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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jun. 15, 2006
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    64

    Default

    So, first, nhwr, thank you for "clarifying" that you never leave your horses standing there...alone. I do still disagree with just tying..and letting stand for that long amount of time. I have been taught that there are "other" ways, to teach ground manners, and all my horses are well behaved. I won't put up with a horse that thinks they are the boss and decide what when where how and why.


    Quote Originally Posted by bjrudq
    when i was growing up all the school horses were in tie stalls. they had hay and water and enough room to lay down, but nonetheless were tied all night and much of the day.
    not just the grades and quarter horses, but the ottbs and warmbloods, too.
    it's not how i would choose to keep a horse, but it is definitely do-able.
    And that is the first mistake of a parent..allowin their child to believe that this type of stabling behaver ist "do-able"... I've been to places who kept their horses like this. In Germany it has since been banned...why would they ban something that is "do-able"? Probably..because it is not! I would be the first to openly tell any person I was there with, that this is NOT do-able..and turn to the stable owner, and let them know exactly why I would never step into their stall/stable premises again. I've seen cows kept this way, and always felt a sadness that any animal could be kept this way.

    i, too, do not understand why fancy warmbloods do not need to have good manners. my old trainer's grand prix horse used to snatch the lead rope out of her hands to try to grab a mouthful of grass. what the hell is that?
    It is the person that needs the lessons, not the horse! If I handle a horse, I let it know right off, what it is allowed to do with me, and what is off limits..from there, we build a relationship, with me being the boss! This "old trainer" should have taken lessons on how to handle a horse...sometimes being a "grand prix" rider does not mean that you learned how horse should act when you are on the ground..or, she didn't mind it. I've seen all types. Usually, these types of problems depend on who is at the end of the line, is what I'm trying to say...And, I've seen "other" breeds of horses do the same thing..it is not limited to just the WB scene.



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    511

    Default

    I'm sorry, this thread is making me laugh I don't want to force my believes on anyone, but why would you pussyfoot around an animal that weighs 10 times what you do.

    Stating that your "athlete" doesn't or shouldn't have to stand tied, in my mind is the same as saying, it's okay if my stud mounts everything that walks by, and generally acts like an idiot when I am out in public.

    I have owned many horses from Trakhners to Quarter Horses, to Shires, and I expected the same behavior from all of them. These are animals that need to have boundaries and limitations. And no, I don't believe in using cruelty to get anything accomplished. My horse are just as spoiled as the next person's, they just know who the "alpha" mare in the herd is.

    If you don't expect your horse to stand tied because of their flight instinct, what about when you are riding? Is it okay for your horse to take off with you because they were scared? I understand the jump, turn, look reaction, but bolting is not acceptable.

    I guess what I am trying to say, is my horses are just as spoiled as yours, believe me. They just now who the dominant animal in the relationship between them and I is.



  3. #43
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2004
    Posts
    826

    Default really.

    ties stalls were common, and considered acceptable and humane by many horsemen, back in the day. the horses were healthy and sound, and were ridden at least twice and sometimes 3 or 4 times a day. they were turned out to pasture on mondays. many of these faithful old schoolies worked well into their twenties.

    like i said, it's not what i would want for my horse. i am a believer in maximum turnout. but it worked for my old instructor. (who happened to be german, fwiw.)

    when he moved to his own farm in the mid-60s the schoolies did have boxes but still only had one day in the pasture. i don't think many people have tie stalls anymore...my older neighbor had tie stalls for his belgians, but they were never in them for every long, and i know a trainer who has a tie stall that is used strictly for teaching horses to tie.

    re: the grand prix horse with bad manners:

    "It is the person that needs the lessons, not the horse!"

    they both do.



  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jan. 30, 2003
    Posts
    2,529

    Default

    shireluver, I think every one here ties their horses. The question is for how long and if they are left unattended.



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Yes, my horses are left unattended. Now, I don't leave the property with them tied, but I will go do other things on the property while they are tied. Checking on them, if even from a distance every once in a awhile.

