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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Oct. 16, 2002
    Posts
    1,289

    Question Seriously, Would Someone Explain?

    I watched the video(s) OK. Blank Slate
    I am sincerely trying to understand. Would anyone like to explain to this poor ex-H/J princess

    video #5
    1.) This is a video of RK being done by "educated" hands or an example of "Good RK"?

    2.) Exactly what is the rider trying to achieve in this warm-up?
    To my (uneducated) eye the horse seems to be unbalanced thru the corners...sort of leaning in? Is that because of the extreme btv positioning? Or is that being done for some purpose?

    Also, much of the canter work seems to be unbalanced???

    I am sincerely trying to understand...so could someone help me out here?

    Perhaps I am just looking at it from a Hunter perspective and this IS correct dressage work?

    Thanks!



  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jul. 11, 2000
    Location
    Brookline, NH, USA
    Posts
    2,097

    Default

    I remember several comments along the nature of: "rollkur can't be judged based on photographs because pictures capture but a moment of time.".

    Huh. The giant sucking noise I hear is that argument being flushed down the toliet. Rollkur looks just as horrific on video, especially when 5 straight minutes of video go by where the horse is not once released from the position of rollkur.



  3. #23
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2000
    Location
    Greenville, MI,
    Posts
    11,816

    Question I'll ask again...

    I sound like a broken record. You of the Rollkur camp think those videos are pretty?? Is that what Dressage is all about??
    I sent them to my S judge trainer and she was sickened. She again has said, the Judges are partially to blame, They know whats going on they are rewarding the results.
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  4. #24
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
    Posts
    241

    Default

    Rollkur is disgusting and I would never let someone who trains that way ANYWHERE near my horses! I also wouldn't let anyone who DEFENDS these un-riders near my horses. It's not that I'm picky or overprotective. It's that the type of person who sees ANYTHING positive in rollkur is a MENACE.



  5. #25
    Join Date
    Sep. 13, 2000
    Location
    Greenville, MI,
    Posts
    11,816

    Exclamation Yoda Excellent point..

    Quote Originally Posted by ideayoda
    So, the person who filmed warmups at Aachen 25 years ago had a vendetta against Uphoff???? Gimme a break! Its documentation of WHAT IS BEING DONE, repeatedly. It was in the background with five horses when Anky did her interview about the death of the jr yg rider horse on dutch tv (her choice of backgrounds), it is done by the (then) 12 yr old son (an expert I presume too) for another interview, and it is done for hours in warm ups. IF they are pround of being able to use the method, then why not show it to the world? Whats the problem, except that SJ wants to make $$ off her image. The only time the horse is released is when the horse stays down, otherwise its spurred down again. A finished gp horse should work on the hint of aids, great applications shouldnt be necessary. What is most interesting for me, is the body postures of those watching which were/are the same 25 years ago watching Uphoff at Aachen or today....crossed arms and partially turned bodies and looking down alot. Sorta says how many disagree without saying it.
    I just went back and watched the 5th Video again, and your right about the folks standing around. Almost ashamed, or stunned surprise..
    And someone one said that the other horses were doing it. no not all. There a bright chestnut in there that is doing lovely work NON Rollkur!
    "you can only ride the drama llama so hard before it decides to spit in your face." ?Caffeinated.



  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug. 13, 2003
    Location
    Northern NH horse lives in Western NY
    Posts
    1,191

    Default

    Well it doesn't look like abuse to me. I would only know it is abusive unless somebody told me huh oh well.



  7. #27
    Join Date
    Aug. 16, 2005
    Location
    Sergeantsville, NJ and South Hadley, MA
    Posts
    948

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by claire
    I watched the video(s) OK. Blank Slate
    I am sincerely trying to understand. Would anyone like to explain to this poor ex-H/J princess

    video #5
    1.) This is a video of RK being done by "educated" hands or an example of "Good RK"?

    2.) Exactly what is the rider trying to achieve in this warm-up?
    To my (uneducated) eye the horse seems to be unbalanced thru the corners...sort of leaning in? Is that because of the extreme btv positioning? Or is that being done for some purpose?

    Also, much of the canter work seems to be unbalanced???

