absolutely incredible. I think she has done a fabulous job with some not the best in the world horses for example Painted Black. I don't think his gaits are that great and Anky can pretty much bring the best out of any horse. There are very few people in the world like that. It is a huge gift and skill and I respect it. I would like her a lot more if she weren't with that Sjeff. He really rubs me the wrong way and I hope someday she dumps him (but of course it is none of my business and doesn't affect what a phenomenal rider she is) I don't like the Rolkur pics and I have thought Salinero a bit tense, but as a team they are still incredible and amazing to watch. However she gets it done it is amazing in my opinion. I have also noticed that some of the people who supposably have the classically trained anti Rolkur horses like Bretinna and Wamsuela have horses that do appear a bit more stiff. Why I don't have the sophitication to say, but I have noticed it.

    So I think maybe sometimes Anky and Salinero have received scores that were a little high. I thought Lingh should have beat Salinero in the Vegas World cup. I thought his gaits were more pure and it was more correct. (but he uses Rolkur too so go figure) I am no qualified judge though and thought Ankys ride was pretty spectacular too.

    Those of you who know a lot about it, what are parallel cannons at the trot? What is the trend in breeding in Holland? It seems like a lot of horses bred specifically for dressage these days don't have the best hind end, engine. I worry with further specialization this will get worse. Again I am no expert but the keuring I went to last year it seemed to me that two of the KWPN mares that got keur did not have hind ends I thought were the best for correct upper level dressage. Amazing in front however.

    kkj, nice post and nice questions asked! Parallel cannons means that you want to see a parallelogram between the hind/front cannon bones in the trot. It is my theory that over the years different styles of horses come to be highlighted for sales reasons. I mentioned before in a post, one of Germany and Hollands biggest industries is the horse industry. The style, that happens to be winning in the dressage arena, is shown at the auctions in a variety of versions. The favored style at the moment is the fabulous front end action and not much behind action. Some very skilled riders can compensate with, say, a different training method to connect these types of horses and get better (maybe not ideal, but much better) action from behind. Generally, they are built more uphill and, without so much action from behind, are easier to sit. What more could an American rider want?? With a bit of a different training method (from the ODG's,) this style horse can be, with a good foundation, made to perform very brilliantly. Hope that helps.



  15. #75
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by tewhann
    Quite true. However, humans have the ability to choose what their bodies are put through. The horses do not.

    It is completely unnecessary to use RK on a horse in order to be at the top of the sport. This is a quite recent phenomenon that needs to be stopped in its tracks, IMHO.
    And why would anyone who loves the horse ever put them through something they did not want to do. Did they want to be ridden at all? My horse doesn't seem to mind. Nor does she mind any kind of muscling as long as I put it there slowly. I wouldn't expect a beginner gymnist to do the splits no less than I would expect a green horse to perform RK. It is a system of building muscles in the same way for horses as a gymnist. Granted, there are people that don't get this principle and it is from them that a system of training gets a bad reputation.



  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by eqipoize
    I haven't posted much in the last few days because it just seemed silly to try and have any influence over people who so clearly have their mind made up and have the attitudes to prove it. BUT I have to say, the condescending attitude represented in this thread is proof of why I will be glad to go home. Throughout this bb, I have seen people confess that it is FUN to bait someone, Fun to insult people they don't even know.

    OK, lets stick to the point. Why would HS have his horse demonstrate flaws in the extended trot? Because currently, that is the style the judges give the highest marks to. Don't believe it? Fine. You can have your own reality, but When a horse does a reasonably Correct extension, but it isn't Great, it gets a 6 or 7. If a horse is pushed Over Tempo, Driven onto the riders hands, then the horse starts to fling the front legs, and trail the quarters. Guess what, the judges give That effort an 8 or 9. So, guess what I do when I show??? And if I am clever enough to sort that out, don't you think HS would know it also? Now, of Course, if a horse can do a Really Good Extended, then they will get the 8 or 9 or maybe even a 10 and NOT show the flaws inherent in over rounding the neck - but if you have to eek out points in a horses weak area, you do what you need to do.

    I am sorry that some of you believe that Just because the judges have been at their sport a long time they are incapable of being wrong. There seem to be some Very Big names who compete internationally who seem to see the same problems we do. In fact, Reiner Klimke talks about judges having the wrong priorities in his book Training the Young horse. And you even have the various heads of the FEI dressage TELLING judges where to put their emphasis. For a while it was simply accuracy - then it was flash - somehow everyone has forgotten balance, drive and freedom of shoulders from self carriage. We now have a rule that says the curb rein MUST have some tension in it???? But NO rule saying that a curb that is held horizontal must be severely penalized? Heaven forbid that someone ride a GP horse off their snaffle rein in a test.

    There is SO much circular logic presented here. I don't know HOW you folks manage to talk out of both sides of your mouth! But let me try and summarize what MBM was saying. HS placed 1st and 2nd in all the GP classes, with 2 different horses. HS is KNOWN to train in the traditional manner. It is nice to see that a classical trainer IS able to place near the top.

