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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabryant
    EH

    I think I can tell the difference between a gait anomaly, improper muscling, stiffness, and a real lameness problem that does require a veterinary visit. I have also seen the trainers who keep A LAME horse going for the lesson fees. Sorry, that is not my way of doing things. More frequently, I see the instructor who blames his/her lack of knowledge on the horse's need to see a chiro/vet when, in fact, it needs proper training.
    Again, I didn't realize that we were talking about YOU.
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



  2. #42
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    Mar. 28, 2004
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    Dressage isn’t just about ‘doing whatever it takes” to get horses to perform movements in spite of their weakness or discomfort. Dressage is about learning to master and effectively apply the basic training principles in a way that develops the horse to its full potential, harmoniously within its nature.

    What Karoline, mbm, lstevenson and I have described is simply the application of the basic riding principles. It is more valuable for riders to learn to use these basics correctly than it is for them to try short cuts because the correct application of the basics works with all sound horses. If the aids are not making an improvement in the way the horses is going then either the rider isn’t applying the aids appropriately or the horse has a weakness or some painful physical issue that needs to be looked into.

    Flexibility can take time to develop, especially when it involves strengthening weak muscles.Shortcuts come with a price.



  3. #43
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    i read all the posts, tonja, tell me where sabryant's principles depart from the ones you espouse.



  4. #44
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    EH

    One last thing before I have to git! What is it u mean about don't take it personally? It isn't personal to you, but it was personal to me because you headed your post with a quote from me. Then proceeded with your hyperbole about how all these horses, at a good trainer's barn, end up with suspensory injuries which was positively an intimidation, on your part, to the ammies and why they should not ride with a good instructor...as if this is what will happen to your horse if you go to a good instructor!



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabryant
    EH

    One last thing before I have to git! What is it u mean about don't take it personally? It isn't personal to you, but it was personal to me because you headed your post with a quote from me. Then proceeded with your hyperbole about how all these horses, at a good trainer's barn, end up with suspensory injuries which was positively an intimidation, on your part, to the ammies and why they should not ride with a good instructor...as if this is what will happen to your horse if you go to a good instructor!
    My goodness, you're paranoid!!

    I simply thought your post went too far in advising that bad instructors who don't know how to teach tell their students to call the vet.

    Obviously, that's wrong. Good instructors will, of course, tell their students to call the vet when appropriate. There are just as many bad instructors out there who will not refer their clients to a vet when necessary.

    I can't possibly imagine why you should get your knickers in a twist over that.....
    "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain" ~Friedrich Schiller



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbm
    i think that most trainers dont have the foundation and experrince to teach let alone train horses and riders in a manner that results in happy progression for both.


    I definately agree with you there. (And then out come the gadgets)



  7. #47
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    Nov. 9, 2005
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    well in my opnion-- if the horse was unsound then sound then issues with what was or wasnt then circles are going to put more strain on legs regardsless of whose right or wrong --

    so the answer is to build up the mussles in leg on the straights first beofre even attempting circles get him going on the straight in a straight line and work both reins and get hocks under neath not one for one but two--

    work both sides till mussles have compensated injury or wahtever so he can then build up his weight and yurs -- and help him to get his hocks underneath

    once done that -- for a while with lots of varied work both sides so horse then becomes balance -- the do the blooming cirlces but go large before going small -- take it stages

    if you had an injury would you run and jump or dance before you leanrt to carry you self -- dont thinks so



  8. #48
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    Jan. 3, 2006
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    Once you've ruled out serious physical issues (by a vet) basic dressage work - including and especially 20m circles - is the best tool to gymnasticise and strengthen your horse. If you just do straight lines at least do them off the wall. The best advice I ever received about bending (from a Rudolph Zeilinger protege) was to rethink my understanding of bend to see that the horse bends by allowing his ribs to swing to the outside of the curve, rather than contracting the inside. It stops us wanting to pull and contain with the inside, and encourages us to let the energy flow to the outside, which we contain and direct.
    (Chiros and massage people will always find something wrong (ish). I don't give them my money any more.)



  9. #49
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    Apr. 25, 2006
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    EH

    I am paranoid as I've been attacked and misquoted on this BB more than a few times. Fact remains, I see a lot of horses having their hocks injected and weekly chiro appts needlessly. I like to think that good training is a chiropractic adjustment in and of itself.

    mbm
    my training and background is very traditional. I just may not ride with the poll the highest point every second. I see reasons to loosen that joint along with all of the other important joints a horse needs to loosen in order to be a total athlete for traditional dressage. Is not the poll/thoatlatch a joint that needs loose tendons/ligaments/muscles in the same way you ask the other joints to bend? Why make all the other joints bend/fold yet have the poll/throat latch joint ever open? What is non-traditional about making ALL of the joints bend/fold/supple? It just seems logical to me. Tradition or no traditions.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eclectic Horseman
    My goodness, you're paranoid!!

    I simply thought your post went too far in advising that bad instructors who don't know how to teach tell their students to call the vet.

    Obviously, that's wrong. Good instructors will, of course, tell their students to call the vet when appropriate. There are just as many bad instructors out there who will not refer their clients to a vet when necessary.

