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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2004
    Location
    Pinon Hills
    Posts
    112

    Default

    Ah, good point. I also never, ever leave my horses without someone I know well watching them at shows or other strange places. I've sometimes had other competitors I don't know ask me to watch their horse while they go to the show office or to the potty, which I gladly do. But I wouldn't do that myself if I could avoid it.
    I've gone to a couple shows alone, but these were places where I knew I could bring my horse with me to the show office or the snack bar. If I had to pee, I went in my trailer.
    Luckily, we're usually at a friend's ranch or some other familiar place, and are always in the line of sight of our horses ... or there is someone we trust to keep an eye on them for us if we go anywhere.
    --------------------------------------------
    BTW: I've had two extremely talented and GORGEOUS dressage prospects offered to me for a steal on different occasions, but they had serious issues with tying. Somebody taught them how NOT to tie well, as in they knew if they pulled back hard enough and long enough, that something eventually would break and they'd be free. They got a little better while they were here for a few months, but never would completely get over it.
    In fact, one pulled back and flipped over the first time it was tied because it couldn't break free. I wasn't informed of this "issue" beforehand, or I wouldn't have tied it like a normal horse gets tied at my place. Thank God I know how to tie a bowline knot. I used Blocker tie rings after that so nobody got killed.
    But see what happens when they know they can get away if they pull really really hard? Also, both horses REALLY pulled back when I tried to put them in crossties (which I also really HATE.)
    I decided to let both go because how the heck could I take them anywhere? Under saddle, these were dreamhorses. But not tying is a hole in a horse that is just way too big to deal with IMO.



  2. #62
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    11,522

    Default

    I think the issues are subtler than just obedience or ground manners and especially important in dressage. Horses are, by nature, herd animals. When we ask them to perform in the dressage ring, we are asking to be seperate from the herd and shine. This is hard for them, though harder for some than others. I believe that a horse that can be content on its own, seperate from other horses, can focus and perform better because they have the "inner resources" to keep themselves together. Tying them as I have described is a way to facilitate the development of those "inner resources". And once a horse can do it, I try to do it with each horse once a week or so because it is something outside of their nature, a skill that they need to practice to be good at. It is no more cruel to leave a horse tied in a shady spot for an hour or two without food or water than it is to have them outside of their stall or paddock for a ride for that period of time. In fact, it is properly easier on them physically. Plus, if they are bored (boredom is a type of stress), they learn to deal with it in a relatively peaceful envirnoment. And as I come and go, in and out of their "bubble", it facilitates bonding between us. It is not about leaving a horse unattended tied to a trailer. But if the situation arose where I had to do that for a short period of time, as it could at a horse show, I'd have a lot more confidence about the situation for having done this. It is a good thing
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  3. #63
    Join Date
    Aug. 7, 2005
    Location
    Southern California/Muenchen
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabine
    .... What I tried to say which I guess was not understood is- that I would not leave my horse tied to the trailer and walk away at a show...-.....

    read it please....WALK AWAY!

    that's why you don't go alone to a show- bring a friend, a groom, a SO or anyone that can help and understands....



  4. #64
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    11,522

    Default Not always possible

    It is a lot easier to teach a horse to tie reliably than it is to get my husband to come to a horse show

    Seriously, having an extra set of hands can be helpful. But having people around isn't guarantee that the horse won't be injured. The real issue is whether the horse ties safely or not and how it is tied, IMO.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  5. #65
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2005
    Posts
    7,320

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    I see that my giving to pressure theory flew right over the kookoo's nest.... Hmmmmmmm

    Horses aren't people. They don't have the same expectations or desires as people. It seems very odd to me when people expect that they do. Leaving a horse tied for awhile at a horseshow is certainly no worse for them than leaving them standing in a stall all day.
    If you don't mind, would you please send some of that common sense fairy dust to people in need?



