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  1. #81
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    no one ever suggested they are a 'common training tool' at the srs. that is total crap. even i didn't say that. podhajsky said they had a pair there, and that if they need them, they WILL use them, and also, that the bulk of the time, they stay right where they are - gathering dust in the tack room. i have been taught that way for 40 years, and it has never changed, and never been any different with any good trainer i've ever worked with.

    at the same time, i know a trainer who DOES use draw reins, for 2-3 rides, and with great skill. in france, they are used occasionally to 'save the horse's back' at one excellent school i attended, and they have their use and they have their need and people CAN use them without being burned in hell for all eternity by the god of dressage (named after one of you three, i'm sure). at the same time i have seen people make horses go very incorrectly and get practically unalterable bad habits in how they go. are the horses then going to die a fiery death? probably not.

    and i am STILL not willing to go accusing people of KILLING HORSES BY PUTTING THEIR CHINS IN, FOR GOD'S SAKE.

    the point nhwr and i are both trying to make is this. you can make training decisions without hysteria, and without accusing people of abuse, and without being a first class behotch to everyone who doesn't fawn at your feet and kiss your a**, simply by using a little common sense, and not being quite so ready to attack everyone who isn't as holier-than-thou as yourself.

    not even the greats like mikolka or the spanish riding school are as dilletantish, accusative or ready to attack as you guys are. not even they are as hysterical about training as you guys are - and they STILL stick to the basic, sensible principles of classical riding and have beautifully trained horses.

    it is your logic and your method of attack that i find repugnant. and no, i am not using draw reins, not using rollkur, not riding deep, never have, and in fact, am not doing ANYTHING you find so repugnant except questioning how your hysteria and black and white, practically psychotically black and white view of every issue, can possibly be a rational, logical, sensible, ADULT approach to the world.

    slc



  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr
    Well since you assert your reading comprehension skills are up to par, perhaps you could reference where I argue for their use.


    OK, nhwr these quotes are from YOU:



    "The comment you refer to is saying it is detrimental to rely soley on draw reins (which I agree with), not that it is bad to occasionally put the horse btv. 2) There other experts whose opinions I respect (like von Ziegner) who say that riding a horse btv can have some benefit, if the rider is skilled and the horse is truly through."

    "Regarding the use of draw reins, when used properly, they are more lof a wall than a lever."

    "They are used by riders at the SRS, the mecca of classical dressage. "

    "Draw reins may be used by an experienced rider to help develop proper flexion. "



    BACKPEDAL MUCH?



  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr
    I think lstevenson and TwoSimple have spent more time involved in a different sport. Their input sounds more like "fish tales" than anything else. Facts don't need embellishment or exaggeration. Intelligent discussion doesn't need to come down to their level. But when you don't have much to work with, I guess you gotta go with that


    Oh, hilarious! Because you now know that I'm an Advanced eventer, you are using the "not really a dressage rider" arguement. Talk about assumptions.

    I was an FEI level dressage rider before I became addicted to eventing, a long time ago. So while in the last 20 years, you may have spent more time in the dressage ring then me, it's very obvious from your postings on COTH that I know a lot more about true CLASSICAL dressage than you.

    Or are you going to backpedal on your "the horse should give to the bit" comment too?



  4. #84
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    Default so where is the arguement for their use?

    These are just statements of established fact, not aurguement. And why don't you quote me completely, lstevenson?
    What is being described isn't the purpose of drawreins. Draw reins may be used by an experienced rider to help develop proper flexion. They are used by riders at the SRS, the mecca of classical dressage. If I remember correctly, originally they weren't supposed to be used through the bit, though that is how you see them configured most commonly. By applying pressure with the inside draw rein and giving with the outside, the horse may be encouraged to soften at the poll and in the jaw. Draw reins should not be used on both sides at the same time. To do so creates a pulling match between the rider and the horse's poll. Many people think they can be used to force a horse on the bit or into a frame, but it doesn't work and is not their intended purpose.

    Personally, I have seen more harm than good come from their use and I don't like to use them myself. But in the hands of knowledgable users, they aren't a problem. The problem is not with them as a tool. It is with the people who think they know what they are for and how to use them.
    I know as much about you as you know about me, lstevenson. You say you are an advanced eventer? More power to ya. But you do have a hard time getting you info right or even making a reasonable arguement without attack. To quote you, "well, that says a lot right there."
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lstevenson
    OK, nhwr these quotes are from YOU:



    "The comment you refer to is saying it is detrimental to rely soley on draw reins (which I agree with), not that it is bad to occasionally put the horse btv. 2) There other experts whose opinions I respect (like von Ziegner) who say that riding a horse btv can have some benefit, if the rider is skilled and the horse is truly through."

    "Regarding the use of draw reins, when used properly, they are more lof a wall than a lever."

