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  1. #41
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    On The Flipside: my family, save for parents and brother and me, all live in Holland. One morning my cousin went out to feed, only to discover that her daughter's 24 or 25 year old gelding had laminitis in all four feet. Instead of calling the vet to put him down, they called the local butcher.

    At first I was horrified. Then, when I thought about it, it was like one of those Six Of One, Half A Dozen Of The Other things. Horse was going to be dead either way, so although I would not have chosen this method of The End, I am less freaked out about it than I originally was.
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbird
    Well said greysandbays.
    Uhhh, except that it was inaccurate!
    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill



  3. #43
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    There is a huge difference between sending a lame horse to a local butcher who would then quickly kill an individual horse with skill and care rather than an assembly line of unskilled and uneducated workers who have a quick turnover at their job trying to knock out the horse, hit or miss the assembly line keeps moving for maximum efficiency. Dead, conscious or whatever, no matter how many bolts the horse had recieved it still keeps going, sliced the same, in any state of consciousness.

    If you take a horse to a green pasture who is in pain, lame, broken leg, whatever and put a well placed bullet in his head it doesn't matter to him what you do with his carcass. However the assembly line makes it possible to slaughter horses by the thousands and the system is as heartless as the people who run the business.

    All slaughtered animals should be treated better than the current system provides but the horse was not created for food but as a beast of burden and to work for and with humans. And OF COURSE this is MY OPINION, not questioning that so you can't call it wrong or right since it's an opinion.



    Quote Originally Posted by Coreene
    On The Flipside: my family, save for parents and brother and me, all live in Holland. One morning my cousin went out to feed, only to discover that her daughter's 24 or 25 year old gelding had laminitis in all four feet. Instead of calling the vet to put him down, they called the local butcher.

    At first I was horrified. Then, when I thought about it, it was like one of those Six Of One, Half A Dozen Of The Other things. Horse was going to be dead either way, so although I would not have chosen this method of The End, I am less freaked out about it than I originally was.



  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by JumpingPaints
    greysandbays - I never once referred to horses as "pets".

    I said they "served humans," which differs them from livestock raised solely for slaughter. This servitude also applies to the roles of working ranch horses and probably the roles of the horses owned by the rest of your pro-horse slaughter "buddies".

    Also, could you please provide numbers of pro vs. anti-horse slaughter people in the US to back up your claim that there are only a couple dozen who are anti-slaughter?
    Are you unfamiliar with the concept of working cattle, aka oxen, which are generally eaten after their working years are over? You think they don't "serve humans" before being sent to slaughter?

    How about milking cows? You think this isn't "serving humans"? Not many dairy cows die of old age. Milk cows are handled, trained, and interacted with on a level much more time intensive than many horses. Yet they are slaughtered as well.

    Or the cattle used in rodeos and cutting/working cow horse competitions. You think they aren't "serving humans"? They all go to slaughter, too, unless they are a really special rodeo bull who gets retired.

    Are not the 4-H livestock "serving humans" as they play a part in the education of their young owners before they go off to slaughter?

    I don't see how you can use "serving humans" as a legitimate guaranteed exemption from slaughter. One logical grounds, you would have been better off to have gone with the "pet" thing. Still weak, but not nearly so weak as what you ran with.

    I never "claimed" there were only a couple dozen people in the US who were "anti-slaughter", and I'm not sure how you managed to misconstrue my words, unless you are either not quite bright or so hell bent on a tear that you can't read straight. My exact words were "You and your couple dozen buddies", which was obviously in reference to your own personal circle of aquaintences, beyond which you apparently have not considered there might be examples which do not mirror your beliefs and might have a viewpoint that should be considered before you take up the whip to lay down the law according to your dictates.



  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snowbird
    Horses are livestock and they are bred for a purpose that stroked the ego and makes their human owner happy. I totally agree that while we may choose not to slaughter and wemay may choose not to eat horse does not mean we have the right to impose our will on others.
    The problem with this is that until slaughter ends, selling a horse isn't safe. There is no legal way I can keep any horse i own out of the slaughter system. The quick reply is "don't sell him", but what of the 55,000 horses stolen every year? Do you really think kill buyers & the slaughter plant checks ALL stolen horse alerts for all states before sending that horse down the chute to the kill room?

    The second problem is that one of economics. As long as people can squeeze the last $200 out of their old mare's body, they have no incentive to hand her over to a rescue where she will get a new home. Right now rescues have to BUY theses horses to get them out of the feedlots. These aren't broken down worthless nags. These are wonderful, sound horses who just got unlucky enough to be bid on by the meatman. Remove this crutch and horses will either be donated to good homes, sold before they turn until unsellable wrecks, or put down.