    I am sincerely trying to understand...so could someone help me out here?

    Perhaps I am just looking at it from a Hunter perspective and this IS correct dressage work?

    Thanks!
    HECK no, this is NOT correct dressage work. The horse does appear quite unbalanced. However, I am not going to take part in the Zwangsjacke debate, largely because I have had no experience with it myself, and thus am not qualified to debate pros/cons/results et cetera.

    I will say this: no horse of mine, or any horse ever in training with me, will be subjected to this. I find it sickening.

    (edited for typo)
    http://s21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ncer/?start=20

    Mares are like neutrons. If there are too many in an area, you approach critical mass. And then there are explosions. Loud ones.



  8. #28
    Join Date
    Aug. 6, 2002
    Location
    NJ, USA
    Posts
    2,247

    Default

    Okay, after watching it twice, prepared to be horrified...

    I'm feeling confused. Am I the only one who was less offended by the video than by the still pictures?

    I know it's not how it's supposed to be, and would rather that horse be doing all that with his nose not BTV and his poll highest point, based on all I've read & felt & been taught.

    But... (disclaimer I'm only a Prelim eventer who at best has done 1st level well, schooling 2nd) ... but well the horse just didn't look in that much distress, or discomfort, as I'd thought might be possible from the still pics! I was prepared to see massive distress and whatever he was being asked to do there, he just doesn't seem that concerned about it....
    He might be reaching more under from behind, and steadier in his gaits & transitions, but this was a warmup and, well... he just didn't seem much that concerned about her dictation of where his head should be.... at least not to me.

    Is it just that he's used to it and accepts it as a way of things? I'd like to see a younger horse, maybe, being subject to this - do they start rollkur right off or let them go genuine long & low at first?

    Struggling, as I had thought rollkur a horrid idea, but that video just showed a bunch of dressage horses warming up who knew what was going on and knew what was coming, to me ---- not a bunch of abused horses, like I feel when I view "big lick" stuff or uneducated riders...

    Help! (nother disclaimer, I'm new to this whole debate, been too busy galloping & jumping etc, LoL - so please don't flame me, no hardliner here, just suprised at my reaction to this video)

    Help me understand where I stand on this!

    Thx,
    Arcadien



  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug. 11, 2000
    Location
    Chantilly,va.
    Posts
    10,868

    Thumbs down

    Ideayoda excellent pointabout the onlookers, " dessage makesthe horses more beautiful "" can dfinitely NOT be said about these poor horses these o . I found it interesting that when after f she puts her hand forward to pat him on the h neck,the horse never even seeks to lengthen his neck. you suppose thatthese horses can even do that? THe one big bayhorse is so uneven behind in medium trot that what that gait is supposed tobe? He should be considerd bporderline lame", and examined by the show vet.His movement is similarto horse s withstringhalt.
    breeder of Mercury!

    remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans



  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec. 11, 2005
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    908

    Default

    I'ts not just ugly, it totally gross and sad!
    Can we say control issues?



  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2004
    Posts
    532

    Default

    Hey I'm sure I'm about to lose all my fans ;-) BUT what's the big deal. After all the hysteria here and on the other thread I was expecting to see Anky cutting off a horses head and feeding it to the dogs. Icentos is very deep for about a minute then she lets him out long and low and deep to walk, and we know by the agenda of the web site host that this is the very worst evidence she could find - so if that's the worst Icentos was exposed to I have no problem with it. Its doesn't look pretty BUT sometimes schooling aint pretty and the horse is being suppled and being asked to come between the hand and the leg and he is responding. Then they walk. Then the video stops.

    As for the Krack C footage, I think he is giving her a hell of a lot of hind leg, is deep not rk'd and looks extremeley expressive and mostly relaxed for a horse being asked to give some pretty impressive gp movements - this is all good yes??? - he is giving her more activity behind then ay of the other horses in the arena. His irregualrity in the paces is because she is schooling and asking for him to come off the leg - fine tuning him, he looks the same as Idool in the saddletude clip, I never had a problem with that either.

    Now I would never choose to put a horse as deep as Icentos myself, even if I could I don't think because I'd lose the back end for sure, but Anky knows what she is doing and she was not losing the back end, the horse was deep for a minute or two - I can't see the crime punishable by death that all you are seeing.



