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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Default That long & deep article from Holland

    In December, the magazine In De Strengen did a roundtable discussion with IDRC president Margit Otto-Crépin, Sjef Janssen, former Chef and trainer Johann Hinnemann, international jury member Christoph Hessand KWPN communications person Maria Henneman. They call it “round and deep” instead of “rollkur."

    Here’s some translation (more to come)

    Margit Otto-Crépin (60) knows her stuff and knows classic training. There is nothing new that she hasn’t seen before.

    She tells the tale of Paul Pflinzer, who kept the horses belonging to a one-handed German Kaiser light and obedient. “’Pflinzering’ is what we called it years ago, when we rode round and deep,” said Margit. “I always rode my horses round and deep,” added the French rider, who is best known for her partnership with the strong Holsteiner Corlando (Cor de la Bryère). This partnership won the European championships at Goodwood in 1987 and the World Cup at Gothenburg in 1989. When she would ride her powerful Holsteiner in indoor arenas, such as the World Cup final, all the show jumpers would watch her controlling this giant with the mere touch of a finger.

    “I always rode round and deep,” said Margit. “And all my trainers made me do this as well. At the Cadre Noir in 1970: round and deep. At Robert Schmidtke’s in 1975: round and deep. At Fritz Templemann’s: round and deep. At Dr. Schulten Baumer’s: round and deep. The neck had to lower from the withers to bring the back up and round. Anky and Sjef have a slightly different method, but theirs is round and deep as well. And for me, that is also classic."

    Sjef added, re those who tried round and deep by yanking and kicking, “That is bad riding and we are against that. When I see a rider kicking and yanking, it makes me angry. That has absolutely nothing to do with riding round and deep. And the so-called “classic riders” do just as much kicking and yanking. Trying to copy leading people in a sport, and doing it wrong, is something you see in all sports, and that is something we need to try and educate people about. At our barn, long and deep is not yank, kick, yank, kick.”
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec. 2, 2002
    Location
    Waterford, VA USA
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    Default

    Hi Coreene,

    This article is way too realistic and logical for some of the folks on this board. They do not want to be confused with facts but would rather continue their heated, circular discussions based on emotions and perceived dressage ideals.

    Looking forward to the continuation of this article,
    Siegi
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.



  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr. 23, 1999
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    Rosehill, TX
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    Default

    I don't believe that holding a horse in 'bite-me/bite-you' position is any more classical than tieing his nose to his tail in the stall overnight is
    Nothing says "I love you" like a tractor. (Clydejumper)

    The reports states, “Elizabeth reported that she accidently put down this pony, ........, at the show.”



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
    Posts
    891

    Default

    Very interesting. I actually have heard about that argument before. Thanks for translating.



  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar. 1, 2001
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    1,031

    Default

    don't believe that holding a horse in 'bite-me/bite-you' position is any more classical than tieing his nose to his tail in the stall overnight is
    Or tieing him to a couple of pillars and making him dance on the spot?

    Edited to add:

    That was actually another cheap one liner which siegi would have got, i quoted becuase there was a post between. Lighten up sebastian you're late to the party.
    Last edited by fiona; Jun. 15, 2006 at 04:59 PM.



  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2000
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    Los Angeles, CA
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by fiona
    Or tieing him to a couple of pillars and making him dance on the spot?
    Oh puleeeze...

    As a firm believer of "actions speak louder than words" -- I can't take Sjef's comments seriously after seeing the video of Anky warming up...

    Seb
    Aca-Believe it!!



  7. #7
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    Mar. 1, 2001
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    Default

    see above.



  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2000
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by fiona
    see above.
    Still doesn't make sense... I will presume it's an inside joke... Again...whatever...

    Not late to anything, been watching and reading this debate for sometime...
    Seb
    Aca-Believe it!!



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct. 18, 2000
    Posts
    22,437

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastian
    Oh puleeeze...

    As a firm believer of "actions speak louder than words" -- I can't take Sjef's comments seriously after seeing the video of Anky warming up...

    Seb

    Me neither - wasn't she doing exactly what he says not to do? And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.

    Crank and spank. Call it what you will - dress it up and make it smell like roses. Doesn't matter if you're so "classical" you poop marble, or think dressage should be spectular, or you dress your horse in a hat and sunglasses on it - whatever - I don't much care.

    This is the disconnect - this is what I read - don't crank and spank. Then, we get lots of video that shows that's exactly what they're doing.

    sabryant says women have to use force, then Margit says she accomplished "round and deep" with a touch of the finger, and then we see that horizontal curb and spur spur spur.

    Doesn't add up. Sorry - if the situation was reversed I'd feel the same way.

    Continue on with the impending trainwreck.



  10. #10
    professor Guest

    Default And the story continues

    IMHO it is more abusive to start your horse 3 classes higher then they can handle.


    1 members found this post helpful.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr. 30, 2004
    Location
    Prescott Valley, AZ
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    Default

    Well of course they're going to try to deflect attention from the fact that they're doing exactly what they are saying NOT to do. My gosh, we have VIDEOS, not even just pictures anymore, of Anky kicking and pulling on these horses with unbelievable distorted gaits, and yet that's exactly what they're saying they're not doing. Does he really think people are going to support his views for much longer?



