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  1. #41
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    Jan. 4, 2000
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    i would like you fanatics to keep in mind that i write this as a person who does NOT train using rollkur, who works with a trainer who does not use rollkur, who has never worked with a trainer who uses rollkur, and who will NEVER ride their horse in rollkur. as you rev yourself up to abuse and insult me, keep this in mind. I DO NOT USE THIS METHOD.

    there are plenty of people who ride this way in the united states and don't find it abusive, not everyone in the world agrees with the people who post here, in fact, when i talk to quite a few people in america, they find the whole discussion, as one person put it to me, 'Laughable - absurd'.

    to think that everyone sees this issue the same way some posters here see it is patently ridiculous. as passionately as you may believe your ability to control people's thoughts or methods through your gossip, insults and accusations, you simply do not have that control and never have. you people believe anky is a horse killer and this is abuse and you are sure there is no other legitimate or humane way to look at it.

    try to keep in mind that this is your OPINION, and it is NOT the opinion everyone else holds. and as much as you may insult and accuse people, there is no power on heaven or earth at this point that provides you with the ability to force people to agree with you, no matter HOW much you insult and accuse people.

    in fact, i have the idea in mind that the more stridently you accuse people and the more hysterically you malign them, the more you are pushing people AWAY from your side. this is because your tactics are those of political control and are irrational, para-logical and well, basically disgusting.

    i have gone to quite a few barns to try new horses in the past year, both in the USA and Holland, and some of them are ridden slightly deep, some of them much more deep, none of them are ridden similarly to how the top rollkur riders ride - and none of them seem particularly unhappy, coerced, abused or mistreated. despite all the insults and accusations that have been hurled at me on this board, i am very sensitive to the horse's state of mind and their happiness and comfort. and i simply do not see the wrecked bodies, abused minds and ruined training that certain people here are claiming always goes with rollkur.

    i don't think most of those in the USA ride in the extremely exaggerated position of a couple of the top trainers in europe, but then, hardly any one in europe that does ride their horses really deep ride them THAT deep either.



  2. #42
    Join Date
    Aug. 7, 2005
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    2,987

    Wink

    Well put slc. Especially the fact that the more you judge the more you will be talking to yourselves....



  3. #43
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    Dec. 4, 2002
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    Dungeon of the Ivory Tower
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    Hmmmm...if I ride like I have my head up my butt does that count as rollkur?
    www.specialhorses.org
    a 501(c)3 organization helping 501(c)3 equine rescues




  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jun. 9, 2006
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    587

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    I'm with SLC and I tried so hard to get this point across on another board but I am not nearly so good at expressing myself in writing as SLC did.

    The anti rollkur folks are labeling rollkur abusive and I think they are turning people off very quickly by doing this. I am sure that there are people that are using rollkur abusively, anky may be one of these but since I have not personally seen her myself, I am very hesitant to believe anyone. I am sure that there are people that use rollkur that do not use it abusively. I have turned into a rather big skeptic lately and it is because I have learned over the years that people will do whatever and use any means necessary to convince others that they are right. They will lie and they will twist facts and manipulate. The anti rollkur folks are beginning to get grouped into such extreme fanatical organizations like the extreme PETA activists.

    If the anti rollkur folks just came from the position that is just incorrect, they would probably have a more successful campaign. While incorrect riding may not ever be "illegal" at shows, they may turn more people off of it. I think it is sad that they are focusing all this energy on rollkur when there are so many much worse and much more common "abuses".

    The FEI is in a very tough position, we can't blame them. How can they monitor something like this? I have talked to lots of people that believe that rollkur is the same thing as just deep riding. How far behind the vertical does the nose have to be to be rollkur? How long do you have to ride that way for it to be abusive? It just isn't so black and white. I know lots of people that feel that just riding in spurs and a whip is abusive and they laugh when they hear those same people calling rollkur abusive. Anything can be abusive in the wrong hands.

    If rollkur is such a growing trend, how come we hardly ever see any videos of anyone other than Anky? Showing pictures and videos of Anky all the time comes across as vindictive.



  5. #45
    Join Date
    Mar. 13, 2006
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    259

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    Thanks stuge. I totally agree. The anti-rolkur people, to me, appear fanatical. I can make my own judgment about how deep or above the bit I want to ride my horses, according to how that particular horse 'feels.' I don't need anyone to dictate to me what they may consider abuse. The only one that is being terribly abused is Anky for her 'extreme' success.