    I can also argue from a moral standpoint you can't say it "does not mean we have the right to impose our will on others". Does that mean if your friend likes to kill kittens with a baseball bat for entertainement, it's perfectly acceptable to do? Do we have the right to stop a person who is kicking his dog to death in front of us? Or are all animals just property and property rights more important? Does this carry over to children... is it ok if your friend wants to beat his children so badly they go to the hospital?

    I think what some pro-slaughter people fail to see is the injustices that happen all the way from the last good home that horse had, through the various auctions, brokers, feedlots, crowded truck trips, until he finally arrives at the chute to the kill room at the slaughter plant. Is it really OK meat-bound horses are denied basic medical care since they're heading to their deaths eventually in just a few days (or weeks or ??)? How many days should a horse be allowed to have a broken leg or severe laminitis before he's cattle-prodded to the kill room?



  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays
    I never "claimed" there were only a couple dozen people in the US who were "anti-slaughter", and I'm not sure how you managed to misconstrue my words, unless you are either not quite bright or so hell bent on a tear that you can't read straight. My exact words were "You and your couple dozen buddies", which was obviously in reference to your own personal circle of aquaintences, beyond which you apparently have not considered there might be examples which do not mirror your beliefs and might have a viewpoint that should be considered before you take up the whip to lay down the law according to your dictates.
    It appears from the length, tone and content of your responses, that you are the one who is "so hell bent on a tear." Also, with regards to your comment "you are either not quite bright...", I would again reference that your previous post argued four paragraphs directed at me on a point (horses are "pets), that I didn't make.... and I didn't feel it necessary to insult your intelligence or anger control.

    I think we can agree to disagree on this topic. I don't think it's appropriate to insult people personally for their values, one way or the other.
    "There's something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man" ~ Sir Winston Churchill



  7. #47
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    May. 24, 2006
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    hmm...well the slaughter issue is sure a big one and of course I can see why. I cannot understand though what banning slaughter would do....there are still going to be all those unwanted horses around and the same people heartless enough to not care about their fate. If slaughter were banned, I bet there would be tonnes of horses left out in the field,totally neglected. In comparison, slaughter is probably more humane. The whole thing is really sad, but the reality is there are ALOT of people out their that don't value equine life like we do...and that is simply a fact of life.
    I also find it a little strange sometimes that people get SO bent out of shape over horse slaughter, and yet have NO qualms about eating pigs, cattle ect. Guess what happens to them in order to turn them into your burgs and steaks ect. Of course I wouldn't be able to fathom eating horse, and the thought of my horse going to slaughter..or any horse for that matter, makes me sick. But an animals capacity to suffer physically and emotionally has nothing at all to do with our emotional attachments to it or societies hypocrital catagorization of it into either pet or food.



  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan P
    There is a huge difference between sending a lame horse to a local butcher who would then quickly kill an individual horse with skill and care rather than an assembly line of unskilled and uneducated workers who have a quick turnover at their job trying to knock out the horse, hit or miss the assembly line keeps moving for maximum efficiency. Dead, conscious or whatever, no matter how many bolts the horse had recieved it still keeps going, sliced the same, in any state of consciousness.

    If you take a horse to a green pasture who is in pain, lame, broken leg, whatever and put a well placed bullet in his head it doesn't matter to him what you do with his carcass. However the assembly line makes it possible to slaughter horses by the thousands and the system is as heartless as the people who run the business.

    All slaughtered animals should be treated better than the current system provides but the horse was not created for food but as a beast of burden and to work for and with humans. And OF COURSE this is MY OPINION, not questioning that so you can't call it wrong or right since it's an opinion.
    I know there is a huge difference. That would be why my post started with "On the Flipside."
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  9. #49
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    I actually thought the article was well written and well-annotated. I'll venture to say that I think what is bothering y'all is the fact that it non emotional.

    This is the way technical material is written. You'll see similar articles on soybean production, or milk production, herbicide use, well water, all kinds of things.

    I see stuff like this all the time in ag journals - and many of those articles address humane treatment of livestock - but there is just no Disneyfication of them - just dispassionate text.

    A reader might find one or two of the conclusions a bit far fetched based on the data provided - but you'd have to read the materials referenced if you wanted to know more.

    I guess it's rather an awkward time to remind everyone that Ferdinand would not have been saved by a slaughter ban in the US. It's nice that he's a poster child for "the cause" and all that - but that horse went to stud in Japan - and JAPAN slaughtered him.

    I doubt the US to will enter into trade embargoes and international disputes over American horses that leave our borders and end up slaughtered.