    I can't possibly imagine why you should get your knickers in a twist over that.....
    Last edited by sabryant; Jun. 22, 2006 at 09:28 PM.



  10. #50
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    Istevenson

    It is amazing to me that you can slam Sabine like this and in the next breath tell the OP to fix her horse with First and Second level exercises.



    Quote Originally Posted by lstevenson
    I hate it when people say things like this to people who have the guts and integrity to stick to classical principles.

    Sabine, the things in the books DO work, if you do them correctly.


    To the OP, your horse is simply lazy or weak with his right hind leg. Do excercises which engage the right hind leg. Leg yield left, shoulder in right, spiriling in on left circles, and spiriling out on right circles. You might have to tap with your whip some to make him make an effort, but when he is using the hind leg better, he will bend better.



  11. #51
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    Nice post Equa!


    Quote Originally Posted by Equa
    Once you've ruled out serious physical issues (by a vet) basic dressage work - including and especially 20m circles - is the best tool to gymnasticise and strengthen your horse. If you just do straight lines at least do them off the wall. The best advice I ever received about bending (from a Rudolph Zeilinger protege) was to rethink my understanding of bend to see that the horse bends by allowing his ribs to swing to the outside of the curve, rather than contracting the inside. It stops us wanting to pull and contain with the inside, and encourages us to let the energy flow to the outside, which we contain and direct.
    (Chiros and massage people will always find something wrong (ish). I don't give them my money any more.)



  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabryant
    Istevenson

    It is amazing to me that you can slam Sabine like this and in the next breath tell the OP to fix her horse with First and Second level exercises.


    Uhh... Why is that so amazing to you?



  13. #53
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    Jan. 31, 2003
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    Sigh.

    This horse does not take the rein in question in EITHER direction, not just going to the right. Think about this. You don't just correct this when it's the outside rein, or when it's the inside rein. You always have to be aware as to which rein the horse is not stepping in to.
    It's just that when its the outside rein, the rider thinks he is on it. So convenient, so misleading, so wrong. The problem is always the same, regardless of what direction you are going in, and you have to fix it even while riding in the other direction. You have to fix it all the time.

    In the beginning, people have to learn ride the horse to step into the rein contact equally (and horses have to learn to step into the rein evenly). The idea of riding them very straight rather than jumping right into bending (and the equally baffling spiral seat theory, where the rider supposedly contorts her body into the shape of a pretzel, that is actually based on when the horse is IN COLLECTION and is up in front of you, and the very miniscule movements from the rider that bend it, NOT people in this situation) gets them thinking about both sides of the horse and what is going on underneath them.

    Regarding what happens if your outside rein does not go forward when you bend the horse? His frame gets shorter and he curves into the outside rein, around your inside leg. You do not have to advance the outside rein for the horse to do this. The biggest evidence of this is to ride a spiral of decreasing size and see what happens if you advance your outside hand. The horses frame gets longer and longer and he CANNOT perform the smaller circle because he is now just too long and strung out to do it. He is following his nose around, rather than turning his shoulders. However, if you spiral in off your outside aids, the horses frame gets shorter and he is capable of staying on the smaller circle. In this way the horse becomes more gymnastic rather than more on the forehand.

    It is hard enough to teach people to not drag their horses around on their inside rein; I cannot imagine telling them as beginners to put their outside rein forward, people as a rule can barely stand to hold onto it and keep it steady. The very first fix I usually have to work on a new student is to teach them to use their outside rein/aids effectively. Almost all of them are dragging their horse around on the inside rein while their outside hand floats forward and the horse lays on their outside leg. They protest, they have been taught the spiral seat! But the proof is in the horse, who is meandering around the arena. Horses that have not been taught to step equally into both reins first and then bent by curling around the inside leg while supported by the outside rein/aids are hell to keep straight and I always just go back and retrain the basics that every three year old just undersaddle should know. You can always tell the ones who have been ridden with that outside rein coming forward.. the shoulder pops and the horse is never engaged. They are impossible to ride accurately this way. When the horse is correctly bent and stepping into the outside rein you can put them anywhere, it's power steering at its finest and the possibilities become endless. Perhaps you have to experience it to know what it feels like, to emulate it. There are so many things that cannot be conceived of until you experience them!



  14. #54
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    Jan. 3, 2006
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    Totally agree. even contact both reins. The contact is not about the mouth, it is about what is happening in the whole body. The bend is contained by the contact not constrained by the reins.



  15. #55
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    Aug. 14, 2004
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    for me, when i ride circles the o/s rein (i am thinking here becuase i dont really pay attention) seems like it would advance a 1/2 inch or so.... just enough to give the horse room to bend.

    while i havent trained any beggining riders in a long time what i have seen at various clinics is that once folks get past a certian place, most will take a death grip hold on the o/s rein and the horse *cant* bend ....

    there are times that i use the o/s rein in a firm manner to keep the shoulder in line..... but once the horse is back aligned i go back to the regular contact.

    we wont know what the correct answer is for the OP unless we see pics of the horse in question evading. but you cant really go wrong by acticvating the hind end and doing circles (once you know that it doenst have any injuries to keep it off the cirlce) i never was before, but i am a believer of circles now

    Sabyrant - I wasnt commenting on your methods of riding... (being traditional or not) .. i was trying to be VERY general in my comments to avoid friction with anyone.