    "They are used by riders at the SRS, the mecca of classical dressage. "

    "Draw reins may be used by an experienced rider to help develop proper flexion. "



    BACKPEDAL MUCH?


    I guess I have to explain each one to you.

    In the first quote, you say that riding btv can have some benefit.

    The second and the fourth quotes show that you DEFINATELY think that draw reins have a beneficial use. And I guess I missed this one. Thanks for bringing it to my attention again! "But in the hands of knowledgable users, they aren't a problem."

    And the third one, well that's just self explanatory.

    You had recently asked: "Who said they were commonly used and endorsed by the SRS?"

    Well, YOU DID, my dear.



  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr
    But you do have a hard time getting you info right

    Nope. My info is right on. You just don't like it.



  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by slc2
    and i am STILL not willing to go accusing people of KILLING HORSES BY PUTTING THEIR CHINS IN, FOR GOD'S SAKE.
    Clearly, then, you are a minion of Satan, and therefore a gadget abuser. I knew a woman whose neighbors' uncles' horse died with it's chin in, and had been ridden the day before in draw reins. How does it feel to have this death on your hands? I could string together dozens of incomplete quotes linking the train of events if you'd like...



  8. #88
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    NHWR- I think if you took a moment to hear what I've posted on this thread, you'll see that I'm in the camp of 'draw reins can be a useful, couple-of-time tool on a particular horse in the hands of a skilled rider." Mine may even have been the first post in the defense of dr's in this usage.

    And, yes, I'll stand by the use of the word "fill" instead of using the word "give." But, I was trying mostly just to help in conveying what might have been differing imaging of the word "give" and to put some water on the heat and fire that was looking to build up around the interpretations. It was my sense that the poster not comfortable with the word 'give' may have been thinking of how a horse can snap his head toward his chest if the rein pressure isn't in sync with the forward aids when she protested that word and its perceived outcome. So, I offered the word 'fill' to maybe shed some light.

    To me, a horse who is coming over his back can give the sensation of filling up over his topline. OK-dokey?



  9. #89
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    Default Let me break it down in little pieces for you

    I guess I have to explain each one to you.

    In the first quote, you say that riding btv can have some benefit.

    What I said is that experts like von Ziegner say the techinique can be beneficial in certain situations. Read his book. Oh wait, never mind. I forgot about your reading disability

    The second and the fourth quotes show that you DEFINATELY think that draw reins have a beneficial use. And I guess I missed this one. Thanks for bringing it to my attention again! "But in the hands of knowledgable users, they aren't a problem."


    I stated pretty clearly, that I don't find them useful. But I'll allow for the possibility that a better rider than I might use them with some good results.


    And the third one, well that's just self explanatory.
    Evidently, it isn't self explanatory to you since you take a statement that something is "used" to mean that something is used commonly and endorsed. But that is the type of stretch you need to make your arguement work

    You had recently asked: "Who said they were commonly used and endorsed by the SRS?"

    Well, YOU DID, my dear.
    Again, I'll ask you where I (or anyone) said that? You seem to know how to post a quote when it suits you, so please do.


    TwoSimple , you say
    I have a problem with the "SRS uses draw reins" thing because you a limited number of references to one or two people claiming that they use draws. And so you are assuming that since these people are (were) SRS riders, that that means the SRS obviously endorses their use.
    You have this partly right but are inferring something that won't stand up to even casual examination. The assumptions are being made by you. The quotes you list were responses to posts that said a classical rider would never, not even once, use draw reins, not statements that they are used commonly and endorsed. I have been to the SRS 4 times. I have seen draw reins on a horse there twice. So you can make what you want of that. But I wouldn't say that makes it common
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr

    Again, I'll ask you where I (or anyone) said that? You seem to know how to post a quote when it suits you, so please do.


    OMG, you are obtuse! THIS IS YOUR QUOTE:


    "They are used by riders at the SRS, the mecca of classical dressage. "



  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by nhwr



    I stated pretty clearly, that I don't find them useful.



    Once again I will say (I feel I should speak more slowly to you) that THESE ............ARE ..............YOUR............ QUOTES:




    "The comment you refer to is saying it is detrimental to rely soley on draw reins (which I agree with), not that it is bad to occasionally put the horse btv. 2) There other experts whose opinions I respect (like von Ziegner) who say that riding a horse btv can have some benefit, if the rider is skilled and the horse is truly through."

    "Regarding the use of draw reins, when used properly, they are more lof a wall than a lever."

    "They are used by riders at the SRS, the mecca of classical dressage. "

    "Draw reins may be used by an experienced rider to help develop proper flexion. "

    "But in the hands of knowledgable users, they aren't a problem."




    You can't have it both ways! You either think they are not useful, or they can be useful and beneficial.



  12. #92
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    I guess I am missing how you get commonly used and endorsed out of that. Please explain.

    Given your level of (mis)understanding of basic concepts, I am not surprised that this is what you take away a discussion despite clear statements to the contrary. To make it really easy for you; I don't find them useful personally. But I have seen other good riders achieve positive results with them.