    I also want to clarify, they usually are only tied for normal everyday things like grooming, saddling, bathing, etc., but if they pull back or act stupid while standing there, they may have to stay there a little longer. Kind of like standing in the corner



  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec. 4, 2002
    Location
    Dungeon of the Ivory Tower
    Posts
    20,394

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    Quote Originally Posted by shireluver
    Yes, my horses are left unattended. Now, I don't leave the property with them tied, but I will go do other things on the property while they are tied. Checking on them, if even from a distance every once in a awhile.

    I also want to clarify, they usually are only tied for normal everyday things like grooming, saddling, bathing, etc., but if they pull back or act stupid while standing there, they may have to stay there a little longer. Kind of like standing in the corner
    I wonder if horses can make the connection between the behavior and the punishment?
    www.specialhorses.org
    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues




  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan. 14, 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    15

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    Quote Originally Posted by DressageGeek "Ribbon Ho"
    I wonder if horses can make the connection between the behavior and the punishment?
    In my opinion, this is not a punishment for which the horse needs to make a connection to understand. Think of it like this: If your horse tossed his head histerically well you were riding him, you would do your best to correct the behavior as it happened (just as you would if he misbehaved while tied). But maybe the next day you would ride him with a martingale to prevent him from tossing his head. Does he connect the martingale to the head tossing of yesterday? Probably not, because it is not meant to be a punishment for yesterday, it is meant to be a seperate training experience. If your horse misbehaves while tied, it is an indication that he has not learned to be tied well enough, just as misbehavior under saddle means that he needs more training there. Tying him longer is not a PUNISHMENT for his earlier behavior. It is simply additional and seperate training to help the earlier behavior disappear. So, no connection needs to be made. Get it?

    Some of you seem to think tying is "cruel". This I don't understand. I can see how it has potential to be cruel, but so does a bit, so do spurs, so does a riding crop... so does just about every training method used. However, tying is not cruel when done properly. For instance: After I ride, I cool my horse out, loosen his girth, and offer him a drink. Then, I tie him to the wall in our indoor arena for 1-2 hours while I clean stalls, wash buckets, eat dinner, whatever. I never leave the property. He is tied high so he can't get his leg over the rope, but loose enough so that he can lower his head to a comfortable level. He can move around a bit if he wants to, he is standing in the shaded, comfortable arena in soft footing, and when I come get him after a few hours, he is happily dozing. He has NEVER balked going into the arena in anticipation of being tied. He is happy to stand quietly after a long workout, and he learns to stand quietly no matter what. I don't do it every day, but maybe three times a week. What in the world is cruel about this? I have noticed that the horses that I tie for a few hours each week are much more patient and better mannered horses even on days when they haven't been tied. They don't just "seem" quieter because they have "given up". They learn to be patient. Yes, there is a wrong way to tie a horse. But lets also aknowledge that there is a correct and in my opinion nessecary way to use tying as a training tool.
    ~Jesse~



  8. #48
    Join Date
    Jun. 28, 2006
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    511

    Default

    Yes, they can. Horses are very smart. Have you ever seen a horse that nips, and has got swatted for it, duck the next time it nips, I have.



  9. #49
    Join Date
    Oct. 19, 2005
    Posts
    7,320

    Default

    To me it is really not about tying but all about giving in to pressure. A horse that has not learned to always give to pressure is simply not a safe horse to be around as this giving to pressure may come up in other situations as well, not just tying.

    Once a horse knows to always yield, they can easily stand tied for hours without any problems. People go out camping with their horses and tied them to high lines for the night if no other means of confinement is available. You could not do this with a horse that does not tie well.

    I believe that any horse can be safely and kindly trained to do effectively yield to pressure and it is always best to start young. Unfortunately often not enough consideration is given to this basic training step when horses are handled na in some cases diet might even be a consideration, if a horse gets too much energy from the feed, so they tend to have focus issues which might affect their sensibility in general, IOW the excess energy makes them ping outside of their brain and therefore generally overreact to outside stimuli.



  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    11,474

    Default

    And now standing tied causes arthritis? Give me a break.