  16. #56
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    Sep. 16, 2005
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    Default EQ just a question

    Where are your students shoulders on the circle? If they are lined up with the horse's shoulder then while you have contact , the outside shoulder/elbow/arm is positioned ahead of the inside shoulder (of the rider). I dont think anyone is suggesting extending the outside hand and having a big loopy rein, that would give you zero way of controlling the bend and no place to receive the horse.

    I spoke with my trainer today, and she let me know that speaking of a giving hand (in english) may give the impression of no contact. I have also used breathing, living, elastic, perhaps that communicates better the idea that the contact is always present (?)

    I believe the term spiral seat was coined by Sally Swift who did not invent the concept itself, obviously. I am probably not doing it justice. I will say that if you are contorting like a pretzel, you are not doing it right. The spiral seat is the beginning of being able to isolate your aids it works to avoid the kind of situation you describe where an ammie overuses/pulls/etc. the inside rein or pulls back on the outside rein.

    Another way of saying this I have heard was Jane Weatherwax (I Judge) saying "think you are on a swivelling bar stool" and the "look at your horse's tail" to teach a rider who was not accomodating the circle with her own body. But that does not address the risk of the rider to get their hips all over the place and collapse on the inside.



  17. #57
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    Oct. 19, 2005
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    Untrained humans are not able to step on the ice and do a triple Axel tomorrow, heck they could not even perform a single most likely.....undeveloped horses are the exact same way.

    The whole idea about Dressage is to develop and condition the horse's musculature correctly so he/she will eventually be able to perform a canter pirouette. At first level it is expected that the horse has received the conditioning needed to perform the required movements at that level, but not more. I think riders often forget how much time it can take for a horse's muscles to develop properly AND that process is different for each horse!

    In addition, a horse can ONLY ever be as straight as its rider, no ifs and buts about it.



  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoline
    Where are your students shoulders on the circle? If they are lined up with the horse's shoulder then while you have contact , the outside shoulder/elbow/arm is positioned ahead of the inside shoulder (of the rider). I dont think anyone is suggesting extending the outside hand and having a big loopy rein, that would give you zero way of controlling the bend and no place to receive the horse.

    I spoke with my trainer today, and she let me know that speaking of a giving hand (in english) may give the impression of no contact. I have also used breathing, living, elastic, perhaps that communicates better the idea that the contact is always present (?)
    I do not want to see their outside shoulder in front of their inside shoulder.

    I do agree that we are talking about establishing an elastic connection into both reins. I just don't agree that the outside hand (or anything else) comes forward for the horse to bend. The horse is not a bicycle, we turn his shoulders, not his nose. Just the logistics of this concept alone makes me want to scream - inside leg at the girth, inside hand passive, outside *leg* back and down (hip must stay back for this to happen!), outside *hand* advancing? Aieeee!

    I worry that people who are taught this will never feel the horse curl around their inside leg and reach up/out onto the outside rein.

    But I totally agree that the outside rein is not a death grip or like a siderein - but when retraining a horse who has been allowed to slither past the outside rein/aids it sure can feel like that!



  19. #59
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    Sep. 16, 2005
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    I am hoping someone clearer then me can explain this to you because it is the most basic of instruction, so I must be butchering it for you to not get it.

    If my shoulders are the horse's shoulders, then on a circle my inside shoulder is slightly back and my outside shoulder slightly ahead and it has to be otherwise I would not be aligned with the horse and my outside hand would be blocking the bend.

    Completely agree on all the other aids. Which is why I am thinking you do ask for a spiral seat but you likely call it something very different.



  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karoline
    I am hoping someone clearer then me can explain this to you because it is the most basic of instruction, so I must be butchering it for you to not get it.

    If my shoulders are the horse's shoulders, then on a circle my inside shoulder is slightly back and my outside shoulder slightly ahead and it has to be otherwise I would not be aligned with the horse and my outside hand would be blocking the bend.

    Completely agree on all the other aids. Which is why I am thinking you do ask for a spiral seat but you likely call it something very different.
    Nope, I know exactly what you are talking about, I just disagree. I don't think the horse is properly turned like a bicycle, there are no handle bars. I keep my outside shoulder back in line with my inside shoulder, I don't advance my outside shoulder past/over my hip. That would make me unstable and piss my horse off when I "dropped" him <LOL>

    I know that the spiral seat is taught, I personally think it is a BIG misunderstanding that the outside comes forward for the horse to bend and that the horse would be blocked if you don't. I don't, and the horses bend just fine. I do, however, keep the outside contact alive, I want energy coming thru on both sides. I think a big difference here might be that I don't want my horses to bend thru their *neck*, but thru their whole body, so that I could barely see their eyelashes on the inside.

    Here is a pic - my shoulders are in line and my hands are at the same horizontal plane but the horse is clearly bent to the inside.

    But it's ok, we can disagree!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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