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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by nero
    How come no one wants to, or can, answer my question?????
    I dont believe I am educated enough to answer with assurance but I would think that what is wonderful is that Brentina and Consuela are not the most talented horses in the world, yet through training they have achieved Olympic and international heights.

    I would say that Painted Black and Lingh are horses who are phenomenally talented to begin with. I believe that without hyperflexion they would still be phenomenally talented. I dont think they are more talented because of it.



  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Touchstone Farm
    I don't think anyone has to "tell" anyone that on this BB. Anyone with well-trained eyes can see that, as two examples only, the gaits do become impure and the hind leg doesn't come through as much. It has the tendency to look more like saddleseat dressage. If one attended the USDF conference with Klaus Balkenhol and the symposium and saw the skeleton painted on the outside of the horse AND saw Steffen Peters demonstrate --on purpose, with KB's direction -- the negative that happens when he rode the lovely stallion, San Remo, in a forced manner, one would have had a very good demo of how gaits and the horse can be impacted negatively.

    I also don't think that just because something is winning makes it right. Look at the Quarter Horse halter classes. Judges rewarded the pumped up bodies and the tiny tea cup feet, and the breeders followed suit. Has that improved the conformation, soundness, movement and future of the breed? I think not. Or the peanut-rolling outline the QH judges were rewarding (although now the rules are supposedly changing). And I have owned and appreciate the QH, so don't jump on me like this is QH bashing.) I just think the "because it is winning so it must be right" is a fairly weak reason to justify a method.

    I don't know why SOME judges are rewarding this; others are very concerned about this, do NOT reward this, and have discussed this with the FEI including Mariette Withages.

    Time will tell with what happens. I always think discussion is a good thing. It's when people don't say anthing...that situations aren't corrected, let alone addressed...
    Touchstone

    I didn't mix up the difference any more than you did in the above post. I simply answered your post as it was posted. It would be very nice if you could answer NERO's question???? Great post Sabine...very thoughtful and accurate!!



  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoline
    I would say that Painted Black and Lingh are horses who are phenomenally talented to begin with. I believe that without hyperflexion they would still be phenomenally talented. I dont think they are more talented because of it.
    the questions is: will they be better performers in the long run...that is the only question...will they be able to PERFORM on command - when it counts- under any conditions- at a top quality...the jury is still out on that.



  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoline
    I dont believe I am educated enough to answer with assurance but I would think that what is wonderful is that Brentina and Consuela are not the most talented horses in the world, yet through training they have achieved Olympic and international heights.

    I would say that Painted Black and Lingh are horses who are phenomenally talented to begin with. I believe that without hyperflexion they would still be phenomenally talented. I dont think they are more talented because of it.

    I think Brentina has awesome talent in there somewhere!



  5. #105
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    This may sound weird, but as I was watching the Holland v Portugal debacle today and I couldn't help but think of the Rollkur (Anky etc) v Classical (Nuno Oliviera etc) trainwrecks on the COTH Dressage forum.
    But probably my most enduring memory of the whole affair was the shot towards the end of the game with Deco and Van Bronckhorst sitting next to each other in the tunnel after both having been sent off. No matter the warfare and total mayhem that was being waged, they were still mates.
    Maybe there's a metaphor in there somewhere for the dressage forum.

    Though I must say Erin does a better job than that Russian referee.



  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabryant
    I think Brentina has awesome talent in there somewhere!
    Brentina obviusly has some extraordinary talent, especially her trainability and tractability (sp? is it even a word??hehe), as does Wansuela Suerte, and their riders are also extremely gifted BUT why is it that people here blame Anky's training methods when HER horse displays problems, but when those same problems are evident in other horses, trained the classical way ten it it merely the restrictions of that particular horse?????? For anyone who feels they ARE educated enough to answer this SIMPLE question, ca you have a go?????

    And Karoline, if you are not educated to answer my simple question, then why are you educated enough to criticise Anky's training methods for how they impact on the gaits/way of going of Salinero (particularly when they clearly DON"T impact the same way on some of her other mounts????).

    Can anyone see the double standards here?



  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by nero
    Brentina obviusly has some extraordinary talent, especially her trainability and tractability (sp? is it even a word??hehe), as does Wansuela Suerte, and their riders are also extremely gifted BUT why is it that people here blame Anky's training methods when HER horse displays problems, but when those same problems are evident in other horses, trained the classical way ten it it merely the restrictions of that particular horse?????? For anyone who feels they ARE educated enough to answer this SIMPLE question, ca you have a go?????