  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug. 13, 2003
    Location
    Northern NH horse lives in Western NY
    Posts
    1,191

    Default

    I'm not a dressage rider so maybe that is why the video looked fine to me. Couldn't find any abuse in it???? Again though I don't compete dressage.



  13. #33
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
    Posts
    241

    Default

    Who cares if it is abuse? It's a moot point. What is certain is that the video displays TERRIBLE horsemanship from a true know-nothing. If you approve of that kind of "riding," please let me know so I can put you on my blacklist!



  14. #34
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2004
    Location
    Pennsylvania now :)
    Posts
    2,223

    Default

    Aptor Hours, it is debatable whether it is abuse or not.

    What it *is* is *very* incorrect. If I saw any one of my students with their horse's head behind the vertical, bending them with no release, no stretch, and kicking them from behind, I'd yank them off their horse so fast their head would spin.

    I did see the lovely chestnut who appeared to be doing correct work off of a soft rein. There were two(?) other bays who were both in rk though. And my point to that was simply - it's not a vendetta against anky. Who gives a rats patootie who it is that is riding like this - it's just incorrect at the least, and abusive at worst.



  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2004
    Posts
    532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OakesBrae
    Aptor Hours, it is debatable whether it is abuse or not.

    What it *is* is *very* incorrect.
    Doesn't matter this is warm up/schooling. She rides 'correctly' in the test and marked very highly for it. Cross training is a legitimate aspect of sports training.



  16. #36
    Join Date
    Apr. 21, 2004
    Location
    Pennsylvania now :)
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    2,223

    Default

    Um - okay - so is it okay for me to pole my jumper in the warmup ring as long as I ride "correctly' in competition?

    Does that make sense? I don't think so - and neither does the USEF.



  17. #37
    Join Date
    Oct. 18, 2000
    Posts
    22,427

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nero
    Doesn't matter this is warm up/schooling. She rides 'correctly' in the test and marked very highly for it. Cross training is a legitimate aspect of sports training.
    Uh - that isn't cross training.



  18. #38
    Join Date
    Mar. 10, 2006
    Posts
    241

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nero
    Doesn't matter this is warm up/schooling. She rides 'correctly' in the test and marked very highly for it. Cross training is a legitimate aspect of sports training.
    What difference does it make that this is schooling? I guess if you only care about ribbons, what goes on outside of the show ring doesn't matter. But you're not one of those people, are you?

    And I don't see how you can call this cross training. If you want real cross-training, why don't we see her hack her horses (WITHOUT draw reins), jump them, teach them to drive, do western, etc. This rollkur crap is more like un-training than anything...



  19. #39
    Join Date
    Apr. 4, 2001
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    gr pr, alberta,
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    2,026

    Default

    I had a long l-o-n-g post going.... summed up --

    gross

    When a creature doesn't know life can be different, it's easy to persuade him that what they have is the way it should be.

    My uneducated eye saw the rider very tense in the shoulder and 'pulling' -- my computer is sloooow too so we saw it in 2sec intervals-- horse swishing their tails yet being obedient.

    I can't wait to see Rollkur added to 2nd level movements because it's a 'training' aid -- just like we use the 'stretchy circle' in the trot to show the horse seeking contact. Rollkur is just riding in draw reins without the draw reins, all the time... every ride. It's not training, it's a gadget.

    It won't be long until this trickles down to first and training level because "oh,*insert name here* does Rollkur blah blah blah, i'm only doing training but RK will make me win. " To nip this in the bud, any horse going EVEN SLIGHTLY behind the vertical should become a 5point deduction from that specific movement in a show. Maybe that would be incentive not to school BTV, no matter how you sugar coat it, that's all RK is.
    Carol and Princess Dewi

    **~Doccer'sDressage~**



  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jan. 22, 2004
    Posts
    532

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OakesBrae
    Um - okay - so is it okay for me to pole my jumper in the warmup ring as long as I ride "correctly' in competition?

    Does that make sense? I don't think so - and neither does the USEF.
    Well poling is seen as cruel, the jury is still out on whether rk is. THAT's the diff.



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