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  1. #81
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    Yes. Tension is the problem. And it's not the kind of spooky, jump around tension that some people associate with hotbloods. It's a quick quick quickness that turns nearly ANY attempt on my part to correct my horse into an over correction, which can become an evasion if I'm not careful. It's almost overthinking on the horse's part. And mine, too, I guess.

    But when my horse and I are in sync (it happens every now and then LOL), the tension becomes sensitivity, which makes for an incredible ride. I think and she does. But getting there -- and staying there consistently -- can be ummmm ... fun.

    As exvet said, it's not about one breed being better than the other. It's about what you want out of "your horse experience." I'm not tiny, but I'm not a big person either and I prefer smaller horses. I also like to do all sorts of things with my horses -- trail ride, fool around with cattle, show them (maybe even breed shows again!!!). I also occasionally stand back and just admire their pretty faces. Yes, I like a pretty horse. No use pretending I don't. But that was never my primary consideration when I bred one. I went for good conformation and a good mind first. Always. I never considered sacrificing those two things for big eyes and a jibbah.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."



  2. #82
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    Jun. 10, 2005
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    Cowgirl, your bay Arab is just lovely, he looks so much like the one I lost recently after 17 years of treasuring him. I had him from a yearling until his death. Two colic surgeries couldn't save him. I remember calling to him as he came out of anesthesia, and he whinnyed back to me...there wasn't a dry eye to be had. It was so hard to let him go.

    Arabs are the foundation of most breeds. My lovely TBs wouldn't be here if not for the arab horse, nor would the lovely WBs with the Selle Francais, Anglo Arabs behind them.

    Dressage people tend to want the more forwardly moving long striding horse...today. Arabs don't have the extravagant stride that the WB has, and is therefore at a loss when competing against them.

    As a young trainer, I had a student with an obnoxious father. The student had an Arab that the father had trained and loved. The father once told me, that "I would NEVER find a smarter horse!" Naturally at the time I considered this nonsense. Well for 17 years, I repeated that to myself everyday. I adored my arab as a wonderful partner, whom anyone could ride. He was especially careful with small children, and the BEST trail horse ever. I miss him terribly.

    Yes, I have another arab, who I help rescue, he is two now and very different, but yet so very sweet. I do agree that most people who have never been "owned" by an Arab horse, have no clue about them. It is too bad. They are missing the most wonderful human/horse relationship.

    I adore my warmbloods and my TB's, but I will also always love and appreciate a good Arab horse too. Read Drinkers of the Wind by Carl Raswan if you haven't already. It is the most wonderful story of Arab horses.
    http://www.herselffarm.com
    Proud of my Hunter Breeding Princesses
    "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro



  3. #83
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    Nov. 5, 2001
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    I never said that they were through, or supple, or soft, or in a proper dressage contact. I simply said that these particular horses seemed A - more responsive to leg aid than any WB Ive ever ridden, and B - that their sensitivity made it "easier" to access their backs and hindlegs. "EASIER" not "easy"

    I know they arent through in those pics. I know they have a lot of issues that need to be worked on. but if you had seen photos of them 2 months ago, you would know exactly what I was talking about.

    still not saying that in any of those pics that is the case. but I know what I feel, and I feel it is easier to get that response on these ones. I have had many moments especially on the bay horse, of actual throughness. it isnt often, he cant do it for long yet, but its coming.

    its not like I posted these pics saying "look how wonderful these horses are. they are in a PERFECT shape, they are 100 % through, they are ready to go GP." ha ha ha

    i said "look at how versatile this breed is, and here is my opinion on how they compare with wb's as i know them so far. it isnt perfect, far from it, but these horses need to be thought of as more than just pretty faces in heavy shoes with airhead temperments"

    everybody chill.
    Nothing worth having comes easily.



  4. #84
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    Feb. 4, 2006
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    They look very nice Guccicowgirl - I, too, would be interested in their names and/or pedigree - I see you're in Scottsdale so chances are I've probably seen them show in this area at some point or another. If you don't mind sharing, feel free to PM me

    I'm all about arabs, probably always will be. Although I will probably end up getting a half arab of some sort (I prefer the purebreds though) in the future as I'm so tall and too much so for my current 2 arabians I have also ridden a few warmbloods - I think they are great horses, certainly not bad by any means, just different from arabians. And that's what makes the world go 'round - there are tons of different breeds and some are better for some people and others are better for other people. By the way, my discipline of choice happens to be western pleasure, which so many gleefully bash, but I like to think, again, that I just have a different interest (western pleasure), than you (dressage), and when well done, it truly is a pleasure to watch. I like to think I fall in the category of doing it properly, I would say the majority of people at the shows I attend (class A and regional level primarily) do the same. Of course there are always people who don't, and they are more common than I would like to see.