    And Karoline, if you are not educated to answer my simple question, then why are you educated enough to criticise Anky's training methods for how they impact on the gaits/way of going of Salinero (particularly when they clearly DON"T impact the same way on some of her other mounts????).

    Can anyone see the double standards here?
    Raising my hand here....I can!



  8. #108
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    Nero- I think it IS the training method. I do agree that there is an awesome horse inside Brentina...lots of that is visible in the showring- some of it is not...it might not have been easy to get to or not developed. It was not reachable with the undoubtedly excellent method she was trained with.

    Can we not just accept that some things are the way they are?

    I think it's hugely important to show the utmost respect to those riders we are talking about...as I have no less respect for Debbie as I have for Anky...and I would die to have a chance to meet and talk to either one of them and ask them about how they achieved the great success they did.

    I really think every rider has a set of skills and talents and in Anky's case she comes also equipped with a husband who loves her, supports her and designed a training method for her that works for her...how great is that.
    That's really all that there is to say. The AvG camp is not trying to sell their method- they are not even documenting it or writing about it - they just apply it- and if you are lucky enough to be a student you get to explore it and learn it. If you don't like it you can leave...it's a free country.

    Same with Debbie- she has her own system- her own technique- those that ride with her swear by it and follow it to the T.
    Given any horse and any rider- the true match in heaven is the one that really fits...where the horse responds to the rider in a connected and familiar fashion and where the rider feels at home. From that - everything else develops....



  9. #109
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    Um, I'm confused.

    1) I wasn't questioning Debbie's or anyone elses talent, I think they are all fabulous riders. Just because someone notices a weakness in a horse does not mean they are having a dig at the trainer.

    2) I disagree it IS the training method all the time, I think it is sometimes down to the individual horse and if Salinero wasn't trained RK he may still have the limited overtrack he does in the ext trot - that's wy I objkect to people saying RK ruins a horse's gaits because plenty of classically trained horses also display those inadequacies - I'm confused because I thought you said the same thing ealrier, i.e about individual horses having thier own limitations.

    Anyway its late, going now..............this is all just too weird



  10. #110
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    you're right- my post was confusing.

    I meant to say:
    1. training can resolve some stuff that otherwise turns into a limitation...or
    2. sometimes training can not fix a limitation- because that's just how the horse is made
    3. and yes- there are limitations- I think in the horse and in the rider that weigh together, and I guess the least limitations there are - the better the score...

    Good Nite!!



  11. #111
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    Sep. 16, 2005
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    Default I dont feel qualified

    To dissect piaffe and passage as others here do. I do feel qualified to dislike a technique that I find abusive to the horse physical and mental welfare. Like many much more qualified riders and trainers are, even after the FEI Lausanne report.

    I do believe that Brentina and Wansuela are great horses, but I am sure you will agree that all horses are not created equal and so I am not insulting either when I remark that there are horses more athletic then they.

    What I would like to see is a Hubertus Schmidt with a Salinero and see what happens. Wether he loses some performance, or wether regardless of the training, he would still be an outsanding horse.



  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by nero
    How come no one wants to, or can, answer my question?????
    I don't think I have personally said that rollkur training causes the horse to have no overtrack at extended trot. However, I do object to extended trots in general being awarded very high points when it does not overtrack.

    I think overtracking has a lot to do with the length of the horse's trunk compared to his hindlegs. That does not change with rollkur.

    Theresa
    "Tradition ist nicht Asche bewahren, sondern die Weitergabe des Feuers"
    "Tradition är inte att spara askan, utan att föra elden vidare"



  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocHF
    [i]
    OK, Thom and Siegi? In some cultures it is considered rude to speak in a foreign language that most would not understand. Admittedly, my translation is very bad, but you can provide the proper meaning of your words in english? because the way I'm reading it in both languages, it sounds sarcastic.
    You are of course quite correct about it being impolite and ordinarily its not something I would resort to but as Siegi saw fit to post in German and for what I consider to be a wholly bizarre and not understood reason as this is an English speaking forum! I thought it pertinent to let her know that I at least understood what she attempted to say and made comment which you quite rightly judge to be sarcastic response. Won't do it again though as you are absolutely right its rude and I'd say its rude in any culture! Can I please be forgiven though if I stick to English and English spelling on this American forum?