  10. #50
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    The best way to lessen the slaughter of US horses bound for European dinner tables is to do a huge media campain in Europe so that they can discover all the shit they're ignorantly eating when Misty of Chincoteague appears on their dinner plate. Because many are under the assumption that it's a good, healthy alternative to pork or beef.
    EDDIE WOULD GO



  11. #51
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    Jun. 14, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by caffeinated
    I would say it's much less about the purchase price, and much more about the cost of keeping and rehabilitating the horse, and the fact that many rescues are overburdened and crowded as it is.

    Don't quote me on that, since I don't work for a rescue, but many may well have the money to purchase the horse for a few hundred, but as we all know, the purchase price is only a teeny portion of the total investment.

    I worked at a well known horse rescue in MD for two years. You are right on the money with that comment.



  12. #52
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    Coreene, I think that's a good point.

    I saw some reference on here once about how horsemeat is advertised in Europe, basically saying that people seem to believe they're eating grass-fed mustangs.

    I wrote to a health/fitness magazine based in France, suggesting that they might want to do an article on it, and got a reply back that they didn't think anyone would be interested enough for them to bother writing/publishing it.

    (oh but what am I saying, I'm 'pro slaughter' because I don't want an outright immediate ban, what was I thinking?)
    "smile a lot can let us ride happy,it is good thing"

    My CANTER blog.



  13. #53
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    I think it's important that someone get back to the article that started this and refute these (mostly) ridiculous assertions.


    1. The potential for a large number of abandoned or unwanted horses is substantial.

    This is a COMPLETELY subjective statement and not worthy of response, beyond asking - as opposed to the potential TODAY, under current circumstances??

    2. Public animal rescue facilities are currently saturated with unwanted horses. No funding has been allocated to manage a large increase in horses that will likely become the responsibility of these facilities.

    The population of horses slaughtered each year is only 1% of the entire horse population, and no one can statistically project what FRACTION of this 1% would be euthanized, sold (with more effort/time than a sale to a meat buyer), or simply kept on as opposed to ending up in a rescue. “THE POTENTIAL IS SUBSTANTIAL” that the increase of horses in rescues is nominal.

    3. Cost of maintaining unwanted horses accumulates over time: A conservative estimate of the total cost of caring for unwanted horses, based upon 2005 statistics, is $220 million;
    Cumulative annual maintenance costs of otherwise processed horses, since the year 2000, would have exceeded more than $513 million in 2005.


    Using these same statistics, this means that the contribution of the American Horse to our economy is approximately $220 BILLION dollars annually. (1% of the cost of the horse population). Does anyone BELIEVE this? The entire U.S. GDP in 2005 was about 13.3 Trillion – this would mean the horse industry is responsible for almost 18% of the GDP. PLEASE.
    Not to even begin to address the cost of owning the horse to begin with, and what a realistic study would show about the financial capacity on average of the individuals selling a horse to a meat buyer.

    4. The export value of horse meat for human consumption was approximately $26 million.

    And all of this is simply the profit of three European companies. The U.S. does not even collect an export tax on horsemeat.

    5. The option of rendering equine carcasses is decreasing. Private-land burial and disposal in landfills have a negative impact on the environment.

    The availability of rendering services is directly related to the market available for the service. It’s the law of supply and demand. IF you live in a high horse-density area, the service is available, and the availability will increase if demand increases. It’s not a function issue, it’s a profit issue.


    6. The Bureau of Land Management's Wild Horse and Burro Adoption Program may be negatively impacted by a ban on horse processing. BLM horses and an increasing number of unwanted horses will be competing for adoption homes.

    Conveniently ignoring two things: 1) The BLM is developing and in the intitial stages of using sterilization/birth control to control the population; and 2) There is a dispute over whether or not these horses even need to be rounded up, and if they do, how many of them.
    "To understand the soul of a horse is the closest human beings can come to knowing perfection."



  14. #54
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    Swale01, you offer persuasive arguments, I agree completely with your POV of course. I think you've exposed the weakness in their position.



  15. #55
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    We can all argue till we are blue in our faces while we sit in our pretty little computer chairs. In the end, the issue will eventually be solved by a majority vote. So whatever comes, horse people on both sides of the fence need to be prepared. The real question is:

    What do we as horsemen & women do for all the unwanted horses? Doesn't matter how you feel about people buying a horse then wanting to get rid of it.. just...

    What do we do for all the unwanted horses?



  16. #56
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    Well I have a barn full. I volunteer and donate when I'm not keeping horses that require more of my money than I can spare. I'm not just arguing the case. I also have rescued cats. I loan out my horses and have for free so people can enjoy them, I'm not rich either. There are plenty of very wealthy people who could throw a lot of money at the problem but often they throw their horses away.