    Well, anyways, really nice horses and it looks like you're having fun and are enjoying quite a bit of success with them - have you considered showing them yourself in dressage? There's a dressage show combined with the Tucson Arab club's Class A show in January that you might think about if you are interested in showing them



  5. #85
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    Jun. 19, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBLover
    Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.

    High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....
    I agree except for one word. I would change were bred to ARE bred. Before snake necks and 16 hand arabians the arabians purpose was one of transport/survival not sole beauty (Yes Kings and Princes had them but so did other people). Granted they didn't have to collect like a Dressage for transport but my Egyptian would not do well in the "show ring today" he is meant to work..not to say he isn't pretty but he doesn't have that snake like head nor danty feet. Then again is grandsire is desertbred.He is 21 and sound. I would rather have functional than exceedingly beautiful. I think its a trend in quite a few breeds that breed a "too perfect horse" that ends up not functional for riding. Seems pointless to me. Sorry for the tangetbut it irks me that we have "ideal halter horses" that can't be ridden a mile.

    Thanks for the WB clearification.



  6. #86
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    Sep. 18, 2003
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samjen
    I agree except for one word. I would change were bred to ARE bred. Before snake necks and 16 hand arabians the arabians purpose was one of transport/survival not sole beauty (Yes Kings and Princes had them but so did other people). Granted they didn't have to collect like a Dressage for transport but my Egyptian would not do well in the "show ring today" he is meant to work..not to say he isn't pretty but he doesn't have that snake like head nor danty feet. Then again is grandsire is desertbred.He is 21 and sound. I would rather have functional than exceedingly beautiful. I think its a trend in quite a few breeds that breed a "too perfect horse" that ends up not functional for riding. Seems pointless to me. Sorry for the tangetbut it irks me that we have "ideal halter horses" that can't be ridden a mile.
    I'll tell you what irks me. When an Arabian "lover" makes sweeping negative generalizations about the entire breed, implies that modern bloodlines just don't measure up, praises his/her own horse as superior to all and complains about what pukes all Arabian show horses are.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."



  7. #87
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    Jun. 19, 2006
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    Sorry to irk you MP. I have modern American bred Arabian horses as well......Crabbet and Russians too just none that would be competitive in the "halter show" ring they are built to be ridden not be dusted off like a model horse......sorry but it is an issue of todays show world. I am not generalizing the BREED I am generalizing the TRENDS which do change on a whim at times. If you had read my reply you would notice its not the breed that is the negative it is the trend. I'm sorry I think I am entitled to an opinion without my LOVE of a breed being questioned. By the way my love is what drives my opinion after seeing amazing "halter" arabians shoved out in a field to rot because they are not competitive in the ring anymore. Now not saying people don't still produce versitle animals however I think trends should be evaluated when your producing an animal that has 20+ more years of life yet to live.

    Did I say show horses were pukes: No they are beautiful......also I was specifically mentioning the "Halter horses".

    Did I say they didn't measure up? WHoa I guess too perfect is not up to snuff?

    Did I say my guy was the creme of the crop? NO I said he was SOUND at 20 and thats what was important to ME.

    Just MY Opinion......guess I irk people thats fine.



  8. #88
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    Nov. 23, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBLover
    Unfortunately, most Arabs are built in such a way that makes it much harder for them to be "through". They were bred to be "pretty", not for sport, although there are exceptions to every rule. Even endurance-bred Arabs don't need to collect for their job.

    High, short croups, hind legs out behind, swan neck that can curl easily and avoid contact. Oh, but their necks look so beautifully arched that they can deceive....
    Gosh, you're ignorant.
    Jennifer Walker
    Proud owner of Capt Han Solo+, Arabian stallion http://www.capthansolo.com
    Author, freelance writer http://www.authorjennwalker.com



  9. #89
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    so anyone who has a different opinion from you is ignorant. how interesting. how's that workin' for ya?