    My horse isn't tied at shows but he stands in one spot in his stall and sleeps for hours. What's the difference if he were tied?



  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jul. 5, 2006
    Location
    Northglenn, CO
    Posts
    413

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    How many people here would stand in one place for hours without fidgeting? Why should your horse be expected to stand tied for hours on the side of a trailer so you can wander around, chat, have fun?

    Seems rather... odd... to me.

    My mare stands still when tied, but I don't make it last hours, because I don't have the desire to. Maybe since I don't live on the property she's at (an hour away, actually) and my time with her is limited, I find making her do "silly pet tricks" a waste of my horse time. She's well mannered while I groom, saddle, etc. If I planned on leaving her for "a few hours" I'd just take her back to her stall/pasture. Why make her stand around all tied up when I obviously have more important things to do?



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jun. 27, 2002
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    5,218

    Default

    My horses will stand tied quietly in pretty much any situation, because they have been TAUGHT to stand tied quietly. That doesn't mean that I tie them up and leave them for hours, but if I had to, they would stand there. I have owned my mare for 20 years, and she has stood tied to the trailer at numerous shows without any ill effects, because she was taught to stand tied properly and progressively as a baby. You simply cannot count on having a stall at every outing, and I think that tying is just normal manners that every horse should know/learn. I can't imagine not expecting my horses to tie well.



  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jan. 31, 2006
    Posts
    845

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    I showed a lot in Quarter Horses as a kid. Now those horses had ground manners. I am not a natural horsemanship worshipper but I expect my horses to have great ground manners, to yield to pressure and to tie well. I don't leave my horse tied unattended or tie her to a trailer and walk away, but she knows how to tie and will do it quietly and safely. She is a hot 4 year old mare. I do use a safety halter and if I cross tie her it is attached to twine that would break. Since she learned to tie as a yearling, she has never pulled back.

    Growing up on a horse ranch we taught all the youngsters to tie, also to clip and trailer, be good for the farrier etc. There is no reason why any horse regardless of breed cannot be taught to tie safely. The accidents I have seen have been more stupid stuff like someone trying to pull a sensitive horse's mane while he was cross tied and he flipped.

    I also teach them to give to pressure so if they ever get stuck in a rope or something, they will not pannic. My horse recently stepped on her lead rope while I was hand grazing her. A tree frog jumped on me and I was totally distracted and was not watching the rope. She stood there very quietly with her head pulled to the ground without breaking the rope or halter or yanking her head up because she has been taught not to panic when restrained. She will do the same if you wrap a rope around a leg. Cowboys have safely taught horses to do this forever. I don't see how it can be cruel to teach a horse to react in a safe way.



  14. #54
    Join Date
    Aug. 25, 2005
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    10,964

    Cool

    I guess I'm in the tying to groom ,crosstieing to tack up, but never tying to a trailer club. In 25 years I have never tied to a trailer. If I 'm traveling one horse, they are loose. Not brave enough to do it with two or more, but dealers do it all the time, not that they don't do a lot of other really strange things.



  15. #55
    Join Date
    Sep. 14, 2004
    Location
    Pinon Hills
    Posts
    112

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBPearls
    How many people here would stand in one place for hours without fidgeting? Why should your horse be expected to stand tied for hours on the side of a trailer so you can wander around, chat, have fun?

    Seems rather... odd... to me.
    Because my horses are not people, that's why.
    No offense, but what kind of a sheltered life have you and your horses been living? Don't you ever haul somewhere to go on a nice trail ride? Do you ever go to one-day schooling shows where there aren't stalls available?
    Or do your horses spend 23 hours a day in a 12x12 box stall?
    THAT, IMO, is a horribly sad existence for a horse.
    I have four geldings that will -- dare I say -- contentedly kick back while tied to the trailer for hours, munching all-they-can-eat hay out of their hay bags and drinking out of a big bucket attached to the side of the trailer. There usually are two or more of them when I haul somewhere, so they are not alone. Not to mention other horses tied to trailers around them for company.
    I also situate the trailer so they have shade. I have a long four-horse trailer and they are tied high but loose enough so they have about 8 feet to move around and look around. Sometimes they'll even take a nap while standing there.