    Now, in the spanish interrogation that followed, the question was raised that in some photos, HS's horse shows the flaws that are also seen in horses trained in rolkur. I do not believe that anywhere did MBM say that was OK - she just said that it seems to be what earns high marks, and HS is doing what it takes to win. The DIFFERENCE is that Wansuella ONLY shows the btv, trailing quarters problems IN THE EXTENDED TROT PHOTO not throughout the test. Other horses are btv in Every Photo. They show a dip behind the saddle in every photo. IF you can't see that, oh well. At least MBM didn't start making excuses about how Wansuella and Forrest are not perfect horses, with difficult temperments, and it is amazing that HS is able to make them as good as they are!!!!! Again, I think the top riders in the world MUST be able to pick and choose, and I think the arguement that their horses are inherently flawed just seems a little silly.

    Now, I am sure you all will start to jump on me, and attack me, and that is fine - because I don't give a tiniest bit of a hoot about what you think of me. Now, MBM, take my hand and lets get out of this mud wrestling contest. I think the pig singing lessons are about to begin, and it could get irritating for all parties involved.
    I refer you to the last paragraph of your post. I believe it is you that stated, first and foremost, that this was another mud wrestling contest!! Maybe the revolving, circular post would resolve themselves if you could remember the mud you've already slung.



  17. #77
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    First of all, I don't know what MUD I have slung - I think I have managed to be sufficiently restrained. I have made a few snide comments but mostly I have turned people's words back on them. Again, tell me where i have insulted an individual. I have at worst said that in my opinion, if someone supports rolkur training, then they have a mind set that precludes working in harmony with the horse's willing and giving nature. If you Do work with your hrose, and don't Make him do stuff, then you are Not included in the comment. And I don't know who Moanie is???



  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by eqipoize
    I haven't posted much in the last few days because it just seemed silly to try and have any influence over people who so clearly have their mind made up and have the attitudes to prove it. BUT I have to say, the condescending attitude represented in this thread is proof of why I will be glad to go home. Throughout this bb, I have seen people confess that it is FUN to bait someone, Fun to insult people they don't even know.

    OK, lets stick to the point. Why would HS have his horse demonstrate flaws in the extended trot? Because currently, that is the style the judges give the highest marks to. Don't believe it? Fine. You can have your own reality, but When a horse does a reasonably Correct extension, but it isn't Great, it gets a 6 or 7. If a horse is pushed Over Tempo, Driven onto the riders hands, then the horse starts to fling the front legs, and trail the quarters. Guess what, the judges give That effort an 8 or 9. So, guess what I do when I show??? And if I am clever enough to sort that out, don't you think HS would know it also? Now, of Course, if a horse can do a Really Good Extended, then they will get the 8 or 9 or maybe even a 10 and NOT show the flaws inherent in over rounding the neck - but if you have to eek out points in a horses weak area, you do what you need to do.

    I am sorry that some of you believe that Just because the judges have been at their sport a long time they are incapable of being wrong. There seem to be some Very Big names who compete internationally who seem to see the same problems we do. In fact, Reiner Klimke talks about judges having the wrong priorities in his book Training the Young horse. And you even have the various heads of the FEI dressage TELLING judges where to put their emphasis. For a while it was simply accuracy - then it was flash - somehow everyone has forgotten balance, drive and freedom of shoulders from self carriage. We now have a rule that says the curb rein MUST have some tension in it???? But NO rule saying that a curb that is held horizontal must be severely penalized? Heaven forbid that someone ride a GP horse off their snaffle rein in a test.

    There is SO much circular logic presented here. I don't know HOW you folks manage to talk out of both sides of your mouth! But let me try and summarize what MBM was saying. HS placed 1st and 2nd in all the GP classes, with 2 different horses. HS is KNOWN to train in the traditional manner. It is nice to see that a classical trainer IS able to place near the top.

    Now, in the spanish interrogation that followed, the question was raised that in some photos, HS's horse shows the flaws that are also seen in horses trained in rolkur. I do not believe that anywhere did MBM say that was OK - she just said that it seems to be what earns high marks, and HS is doing what it takes to win. The DIFFERENCE is that Wansuella ONLY shows the btv, trailing quarters problems IN THE EXTENDED TROT PHOTO not throughout the test. Other horses are btv in Every Photo. They show a dip behind the saddle in every photo. IF you can't see that, oh well. At least MBM didn't start making excuses about how Wansuella and Forrest are not perfect horses, with difficult temperments, and it is amazing that HS is able to make them as good as they are!!!!! Again, I think the top riders in the world MUST be able to pick and choose, and I think the arguement that their horses are inherently flawed just seems a little silly.

    Now, I am sure you all will start to jump on me, and attack me, and that is fine - because I don't give a tiniest bit of a hoot about what you think of me. Now, MBM, take my hand and lets get out of this mud wrestling contest. I think the pig singing lessons are about to begin, and it could get irritating for all parties involved.
    How about the first paragraph...we are condescending, silly to try to influence minds are already made up with attitudes to prove it, you will be glad to go home! I have never heard a soul on this board say that they thought it was fun to bait someone and fun to insult people they don't know.



  19. #79
    Join Date
    Jan. 4, 2000
    Posts
    24,408

    Default

    i absolutely love the 'I'm sorry that you believe' tack. That's priceless.

    You guys need to relax a little bit.



  20. #80
    Join Date
    Jul. 19, 2001
    Posts
    8,542

    Default

    am amazed you are unaware of the INTERNATIONAL discussions about current disturbing trends in dressage
    Wow. International!! Try thinking for yourself.



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