[nero]

OK, just so ESG and others can have another opportunity to call me ridiculous!! I thought I'd ask a question (hopefully the response will be a little more civil!). I've been looking at pics of Weltall and Farbenfroh, probably the two most expressive horses from recent years on the shoulder reach department to see if it is possible for a horse to be engaged behind AND still exhibit more reach and scope in front. If you go to www.arnd.nl and search the database for Farbenfroh and Weltall I think you will see examples of where this does happen. Two well engaged horses who both have substantial overtrack but still have more reach in front than behind. Particulalry Farbenfroh, I just do not see how it would be physically possible for the horse to parallel canons, but I still think he is engaged. In particualr image numbers 020701480, 010813154, 000717912 and 010618114 for Farbenfroh. Just go to link, click on search database and type his name into the search field.

I'd prefer not to be called ridiculous if that's possible for suggesting this, just trying to train my eye, I'm no dummie, but maybe you'll disagree and I can have my incorrectness explained! ;-)

[Dalfan]

I think you are talking about the angles of the diagonal hind cannon/fore FOREARM (not fore cannon) that should be the same. Yes??

Edit; If that is the case, none of the pictures show an equal angle

[nero]

I think you are talking about the angles of the diagonal hind cannon/fore FOREARM (not fore cannon) that should be the same. Yes??

Um, maybe I thought it was suppose to be the two canons, but open to suggestions.

[nhwr]

Looking at some photos, this doesn't seem to be much of an issue for Weltall. His legs look parallel to my eye for the most part. With Farbenfroh, this is not the case. Look at 000717912 and 010618114. Expressive in front? Sure, but not really engaged, IMO. Engagement isn't simply overtrack and expression. It is flexing the joints, particularly the hocks and connection through the back.

Also the definition of extended trot states that the legs should be parallel (I agree, FWIW). So to be good thats gotta be there or the definition needs to change

[Dalfan]

No, it is the fore forearm and the hind cannon of the diagonal pairs that should be of equal angles. Also you notice that the space between the forelegs and the space between the hindlegs are not equal, indicating less activity in the hind and more extravagance in the front. Not saying the pics/riders are not nice, just observations and indicators.

[Horsedances]

While i was working through some old scrapbooks.

www.horsedances.net/Favo03.wmv

and a much bigger file from Herr Doctor Balkenholl

www.horsedances.net/Balk03.wmv

Enjoy,

Theo

[Dalfan]

Horsedances; not getting the second vid. starts to open then goes kaput. Love the slo-mo of the first vid, really nice.

[nero]

OK, but putting aside what we know is correct through experience with dressage and what the judges want, what about those horses that are freakishly expressive in front and do have more freedom in the shoulder than is physically capable from the hind, because a horse is super free in front does this mean that the are not using their hind properly? Sorry if this doesn't make sense but I know what I'm trying to say, just not doing it very well.

[Horsedances]

Horsedances; not getting the second vid. starts to open then goes kaput. Love the slo-mo of the first vid, really nice.

The first clips is < 1 MB, the second is >20 MB so click with your right mouse button on the link and chose for save target as, and you have KB dancing on your own computer.

Theo

[kkj]

Thanks Theo. I love the videos.

What happened to Weltall? I haven't heard about him lately. Man I almost forgot how amazing he is. I just love watching that horse (wouldn't ever try to ride him though). Farbenfroh retired from injury right? He was pretty spectacular to but not so much as Weltall.

[egontoast]

Farbenfroh is deceased.

[Dalfan]

Thanks for the vids, horsedances. What a beautiful rider.

[merrygoround]

Thank you HORSEDANCES, from here. I only wish on my screen it came up lighter on the KB video, so I could better watch KB, the rider.

[canyonoak]

So who are horse/rider in the short clip?

[sabryant]

I'm with you, Nero on the parallelogram being the cannon bones front/back. I couldn't get the pictures to come up but I did get the video to p[lay. That first horse, in videos, has the bounce and the engagement, finally! I think with this style horse that there is a moment...I see it in a lot of pictures (at the very begin of each trot stride where the hind leg is behind the front leg. Hind rolls out behind before stepping under but it does eventually catch up...could be why you never see them sit in the down transitions back to collected trot. I have never had this talent of horse to prepare so feel like I caan't make an opinion on whether it is the style of horse (which is where I tend to lean) or if it is training.

[Sabine]

Thank you Theo- so good to have you here- let's all send him some cookies...LOL!

I love the first horse- I think there is true paralell-ness in a stance of time during the huge movement he displays with a very good and following rider- with excellent hands- not getting in the way at all...and that was a bunch of bounces to sit through...wow.
With KB- it seems that the horse is working from a very strong shoulder-chestarea and actually propelling more from there than from behind- maybe some of this is physically predisposed and not just a training/riding issue...just like some peeps are very strong in their shoulders and arms- and others are very strong in their pelvis and thighs...just musing...??

[sabryant]

Thank you Theo- so good to have you here- let's all send him some cookies...LOL!

I love the first horse- I think there is true paralell-ness in a stance of time during the huge movement he displays with a very good and following rider- with excellent hands- not getting in the way at all...and that was a bunch of bounces to sit through...wow.
With KB- it seems that the horse is working from a very strong shoulder-chestarea and actually propelling more from there than from behind- maybe some of this is physically predisposed and not just a training/riding issue...just like some peeps are very strong in their shoulders and arms- and others are very strong in their pelvis and thighs...just musing...??

Muse away there, my friend! I tend to agree with you and I think cookies for Theo are, indeed, a great idea! Anybody remember that stallion Bonjour? He had that wonderful front end and the hindend to match but no one could sit his trot. Though I think V gave it a darn good try. Wonder what the human spine would look like on xray after sitting that for a couple years?

[Sabine]

Muse away there, my friend! I tend to agree with you and I think cookies for Theo are, indeed, a great idea! Anybody remember that stallion Bonjour? He had that wonderful front end and the hindend to match but no one could sit his trot. Though I think V gave it a darn good try. Wonder what the human spine would look like on xray after sitting that for a couple years?

Me thinks it would be like one of those sessions that we all dread with the vet- when you look at x-rays and the edges of the bone look kind of frayed...

SAB who is V? do you know who the rider/horse combo is in the first video??

[sabryant]

Voker Bromman used to ride Bonjour! I don't know who the combo is in the first video. Hoping Theo will enlighten us???

[Horsedances]

Voker Bromman used to ride Bonjour! I don't know who the combo is in the first video. Hoping Theo will enlighten us???

The first videoclip is Alexandra Simmons-de Ridder and the late Chacomo.
You can hear the very knowledgable German commentator say, "this is the most wonderfull extended trot i ever saw"

I just throwed this clip in because (like I said before) you can hardly judge a horse or rider by a picture.

Enjoy,

Theo