  10. #90
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    I think you will find far more halter arabians that go onto performance careers than in any other breed - I can come up with probably at least 100 horses off the top of my head who have done just that, perhaps not in dressage, but performance nonetheless (most on at least the regional level) - CA Hermoso, Khadraj NA, Ericca, Hey Hallelujah, Emanor, Allionce, Kharben, Ganges, Shafe Psuede, LBA Lodestar, ATA Bey Starr, AM Ben Dream, Foxfire BHF, NNL Ultimate Bey, Concensus, and Michal T Mahogany......I'll stop now, but you get the point.



  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2
    so anyone who has a different opinion from you is ignorant. how interesting. how's that workin' for ya?
    Thank you for your input Dr. Phil.

    (that was sarcasm, since you rarely seem to get that, SLC)



  12. #92
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    Feb. 6, 2000
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    And this, my friends, is part of the "problem" with Arabs.
    The way the breed fanciers go for each others' throats...

    Though I will say, the bit about the percentage of halter horses which go on to under saddle careers is pretty funny, considering only about 5% of Arab owners show in the AHA division any road...which makes it a pretty meaningless statistic.

    And, with that, I'm gonna go ride one of my little pieces of "living art" (Allah knows I'd *love* to get my hands on the jackass who got *that* fad going...)
    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.



  13. #93
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    "...were bred to be "pretty", not for sport..." is not an opinion, it's a misguided statement of fact.
    Jennifer Walker
    Proud owner of Capt Han Solo+, Arabian stallion http://www.capthansolo.com
    Author, freelance writer http://www.authorjennwalker.com



  14. #94
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    Nov. 11, 2002
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    The Arabian is a pretty breed, it is also a hardy breed. Some folks say that Arabians are bred for the "pretty factor", but that is kind of a given with Arabians... don't you think? Some may look frail enough to lock up in a china cabinet instead of living in a stall, but they are actually quite hardy little creatures (and easy keepers! I have three that thrive on the amount of hay and grain it takes to keep my friend's horse from looking starved).

    As for the majority of breeders striving to produce the swan necked, fancy-faced, toothpick legged sausage horses we see in the halter ring... well, that is just false. Those freaks of nature occur just about as often as humans of the same proportions do... think six foot tall alien super model. Now we don't see those ladies walking down the road every day... do we (if we did my self esteem would officially fly out the window)?

    The average Arabian honestly (I say honestly, because some may have heard of the "Arabian hand" measuring only 3 1/2 inches) stands between 14.1 hh and 15 hh, the mega Arabs can go above and beyond (sometimes to the point they don't resemble their breed any more). Most Arabians are compact, with short strong cannons, pretty but not extreme in the head... and with out the invent of the neoprene neck sweat... their necks are fuller and IMHO much more appealing than the pencil thin fashion (although I sometimes wonder if I used the neck sweats on my thighs while working out...hmmmm).

    I mean think about it... over generalizing any breed can get silly.


    \"For all those men who say, \"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free,\" here\'s an update for you: Nowadays 80% of women are against marriage. Why? Because women realize it\'s not worth buying an entire pig just to get a little sausage.\"-



  15. #95
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    Sorry to disagree with you twnkltoz, that doesn't mean I am ignorant. As I said, there are exceptions to every rule, but there are very few that excel in the top levels of sport. They just aren't built well for the collection required in jumping and dressage. That's a fact, not a misguided one. That's why you don't see many Grand Prix jumping and dressage Arabs out there. Again, a few, but very few.

    They are very hardy, sound, smart, and lovely horses, and have their place in many people's hearts and riding goals.



  16. #96
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    Pretty is a very subjective thing. I like a horse with big floppy ears like Rocher and a head with a lot of character. That to me is beautiful. I have a miniature donkey and I think she is just gorgeous.

    I don't know much about the Arab show world. My Arab contact has not been with those horses. I can say the Arabs that I have known have been very hearty horses, tough and sound more like a pony in that way. I have seen more sound and fit and rearing to go in their 20s than I have seen of other breeds.

    I think slc2 knows what she is talking about when it comes to dressage. I am sure the description she gives is true of many even most arabs. However, there are plenty of warmbloods bred for dressage with weak hind ends that travel out behind too. I have seen a couple very good dressage Arabs. If I was a lot smaller and could get over that "pretty" dished head, I would consider buying one and competing it in dressage. I don't think many are bonifide FEI prospects, but I have seen some that a legitimate dressage horses none the less.