  16. #56
    Join Date
    Nov. 1, 2001
    Posts
    9,995

    Default

    How many people here would stand in one place for hours without fidgeting? Why should your horse be expected to stand tied for hours on the side of a trailer so you can wander around, chat, have fun?

    Seems rather... odd... to me.
    How many people would consent to being hauled to a remote location, tacked up and ridden through a dressage test? Why do you expect that because you enjoy something your horse does? Or conversely because you would find something problematic, your horse would? They may or may not.

    Horses aren't people. They don't have the same expectations or desires as people. It seems very odd to me when people expect that they do. Leaving a horse tied for awhile at a horseshow is certainly no worse for them than leaving them standing in a stall all day.

    If they are secure individuals, they can be brave and inquisitive about new situations, if they have been properly prepared.
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jun. 3, 2006
    Location
    May-retta, Jaw-ja
    Posts
    70

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    Quote Originally Posted by MBPearls
    My mare stands still when tied, but I don't make it last hours, because I don't have the desire to. Maybe since I don't live on the property she's at (an hour away, actually) and my time with her is limited, I find making her do "silly pet tricks" a waste of my horse time.
    Maybe I mis-read your post, but since when is standing quietly while tied for any length of time a "silly pet trick?"

    Oftentimes when doing weddings with the carriage, we have a break of an hour, two hours or more and leave the horses standing tied to the trailer and they're quite happy to stand and rest.

    Part of their training also involves being hobbled and tied to a tree for long periods of time so they learn to stand in one spot without fidgeting. They're very well behaved for weddings, even when standing on the side of the road with cars zooming by, they know from training they're not supposed to move their feet.

    I also agree with nwhr, I don't see how people can compare what we as humans feel/enjoy to what a horse would. They're animals, they don't see things like we do and don't even rationalize such things.
    ~Melissa~

    Are You Gonna Cowboy UP, Or Just Lay There And Bleed?

    Why Ride One Horse When I Can Drive Four?



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Aug. 7, 2005
    Location
    Southern California/Muenchen
    Posts
    2,987

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sm
    nhwr's OP sounds more like obedience training, or a tool to help the young horse understand not to drag whatever's at the other end of the rope (be it a tree or a person). More of a ground manners lesson, "this is a rope/leadline and we don't pull and drag against it."

    Other exercises in tieing can be a bit different and wrong.

    And I NEVER leave a horse alone in cross ties, or any ties, I don't care how dead quiet the horse is. Anything can happen, and it doesn't need to be the horse's fault when something goes wrong.

    Agreed 100%.



  19. #59
    Join Date
    Aug. 7, 2005
    Location
    Southern California/Muenchen
    Posts
    2,987

    Unhappy

    Quote Originally Posted by mzpeepers
    Look, sorry to hear about your horses. Like someone else said it sounds like you were boarding at the county fair.
    Nevertheless....the above statement makes me cringe because somehow this "beautiful master beast" sounds like an ill mannered, brainless, large monster (which might explain some other training techniques you support but that is a whole 'nother discussion - which I don't want to get into - no, no, no). By definition alone, I DO expect a dressage horse to have decent manners and a brain. Breed has absolutely nothing to do with it. Lack of proper training does.
    Personally I'm on the other side of the fence when it comes to this. I'm sick and tired of hearing DQs complain about "stroller pushing housewives" and the likes because they are not able to train and/or control their horse outside of the show ring.
    I have no problem training my horse and navigating around show grounds just fine- thank you. What I tried to say which I guess was not understood is- that I would not leave my horse tied to the trailer and walk away at a show...I think it's an unnecessary risk to take with a valued and loved animal-.....



  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jun. 1, 2002
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    11,474

    Default

    but then what do you do at a show or at a trail ride when there are no stalls?

    We never leave them alone at the trailer (although many people do, even overnight) we don't stand next to them. We may be sitting 20 or 30 feet away at a picnic table eating lunch, or changing our clothing in the dressing room.

    What's so hard about that?



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