  6. #46
    Join Date
    May. 1, 2000
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    2,879

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    Thomas, you should turn your considerable expertise to topics of real torture.
    The anky rant is so old its moldy.

    Velvet, you little sh*tstirrer.
    No one can admit to using the technique in todays "climate" in N.Am.
    But I have seen one very prominent USA rider using rough and what I consider abusive methods in the warm up at a CDI show in Canada (Palgrave).



  7. #47
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    May. 3, 2006
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    I'm not sure if SLC's posting was aimed at me or someone else? But I hadn't actually read a posting anywhere suggesting that they thought she might use that technique and I haven't seen any personal insults of her here. Neither had I seen anyone suggest that Anky was a horse killer but heck it makes a much better story if you can grossly exagerate and whip up the mob!

    So I find it wryly amusing that it should initiate a little flock of posters hiding being their assumed anonymity to step on the bandwagon to personally criticise me and others that have a view about it being wrong to stick a horse's head so far between its legs that its up its backside and how dare we suggest that this just might be wrong or abusive.

    And rather than use logical rational argument much easier just to use childish retort and suggest that those who hold opinion might merely be fanatical
    Its also interesting to note that all those who attempt to hold the moral highground do so hiding behind assumed anonymity.

    I find that to be accused of fanaticism from that ilk is hilarious as it is to be grouped in the ranks of peta. For goodness sake I'm a farmer that breeds stock to EAT! I hunt shoot and I train horses and I don't hide behind silly forum names.


    "The downright fanatic is nearer to the heart of things than the cool and slippery disputant"



  8. #48
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    Maryland
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    Good comments slc, sabine, docHF, stuge, Pommederue! Thanks for the breath of fresh air amidst the polluted, judgemental attitudes of the majority on this thread.



  9. #49
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    Jun. 12, 2003
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    where the stars shine bright all through the night
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    But are people doing it in the warmups at the shows in the US? No judgement, just wanting to know. (you never know, I might like rollkur and be looking for supporters. )
    "I reject your reality and substitute my own" Adam Savage--Mythbusters
    <><



  10. #50
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    Jan. 25, 2001
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    1,376

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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2
    i would like you fanatics to keep in mind....
    and as much as you may insult and accuse people, there is no power on heaven or earth at this point that provides you with the ability to force people to agree with you, no matter HOW much you insult and accuse people.

    in fact, i have the idea in mind that the more stridently you accuse people and the more hysterically you malign them, the more you are pushing people AWAY from your side....
    SLC, methinks you could take some of your own advice...
    "Dreams are the touchstone of our characters." Henry David Thoreau
    Touchstone Farm
    www.bytouchstonefarm.com



  11. #51
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    Jan. 25, 2001
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    I'm one who isn't sure if zwangsjacke is abusive or not. It's ugly and unnatural and to me an incorrect way to train dressage. What can the FEI do? Start enforcing judges (perhaps more training and education) so they are judging toward the ideals of dressage? Perhaps supporting the judges so politics and money aren't in the "way." (I know I live in a fantasy world sometimes...)

    What's happening on the international scene to me is discouraging and I'm becoming less and less interested. Instead of feeling excited about "record breaking scores," I feel turned off to the sport. Good thing I love riding and learning on a personal level.
    "Dreams are the touchstone of our characters." Henry David Thoreau
    Touchstone Farm
    www.bytouchstonefarm.com



  12. #52
    Join Date
    Jan. 24, 2000
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    The good (?) news, Thomas, is that no one is particularly anonymous. We pretty much stalk each other until we know who everyone is and where they can be found. So, if you need insider information, you must join the ranks of the PMers, the private messaging system where the real scoop happens.

    I think the name calling is ironic as well. In one fell swoop we are polluted judgmental fanatics and poor dear Anky is abused. Furthermore, if we want to appear "reasonable" so that more people will listen, we should keep our mouths shut.

    No worries, I've said over and over Rollkur is probably not abusive. But, it's probably not dressage either.



  13. #53
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    Sep. 16, 2005
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    995

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    I have seen something that is between BTV and very deep and rollkur and used to "stretch the back" but is held for the entire ride with few stretches or opp for the horse to come up.

    I have seen this practiced by at least four trainers, two who are very qualified. have seen this way of riding used on some horses that were not by any stretch of the imagination "hot" and in fact one that I know better and who tends to be more of a behind the leg guy.

    I think if you saw it you would say it is not rolkur and would question the quality of the riding. I have known some of this trainers for some years and 2 of them I use to think of as really superb riders - and correct riders. I think that there is a following of the trend as someone mentioned and that however good riders these are, they do not have all the knowledge to use this method - which while I disagree with it- I also think would take more then a 2 or 3 day clinic to really understand well.