    Maybe you'll want to email Mikolka about it. He usually takes the time to respond to polite inquiries. Good luck with that
    See those flying monkeys? They work for me.



  13. #93
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    Boy nhwr, you would make a good lawyer. The crooked kind, that is. You like to have a statement on each side of a debate to cover your a$$. The funny thing is that I think you think it makes you look very clever. Well, I've got news for you. I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

    First you say good riders can acheive positive results with them, and they are useful for developing proper flexion, and then you say that you don't find them useful. ????

    And you say "They are used by riders at the SRS, the mecca of classical dressage. " But then you ask who said they were commonly used and endorsed. Well, to use IS to endorse, and I don't know where the word commonly got added to this, but again, it smells of you covering your a$$ and backpedaling. Only because you can't take back your quote.



  14. #94
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    lstevenson, you take the phrase "a poor ability to think logically" to a whole different level. And really, that's no small feat when you are talking about draw reins on the dressage forum.

    We may have to sign you up for one of those year end awards.. I think you are a shoo in even though it's only June...

    Hairshirt, Jeannete. Did'ja have to remind me about hairshirts???
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK
    lstevenson, you take the phrase "a poor ability to think logically" to a whole different level.

    Ha! What a WONDERFUL arguement from someone who obviously believes in draw reins! (make sure you hear the sarchasm)

    Actually I aced logic in college, so you don't have to worry about my skills.


    I challenge you or nhwr to take an IQ test along side of me anytime!



  16. #96
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    Brains and common sense are, of course, two totally different gifts. Communication skills are a third.



  17. #97
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    Jan. 19, 2001
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    Default True Story

    Jeannette and DMK,

    I was about to send this out en masse to every e-mail address in the universe, but thought it better to post it here... it so logically applies.

    *PLEASE READ* DON’T LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!

    I have never used draw-reins, I have, however, always been curious. I mean you hear so many stories of success and the majik, you would have to be dead NOT to be curious. While I have never really felt the siren call of peer pressure, my horse needed help, and I had tried everything.

    First I tried the double twisted wire with the tie down. While that provided for head set I desired, I was lacking impulsion

    Next I went with the German martingale. This was fantastic, but I got confused with the d rings, and the snaps and the hey-hey. It was like a game of Jenga everyday.

    Finally, some freak from the SRS called me and said “You must use more LEG lisa! PUSH him into zee contact!”

    And honestly… that sounded like work. F-That.

    So I fell victim to the draw reins and it was like a bad after school special. Granted my horse is a gelding, so there was no fetus to abort, but he did founder, contract COPD, EPSM, and Periodic Ophthalmia. When I thought it couldn’t get any worse? His penis fell off.

    Please forward this on to ANYONE you know who might be THINKING about using draw reins. Furthermore, I am starting up an online petition to send to my congressional representative to get draw-reins declared inhuman and therefore illegal. If you’d like to be apart of this campaign and join me in my attempt to champion the over-bent huddle masses, reply to this e-mail and I’ll keep you posted.
    ------------------------------
    Life Goes On



  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by lstevenson
    Ha! What a WONDERFUL arguement from someone who obviously believes in draw reins! (make sure you hear the sarchasm)

    Actually I aced logic in college, so you don't have to worry about my skills.

    I challenge you or nhwr to take an IQ test along side of me anytime!
    This quote stands alone, in its entirety, as quite possibly the most glorious monument to lstevenson. Some people truly are their own reward.

    Meanwhile I'm off to check the diety of my choice. I can't exactly recall what the position is on draw reins is, so I think I need a bit more research on the matter before I affirm something as serious as a "belief" in draw reins. I dunno, that could involve something like catechism. That might be a bit much.
    Definition of "Horse": a 4 legged mammal looking for an inconvenient place and expensive way to die. Any day they choose not to execute the Master Plan is just more time to perfect it. Be Very Afraid.



  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMK
    Meanwhile I'm off to check the diety of my choice. I can't exactly recall what the position is on draw reins is, so I think I need a bit more research on the matter before I affirm something as serious as a "belief" in draw reins. I dunno, that could involve something like catechism. That might be a bit much.
    DMK, I'm certain you meant circumcision. Which really? In light of the story I just shared, is down right brutal.

    And I know that you meant circumcision instead of catechism, because I took a psychic intelligence test, and I would GLADLY put my score of "super majik and insightful" up against yours (which is probably below that of Dionne Warwwick) ANYDAY!!!!
    ------------------------------
    Life Goes On



  20. #100
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    Lucifer's Small Catechism, in contrast, is written to accommodate the understanding of a small child or an uneducated person. It begins:

    A. The First Commandment

    You must not have other gods before drawreins.

    Q. What does this mean?

    A. We must fear, love, and trust drawreins more than anything.



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