  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghazzu
    And this, my friends, is part of the "problem" with Arabs.
    The way the breed fanciers go for each others' throats...
    What I really enjoy is when the Al Khamsa/Blue List people start ragging on the Polish/Russian/etc crowd that desert-bred is the only TRULY purebred Arabian because Count What-his-face screwed everything up way back in 18-ought 6 because he didn't keep his stud books right. Now THAT's productive.

    considering only about 5% of Arab owners show in the AHA division
    Which is why I don't understand why people get their shorts in a knot about what wins at Arabian shows or then boohoo about the state of the breed. Guess what -- there are still plenty of excellent Arabian out there. Yes, they're still being bred to be riding horses.

    I used to stay up on this stuff (I showed, too). And get sick at who was winning and what they were winning with. (Although there are some very nice champion halter horses -- I've got their offspring standing out in the pasture and they'd make any Arabian traditionalist proud.) I'd rant and rave about the same crap, too, but it's pointless All it does is make the breed look bad. Or worse, depending on your perspective.

    So I stopped showing at the breed shows. I don't buy Arabian World or Arabian Times. I'm still a member of AHA but I don't read their mag either ... except to see who's been suspended this month. And I switched to open shows and am trying my hand at dressage. I still hang out at the occasional Class A show because my friends throw really good parties. I just don't watch the classes because if I've been drinking, I might shout out something inappropriate.

    And, with that, I'm gonna go ride one of my little pieces of "living art" (Allah knows I'd *love* to get my hands on the jackass who got *that* fad going...)
    I'm not sure who said it either. But if I find out, I'll hold him down and you can hit him.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."



  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by WBLover
    Sorry to disagree with you twnkltoz, that doesn't mean I am ignorant. As I said, there are exceptions to every rule, but there are very few that excel in the top levels of sport. They just aren't built well for the collection required in jumping and dressage. That's a fact, not a misguided one. That's why you don't see many Grand Prix jumping and dressage Arabs out there. Again, a few, but very few.

    They are very hardy, sound, smart, and lovely horses, and have their place in many people's hearts and riding goals.
    Absolutely true. They really are all around horses. But the only discipline you'll find them consistently at the top of the game is endurance.

    If I was aiming to go GP in jumping or dressage, I'd certainly go with a different breed. My goal is to have fun with my horses and do a lot of different things. Arabians are perfect for that.
    Last edited by mp; Jun. 23, 2006 at 10:11 AM.
    __________________________
    "... if you think i'm MAD, today, of all days,
    the best day in ten years,
    you are SORELY MISTAKEN, MY LITTLE ANCHOVY."



  19. #99
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    Jun. 19, 2006
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    I am not Al khamsa or Blue list. I also believe in speaking out about what I believe in, I am sure as I progress I will fiind out the world is just one big joke and my voice means nothing but I haven't wised up quite yet.

    I too agree there are some horses bred for GP dressage/jumping and some bred for endurance, some bred to race, some bred to event. It doesn't mean they can't ever cross sports....however ideal conformation for a sport is that ideal and sometimes different sports have different ideals and some breeds fall into those ideals better than others.



  20. #100
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    Jun. 24, 2005
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    I am a newcomer to this board (and a wee bit scared to after reading how heated the discussions can get! )... and I admit to not reading every post in this thread, but I wanted to say something...

    I hate the 'my breed is better than your breed' discussions, too. BUT this one gave me a bit of hope. You see, I have Arabs (4 and one half-Arab). I've shown western pleasure, hunter pleasure and saddleseat. About 5 or so years ago, I had an instructor come out and help me with one of my horses, Jawhari. I had started him myself but hit some road blocks. After she helped us through the roadblocks, she said she wanted to teach us some "dressage stuff". The pushed us into moving his hips and shoulders over, turns on the forehand and haunches, and sidepasses. He learned quickly and was eager to please, and I thought this "dressage stuff" was cool.

    So I started reading and learning - and quickly found out that we were only doing half-a$$ed "dressage stuff". Yeah, he would move sideways, but his head came up, his back dropped, and he was tense and not pretty.

    So when we moved, I found a new instructor. An actual dressage instructor who was well thought of. I told her about our past and that I thought we really needed to go back and learn to have correct gaits and such. And she agreed and we went back to basics. And THEN I discovered that I loved dressage. We're not good at it, but we're learning. Jawhari seems to love to learn, and this gives him something new to think about. And I like it, because I'm goal driven - and there are a myriad of goals with dressage!

    SOOOO... I've rambled long enough. I've enjoyed/appreciated this discussion because it is nice to see there really are people who ride dressage on Arabs, do well, and like it.. it gives me hope!



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