    I see some of this problem the same as I do overpopulation of dogs and cats, puppy and kitten mills. As long as people are buying these mill pets they will exist, cut off the demand and they will shrivel up unless we preemptively shut them down with a law.

    I want to add before anyone else cuts me down for MY OPINION that this is MY OPINION and I would appreciate having it respected as I do yours. Too bad I have to say this at all. I have no desire to argue a point but merely share my opinion as does everyone else here and if I have information, an article, a report, whatever to share it.



    Quote Originally Posted by des
    We can all argue till we are blue in our faces while we sit in our pretty little computer chairs. In the end, the issue will eventually be solved by a majority vote. So whatever comes, horse people on both sides of the fence need to be prepared. The real question is:

    What do we as horsemen & women do for all the unwanted horses? Doesn't matter how you feel about people buying a horse then wanting to get rid of it.. just...

    What do we do for all the unwanted horses?



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by onthebit12000
    Question...IF this is true, where oh where then are the millions and millions of tons of cow heads, legs and offal then going? Not to mention the gazillion tons of pig, sheep, poultry etc. "remains" that are rendered each and every day throughout the US.

    Come on The Horse...do you really think that we are naive?

    Probably on the farmer's back 40.

    Seriously. We have no rendering service out here. Yes, it's in Canada...a rural area.... Edmonton does have rendering, but their trucking doesn't extend to anywhere NEAR here...we are far from all cities. Cattle are shot and dragged off to the bone yard. Or if euthanized for any reason by injection - burnt afterwards. Same with horses. Some people have the land & equipment to (illegally) bury their horses and thereby euthanize/bury. Others don't and the horse is shot and either left in the bush for the animals, or burnt.

    Horse died overnight in a freak accident at the training farm a while back. Carcass was hauled far out into the bush. Dogs like to prowl. One of horse's front legs found its way back onto the lawn about 2 weeks later....... It's still in the yard, somewhere. Everynow and again they pack it around.


    I would assume that it would be a similar case in the rural US. One of those things people just don't talk about. But I don't know for sure.

    As for the rest...I'ms taying out of it.

    BC
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    "Show me the back of a thoroughbred horse, and I will show you my wings."
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  18. #58
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    The whole "unwanted" horse theory is a tactic dreamed up by the horse slaughter industry in order to fool the American horse loving public into somehow believing that what they do is a "necessary evil". The horse slaughter industy is not here in the US to act as some sort of equine welfare agency, they are meat packers...pure and simple. They are driven strictly by
    the desire to profit off of the sales of horsemeat to foreign markets.

    Let me ask you this....If we have so many "unwanted" horses in the United States, WHY then is Cavel International in DeKalb importing 100-200 horses per week from Canada for slaughter at their US plant?

    The horse slaughter industry has nothing to do with the number of available horses in the US ("wanted" or "unwanted"). Horse slaughter in the US and worldwide for that matter, is driven solely by the foreign demand for horsemeat.
    www.horse-protection.org

    No Horses to Slaughter Clique



  19. #59
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    Ugh, I just spent my entire senior year at college doing my research thesis on people's perceptions of horse slaughter. And whoever said earlier in the thread about this topic being black and white, you either support it or you don't, is total crap! Do you know how many people wrote me books and novels on the surveys I gave them that started with "My position on slaughter is somewhat complicated, let me explain...".

    I hate the thought of slaughter, it sickens me. Yet I know we have an unwanted horse population issue and banning slaughter is NOT the answer yet to that problem. I've worked at different equine rescues and have seen first hand we have too many horses in this country. You think banning slaughter will find them all happy homes? Yeah right. Then I guess you'd be willing to take a lot of horses with career ending injuries to sit in your 1,000 pasture space, huh. I tried to place a horse in a rescue once....it took me about 20 rescues before I could find a home that finally had room.

    Funny that this article gets people up in arms about being 1 sided, yet if you Google horse slaughter you will find the MAJORITY of websites regarding the topic are completely BIASED on the side of anti-slaughter...with many of them making their own claims.

    I personally hate the term of "pro-slaughter" for those of us who don't want it banned yet. I am not pro slaughter, I am pro-lets all stop being such biased idiots and all think this problem over THOROUGHLY before doing a knee-jerk reaction such as a ban to an overly emotional topic.

    Lets face it, slaughter of horses sucks, nobody likes it, not even us "pro-slaughter" folks. But for the sake of our horses, people should put their biases aside and start working together towards a realistic solution.
    <3 Vinnie <3
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  20. #60
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    Bold Chance,

    I was referring to the millions of tons of remains from the thousands of commercial slaughter plants here in the US, not the occasional dead cow or horse on an individual's farm.
    www.horse-protection.org

    No Horses to Slaughter Clique



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