  12. #12
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    Oct. 18, 2000
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by professor
    IMHO it is more abusive to start your horse 3 classes higher then they can handle.
    You know - I can't help if your some poster's evil twin Skippy or something. Was anyone here discussing the virtues or evils of competing at a higher level that your horse is ready for?

    No.

    So why did you bring it up, or are we going to get into degrees of "abuse" - this abuse is worse than "my abuse" so it's ok. That one was already done to death although it's still simmering if you care to go over there and poke the coals.



  13. #13
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    Sep. 13, 2000
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    Greenville, MI,
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    Exclamation JSwan and others...

    This horse is SOOOOO dead its got maggots crawling on it.
    We can talk till we are blue in the face, but come on, face it, we are wrong, and they are right! Even though all the articles and statements by sj are contradictory to what the Videos show! This will all come out in the wash some day!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
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    241

    Default

    So if someone with a foreign accent says something, it must be true? Rollkur/straightjacket/deep/pflinzering is bad horsemanship, and the results prove it. Period. I don't care who practices it. Some people seem to think that if they get enough "authorities" to endorse bad horsemanship, those of us with common sense will abandon our ways and start to endore it as well. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.



  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec. 18, 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin
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    794

    Cool Just an aside...

    Everyone is going to bear there own opinion on this, odviously.
    We watched a well known Olympic rider training piaffe steps on
    Dressage Today, and kept wondering when where they ever going
    to reward the horse.... poor horse couldn't figure out what was going
    on, felt so sorry for him and kept hoping they would give him a break,
    though they just kept pushing pushing pushing. This person doesn't
    ride/train 'deep'.....and I would guess that many of you think she is
    great...though if she were judged by that one tape....
    ~*Ride Far*~Ride Well~*~ The Sky's the Limit~
    www.firstgiving.com/christinahyke



  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep. 16, 2005
    Posts
    995

    Default couple of small things

    Margrit is german by birth, French by marriage

    1972: The Cadre Noir is demilitarized and becomes in part The Ecole Nationale d' Equitation with the mandate to keep the french riding tradition alive and train the riders and instructors of the future. The ENE is not in Saumur but inTerrefort, near Saumur.

    The Cadre Noir itself remains a small group of 45 riders who are accepted upon an exam vs. being appointed and are led by an Ecuyer en Chef.

    1984: The Cadre Noir de Saumur first woman to to wear the black uniform is Florence Labram

    The doctrine of the school is General L'Hotte: "A calm, forward, straight horse".

    Christian Carde, Cadre Noir ecuyer en chef from 1991-1999 has spoken publicly against rolkur and has founded Dressage Allege-Ideal to defend the principles of dressage and requests a strict application of FEI rules in dressage competitions, particularly article 401.

    I think he, along with people like Phillipe Karl, Michel Henriquet, Jean D'Orgeix, basically the pillars of the french riding school who support Carde would scream heresy at anyone who suggests the Cadre Noir supports rolkur, or riding BTV.

    I do not see Margrit saying rolkur is ok, I see her say round and deep is ok, I wish she was more specific.



  17. #17
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    Aug. 7, 2005
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    Southern California/Muenchen
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastian
    Still doesn't make sense... I will presume it's an inside joke... Again...whatever...

    Not late to anything, been watching and reading this debate for sometime...
    Seb

    that's the very problem- you are about to be misinformed and there is no way that can be avoided...:LOL!

    Good article and thank you for posting it Coreene. I am especially fond of Margit- as she has ridden my horse's dad to great honors (Loutano) and I have great respect for her....see here...http://www.horse-flirt.de/video/mov742.m1v



  18. #18
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    Sep. 16, 2005
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    Default

    She is an excellent rider, no doubt about it.



  19. #19
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by J Swan
    Me neither - wasn't she doing exactly what he says not to do? And what Margit describes isn't what Anky et al are doing.

    Crank and spank. Call it what you will - dress it up and make it smell like roses. Doesn't matter if you're so "classical" you poop marble, or think dressage should be spectular, or you dress your horse in a hat and sunglasses on it - whatever - I don't much care.

    This is the disconnect - this is what I read - don't crank and spank. Then, we get lots of video that shows that's exactly what they're doing.

    sabryant says women have to use force, then Margit says she accomplished "round and deep" with a touch of the finger, and then we see that horizontal curb and spur spur spur.

    Doesn't add up. Sorry - if the situation was reversed I'd feel the same way.

    Continue on with the impending trainwreck.
    Jswan - if you can ride anything like the little video clip I just posted from Margit- you go ahead and post that- all I can make out from your profile is a draft horse cross dressed up to do some heavy duty cross country riding - more like the field hunting style and a rider that rides in a hunt seat with short stirups and rolled up legs...where do you get your incredible dressage experience from???



  20. #20
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    Jun. 11, 2004
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    Default

    If these horses were being controlled by "the mere touch of a finger" they wouldn't have their mouth gaping open, their lips pulled taut and the reins being hauled backwards.

    It's more like a "touch of a backhoe..."



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