  6. #66
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    11,522

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    I see that my giving to pressure theory flew right over the kookoo's nest.... Hmmmmmmm
    No, BtR. I think giving to pressure is an important factor. But it is the beginning of the process in my mind. I was trying to think of a term to describe the quality I am thinking of. The best I can come up with is self-pacification.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  7. #67
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2005
    Posts
    7,320

    Default

    I was just making a general teasing sorta statement, not really adressing you per se...just so you know ....



  8. #68
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2004
    Posts
    826

    Default no,

    "I see that my giving to pressure theory flew right over the kookoo's nest.... Hmmmmmmm"

    no, i got it, and i agree with you and nhwr.(what IS it with people who have difficult initials as their board names?!?!?!)



  9. #69
    Join Date
    Oct. 14, 2004
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    9,067

    Default

    The Quarter Horses where I board are usually started by tying to learn patience. We have a very thick rope hanging from the steel girders in the indoor. It is lowered just enough to clip onto the nose band of the halter.

    It is used for the started horses also. This teaches them that they are not going back to their stalls or turnout soon as work is over. Once they learn they are not going anywhere they relax and I have yet to see a horse get *stupid* on them yet. IMO it is an important training tool.
    MnToBe Twinkle Star: "Twinkie"
    http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/f...wo/009_17A.jpg

    Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!



  10. #70
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2005
    Posts
    7,320

    Default

    Great - now all the people I expected to understand the whole concept are responding....



  11. #71
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2003
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    395

    Default

    What about in Pony Club, a highly respected organization with impeccable safety rules? Horses are expected to stand quietly tied to a trailer all day during a rally--and during the awards ceremony etc. you cannot hold them (unless there is a major emergency) so your horse had better have good enough manners to stay tied to a trailer.

    If our 3 horses (4th level, PSG, GP dressage horses) can do it, so can yours. They have hay and water, they are supervised, tied with breakaway halters and a cotton lead rope to breakable baling twine. It is neither cruel nor unsafe, they are very happy to stand and eat all day.



  12. #72
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2006
    Location
    Northglenn, CO
    Posts
    413

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by raffadasmom
    Because my horses are not people, that's why.
    No offense, but what kind of a sheltered life have you and your horses been living? Don't you ever haul somewhere to go on a nice trail ride? Do you ever go to one-day schooling shows where there aren't stalls available?
    Or do your horses spend 23 hours a day in a 12x12 box stall?
    THAT, IMO, is a horribly sad existence for a horse.
    I have four geldings that will -- dare I say -- contentedly kick back while tied to the trailer for hours, munching all-they-can-eat hay out of their hay bags and drinking out of a big bucket attached to the side of the trailer. There usually are two or more of them when I haul somewhere, so they are not alone. Not to mention other horses tied to trailers around them for company.
    I also situate the trailer so they have shade. I have a long four-horse trailer and they are tied high but loose enough so they have about 8 feet to move around and look around. Sometimes they'll even take a nap while standing there.
    Don't show, I find that life to be sad for a horse. As soon as your rider decides they want to move ahead, this horse is sold. Maybe I'm odd in that I have a real bond with my horse, I don't look at her as a commodity to earn me accolades.

    Box stall? Good lord, assume much? She has 20 acres of land with ONE other horse. She takes several gallops around the property every day, greets the jumpers on the east side of the property and the Paso Finos on the other. NOt a rough life, if I say so myself.

    Don't trailer her anywhere, I have miles and miles of trails to ride on. No point in spending gas money to drive somewhere when all we need (fresh air, open trails, etc) are right where we are.

    Maybe my mistake is thinking she deserves to be treated as I would like to be treated. For what it's worth, he ha impeccable ground manners. I'd never leave her tied for a long time, because there's no point. If I don't need her, she can go back to being a horse.

    Oh wait, being a horse is wrong. They are supposed to be little dolls to do with what we wish. My bad.
    Enjoying the scenery out on the trails with my 1993 American Quarter Horse mare, Mollys Baby Pearls.



  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2006
    Location
    Northglenn, CO
    Posts
    413

    Default

    and... at the risk of stirring up the pot...