  14. #114
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    Trying...to...kill...this...thread.


    Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....


    Every time I tried to get it on track, it just wouldn't stay there. I'm now hoping it will all just end.

    Thank you to those who responded to my question. I'm actually happy to see that it's not prevalent here at this point and time. I'm hopeful that our judges will be educated enough (either they are now, or will be shortly) to actually penalize people with horses moving incorrectly so we can all be sure that we're on the same page with our training.

    BTW, wouldn't it be nice if all horses were back to the vertical and had the poll highest and the accepted norm was not to have all horses broken at the third vertebra?

    But that's another discussion.

    Thank you for your assistance, and for those of you wanting to beat the rollkur issue into the ground again, please see the other thread I provided for rollkur and conspiracy theories.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet
    BTW, wouldn't it be nice if all horses were back to the vertical and had the poll highest and the accepted norm was not to have all horses broken at the third vertebra?
    I still think that is the accepted norm in a perfect world with perfect riders and perfect horses and perfect trainers. It's not about the head, it's about the rest of the horse anyway. The head is a result. Actually I get so sick of hearing about the head. The horse could be going in twenty different directions but oh, the horse isn't "behind the vertical".



  16. #116
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    on track? OK, can I please be forgiven for translating Velvet into Elmer Fudd?

    Evewy time I twied to get it on twack, it just wouldn't stay dere. I'm now hoping it will all just end. Dank you to dose who wesponded to my qwestion, uh-hah-hah-hah. I'm actualwy happy to see dat it's not pwevalent here at dis point and time. I'm hopeful dat our judges will be educated enough (eider dey are now, or will be shortwy) to actualwy penalize peopwe wif horses moving incorwectwy so we can all be sure dat we're on de same page wif our twaining.



  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabine
    Can we not just accept that some things are the way they are?

    I think it's hugely important to show the utmost respect to those riders we are talking about...as I have no less respect for Debbie as I have for Anky...and I would die to have a chance to meet and talk to either one of them and ask them about how they achieved the great success they did.

    I really think every rider has a set of skills and talents and in Anky's case she comes also equipped with a husband who loves her, supports her and designed a training method for her that works for her...how great is that.
    That's really all that there is to say. The AvG camp is not trying to sell their method- they are not even documenting it or writing about it - they just apply it- and if you are lucky enough to be a student you get to explore it and learn it. If you don't like it you can leave...it's a free country.

    Same with Debbie- she has her own system- her own technique- those that ride with her swear by it and follow it to the T.
    Given any horse and any rider- the true match in heaven is the one that really fits...where the horse responds to the rider in a connected and familiar fashion and where the rider feels at home. From that - everything else develops....
    Great post Sabine! And you pointed out that the AvG group isn't marketing their methods, and it makes me curious why. (Not for any vindictive reason - just simply curious!) At any rate, I agree with you about the importance of showing respect to the riders we discuss here. I too would be thrilled to ever meet them!



  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by stuge
    I still think that is the accepted norm in a perfect world with perfect riders and perfect horses and perfect trainers. It's not about the head, it's about the rest of the horse anyway. The head is a result. Actually I get so sick of hearing about the head. The horse could be going in twenty different directions but oh, the horse isn't "behind the vertical".
    Um, yeah, well DUH. (At least it should be a "duh" that people ride a horse back to fron.) Then again, a hand that it not kind puts a horse curled up and broken at the third when they are driven into an unforgiving hand. So the head is indicative of the hands that hold the bit.
    "Relinquish your whip!!"



  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet
    Um, yeah, well DUH. (At least it should be a "duh" that people ride a horse back to fron.) Then again, a hand that it not kind puts a horse curled up and broken at the third when they are driven into an unforgiving hand. So the head is indicative of the hands that hold the bit.

    Velvet

    This statement is just sooooooo NOT true when deep or RK is trained correctly. This is one of the main difficulties posting on these threads...minds are made up in Never-ever-land because of radical statements like yours. I think your OP question was answered long ago in this thread when someone said that if an American did train rollkur, they would never admit to it becaue of the shallow knowledge of most Americans about the process of training deep and/or RK.



  20. #120
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    oh lordy, can we keep it civil. One problem is rollkur is anything BTV to those horrrendous videos showing the horse jammed into the chest non-stop, being spurred/jabbed along, and "never" let out of that position.

    I hate to link to the videos yet again... don't we remember them?



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