  14. #54
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    Nov. 1, 2001
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    have seen this way of riding used on some horses that were not by any stretch of the imagination "hot" and in fact one that I know better and who tends to be more of a behind the leg guy.
    Hot horses are very often "behind the leg" because many riders are too timid to really put their legs on a hot horse
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  15. #55
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    May. 1, 2000
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    but heck it makes a much better story if you can grossly exagerate
    My dear Thom, you've amply demonstrated your ability to do this. I just think its a waste to continue to do so. Maybe even a bit childish.
    Retortical, in fact. oh I could go on, but it doesn't get any better...
    thats DOCTOR horsefeathers to YOU



  16. #56
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    Nov. 13, 2005
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    Ok, I have a few questions:

    1) To what degree of overbending/deep riding do you consider "Rolkur?" I've never actually seen this technique used, in real life or otherwise, so am curious.

    2) To those who are 10000% against Rolkur, do you consider riding "long, low and deep" also abusive? If so, why? IMO, if this type of riding is done correctly, it can actually be beneficial. But again, only if its done correctly and not in abundance.

    Ok I'm sure I had some more but can't think of them right now...excuse me for being a bit clueless, but I'm a lower level Event rider and though I've heard alot about this technique, esepcially recently, I don't really know many facts. Thanks for any answers.
    "Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides" - Garth Brooks
    "With your permission, dear, I'll take my fences one at a time" - Maggie Smith, Downton Abbey



  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jun. 9, 2006
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    587

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kathy Johnson
    I think the name calling is ironic as well. In one fell swoop we are polluted judgmental fanatics and poor dear Anky is abused. Furthermore, if we want to appear "reasonable" so that more people will listen, we should keep our mouths shut.
    I am one of the ones that have finally spoken up and expressed my opinion and now my opinion is "a childish retort" and not a "logical rational arguement" to quote Thomas. We are no more anonymous than anyone else on this board. This is when people appear fanatical, when they absolutely can not realize or understand a different opinion (when I say understand I don't mean that you should understand why we feel that way but just understand that people have different opinions.

    The antirollkurs are just as bad, if not worse, than the neutrals or prorollkurs about jumping down people's throats and attacking them personally when there is a difference of opinion.

    There was a post that implied that slc either practiced rollkur or trained with someone that did. Scroll back up a bit.

    I don't see anyone attacking you Thomas or calling you names. I don't see anyone acting any more childish than you and your supporters. I just hear people saying they are getting sick of hearing about rollkur and that they don't think it is abusive and that Anky seems to be the one being attacked. If you want to do good for your cause you need to listen to the people that do not agree with you. It is no good to preach to the choir. If we are saying ya'll are sounding fanatical then we feel that ya'll are sounding fanatical. That's not name calling, that's how we feel and if you want to change something we are the people that you need to be listening to not the people that already agree with you unless you have a need to be told how right you are over and over again. The rest of us, you are just turning off. You need a different approach.



  18. #58
    Join Date
    Apr. 2, 2004
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    826

    Default ?

    "If the anti rollkur folks just came from the position that is just incorrect, they would probably have a more successful campaign."

    an awful lot of antirollkur folks come EXACTLY from that place.

    it doesn't matter.



  19. #59
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    Jun. 9, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjrudq
    "If the anti rollkur folks just came from the position that is just incorrect, they would probably have a more successful campaign."
    an awful lot of antirollkur folks come EXACTLY from that place.
    it doesn't matter.
    It does though matter though. Labeling a method as abusive is going to come across a whole lot different than saying a method is incorrect especially when it isn't so black and white. Like I have said before, there are people that believe you shouldn't even be riding a horse much less ever tapping them with a whip or using spurs on them.

    Jumping in and calling it abusive is going to turn off the very many of us skeptics that don't just take a few pictures and agree because so and so "said so"!



  20. #60
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    Jan. 24, 2000
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    Stooge,

    Did you come up with your name or did your other two partners? By the way, that's not calling names, that's just how I feel

    Actually, I agree with you that rollkur is probably not abusive. I think the FEI is in a tough position, but they did come up with a good definition of rollkur, if you truly want to know where they are drawing the line. I think anti-rollkur people would go down a better road if they looked at how it impacts the purity of the gaits, rather than how it is physically abusive. You may have missed that thread last week. I don't have a cause, I don't have supporters, and I am not out to change anything, least of all someone's mind.



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