    Horses don't have the same desires and emotions as people. Several of you have agreed with that statement. So why do the anti-slaughter folks attach human emotions to horses in the killpens?

    You can't have it both ways. Just some... food for thought. (bad choice of words, but my mind escapes further analogies)
    Enjoying the scenery out on the trails with my 1993 American Quarter Horse mare, Mollys Baby Pearls.



  14. #74
    Join Date
    Oct. 8, 2004
    Location
    B.F.E
    Posts
    1,764

    Default Re:Tying a horse for a long time

    I am gonna chime in here and take a chance at getting slammed, but my horse stays on a 30 foot tie line tied to a stake in the ground, for 4 to 6 hours a day. This is so he can graze.We have an acre and we dont have to mow. It will all be fenced in soon, but right now, there is only 1/3 acre fenced, he spends the rest of his time there. He is fine with it, and he is a Thoroughbred. I plan to do CTR with him in the distant future, they have to be able to stand tied allnight, however they are tied so they can still lie down, but not get their leg over the tie. Just my 2 cents.

    Cheryl



  15. #75
    Join Date
    Feb. 11, 2004
    Location
    Ga
    Posts
    2,109

    Default

    I just have to ask you folks: how many of you would buy a horse knowing it would not stand tied? I don't mean stand tied for hours, but not stand tied for a few minutes?

    The number one and number two question I get asked when selling a horse is: Does she load and will she stand tied?

    So I was curious - would you buy one that wouldn't tie knowing that fact upfront?



  16. #76
    Join Date
    Nov. 26, 2003
    Location
    Baltimore, MD, USA
    Posts
    395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MBPearls
    Don't show, I find that life to be sad for a horse. As soon as your rider decides they want to move ahead, this horse is sold. Maybe I'm odd in that I have a real bond with my horse, I don't look at her as a commodity to earn me accolades.

    Box stall? Good lord, assume much? She has 20 acres of land with ONE other horse. She takes several gallops around the property every day, greets the jumpers on the east side of the property and the Paso Finos on the other. NOt a rough life, if I say so myself.

    Don't trailer her anywhere, I have miles and miles of trails to ride on. No point in spending gas money to drive somewhere when all we need (fresh air, open trails, etc) are right where we are.

    Maybe my mistake is thinking she deserves to be treated as I would like to be treated. For what it's worth, he ha impeccable ground manners. I'd never leave her tied for a long time, because there's no point. If I don't need her, she can go back to being a horse.

    Oh wait, being a horse is wrong. They are supposed to be little dolls to do with what we wish. My bad.

    So now it's cruel to sell a horse? I'd rather my horse be sold to a good home where he can do the kind of work that he enjoys and is capable of, and so I can advance my riding with a suitable horse, than make him repeat the same things over and over because he can't advance and neither can I.

    Most people are not lucky enough to have miles of trails, and it's healthy for a horse to leave the property in a trailer and see a new location. Good for desensitization.

    Our horses spend most of their time being horses, enjoy their work, and have all worked happily well into their 20s. They are not dolls, but they must behave as I tell them to, because I am the one providing food, shelter, a safe place to live, and hoof and vet care. All I require is polite manners in exchange for a life that consist mainly of eating and sleeping. Asking the horse to work for an hour 3-5 days a week doing something he enjoys is not cruel, and neither is asking him to stand quietly and EAT for a few hours.



  17. #77
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    11,522

    Default MBPearls, you are my least favorite type of equestrian.

    Maybe my mistake is thinking she deserves to be treated as I would like to be treated. For what it's worth, he ha impeccable ground manners. I'd never leave her tied for a long time, because there's no point. If I don't need her, she can go back to being a horse.

    Oh wait, being a horse is wrong. They are supposed to be little dolls to do with what we wish. My bad.
    FWIW, it is a mistake to think that she "deserves" to be treated as you would like to be treated. Do you make her diet conform to human standards? Is it of great concern to you that she is illiterate? Aren't you worried that she doesn't have the right to vote? Sheesh, this is a really faulty line of reasoning.

    Riding has nothing to do with "being a horse". Some horses actually like to be ridden and enjoy human interaction but it is never their idea If you really think it is their "right" to live the life evolution set out for them, how do justify riding at all?
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  18. #78
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    794

    Wink

    Quote Originally Posted by MBPearls
    How many people here would stand in one place for hours without fidgeting? Why should your horse be expected to stand tied for hours on the side of a trailer so you can wander around, chat, have fun?

    Seems rather... odd... to me.

    My mare stands still when tied, but I don't make it last hours, because I don't have the desire to. Maybe since I don't live on the property she's at (an hour away, actually) and my time with her is limited, I find making her do "silly pet tricks" a waste of my horse time. She's well mannered while I groom, saddle, etc. If I planned on leaving her for "a few hours" I'd just take her back to her stall/pasture. Why make her stand around all tied up when I obviously have more important things to do?
    MB PEARLS, Have you considered that horses stand a majority of their day??? Wouldn't the question posed be more fair if you asked others if they could sit for long periods? People sit on couches, in cars and classrooms, offices everyday, it is often part of their education and work duties. It is not 'fair' to ask a person if they could stand that long. Horses are made to stand when at rest, people sit when at rest....comparing if people could stand as long as horses can is not a good/fair comparison.

    I doubt that you could exhist on the amount of sleep horses get either...or carry weight that they do, there are simply some comparisons here that are rediculous, you are talking about totally different species. I think my horse lays down for less than an hour a day, how can you compare that to a person who typically lays down 8-10 hours a day? And how often do people sit? A horse is not like you, and can stand WAY longer than you can, by nature...just like a horse can stand within an hour of being born, nurse on his own and run right away---people simply are not horses and thinking that you ask a question, simply there is no comparison between horses and people.

    By the way, you may or may not have been referring to my stallion with the silly pet trick comment...though just in case it was Shadrach you were aiming at..you should know I have owned that stallion since before he was weaned, and he learned all his 'silly pet tricks' before he was under saddle, and he loves to drink gatorade and pepsi out of the bottle or can, not picky about which one....though this is probably a waste of time too? I think he is a cool horse that knows a lot And love his tricks!!
    ~*Ride Far*~Ride Well~*~ The Sky's the Limit~
    www.firstgiving.com/christinahyke



  19. #79
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2004
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by kkj
    I don't see how it can be cruel to teach a horse to react in a safe way.
    I'll go farther, and say I think it's cruel not to do what we can to teach our horses to react safely whenever possible.

    There are probably all kinds of valid reasons not to cross-tie/straight-tie/leave tied/whatever. But, however we might choose to handle our horses, I think we have a responsibility to make sure that they aren't the ones who pay the price if someone else handles them differently than we do at some point. And the truth is that we just can't ensure that that will never happen--someone else who doesn't know that our horse can't cross-tie/straight-tie/be left alone while tied/whatever might handle our horse in an emergency or by mistake (or even on purpose), or we might find ourselves stuck somewhere in an emergency with no alternative.

    Even if such occurrences are vanishingly unlikely in your particular situation, why the heck would you bet your horse's life on it?

    By all means, act as you think safest and best from day to day. But, for your horse's sake, work with him to maximize the chances that if he were tied up and left alone,* he wouldn't get hurt.

    That said, I haven't used these myself, but the Blocker tie rings seem like a really good way to make tying safer (both teaching and in general).

    *or any other practice reasonably common among horsepeople that one chooses to avoid for whatever reason.



  20. #80
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    794

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr
    How many people would consent to being hauled to a remote location, tacked up and ridden through a dressage test? Why do you expect that because you enjoy something your horse does? Or conversely because you would find something problematic, your horse would? They may or may not.

    Horses aren't people.
    Somehow NHWR, when I read that I could see hords of people spooking at walmart because of bags blowing across the parking lot!!!!!
    ~*Ride Far*~Ride Well~*~ The Sky's the Limit~
    www.firstgiving.com/christinahyke



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