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  1. #21
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    I won't start on what you said, it's not even closely related.

    I ride both english and western, yet western seems to get all the blame for cruelity. I don't agree with everything they do, yet NONE of it is cruel, it's the people that take it to far who give western riders a bad rep.

    I would think side reins on tight would be worse then bending... I don't even know how you got that most horses that are un sound are western... It's not the sport, it's the trainers who take it too far, which those people are on both sides of the line.

    Why did western and english grow so far apart yet there basic means are the same? Why does western get blamed by english riding and english blamed by western riding? Why is everyone on here againts NH? I see nothing wrong with it, course Parelli is a little to far into the NH world for my taste.
    -Lindsey



  2. #22
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    Dec. 21, 2005
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    Well DJ...

    The reiner down the road from me breaks his horses at 16 months. It's expected that their mouths bleed in the first 60 days. He uses 1/8" twisted wire bits. In no english discipline would an 1/8" twisted wire with a correction port and 6" shanks be accepted, but yet in all the rodeo events they're "normal".

    There are some good western trainers out there, not many. The good ones don't tie heads around.

    Not everyone here is against NH.

    And, yes your experience does relate in this conversation. I've paid my dues and saw both ways for years. I've worked for trainers who do and who don't tie heads. I've seen the results both ways, DJ. Head tying isn't good for anyone, except the trainer. It's a shortcut.

    Steph



  3. #23
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    He would be one of the trainers who takes it too far. I ride and take lessons and a western/english barn, the western horses are great, well taken care of and no way abused. I am sorry you have had bad experiences with western trainers.

    I never said good trainers tied heads around, I said it's really not abuse if does safely or for short period. Good western trainers will bend the heads around like I do and release as soon as the horses give.

    My experience does not have to be in this thread, if you want to bring it up you can PM but you don't have to bring it into someone elses thread.
    -Lindsey



  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggie4Bar
    From a dressage stand point having dealt with many a greenie, any method which may encourage the horse to dive defensively behind the bit is a method to avoid. That goes for moving forward or asking for a particular flexion. If, on the other hand, you want to the horse to memorize a headset, go ahead and teach it to duck. It doesn't harm the horse to have its head tied around for a few minutes. It can be a pain in the butt to later convince the horse to keep some contact with the bit though.
    (Bold emphasis mine.)

    And western riders generally DO NOT WANT what dressage riders perceive as "contact with the bit". That degree of contact on a Western horse is an abomination for their purposes. Just as slopping around at two miles an hour with the reins almost dragging on the ground is for dressage.

    For some reason, dressage riders (who like to think of themselves as being smarter than the average bear) do not seem capable of viewing other disciplines except through the prism of the dressage ideal, and thus not detecting a perfect alignment with that dressage ideal, condemn the offending discipline and its practices as unworthy at best and evil at worst. It is this pervasive attitude that, when I'm in "mixed company", makes me ashamed to admit that I have anything to do with dressage.

    There is little willingness to accept that each discipline has its own heritage, its own purpose for existance, and its own ideals (and yes, sometimes some downright stupid interpretation of those ideals -- even in dressage) and notions of how to reach those ideals.



  5. #25
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    Dec. 21, 2005
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    GreysandBays,

    I fail to believe good western trainers tie heads around. Many of the uhhh "Modern" trainers do things that are in the best interest of time not in the best interest of the horse.

    If it takes blatant abuse to reach those ideals then you need different ideals. Whatever discipline it is. Saddle horses, western horses, rodeo horses, Dressage horses... Whatever.

    Steph



  6. #26
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    Oct. 26, 2004
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    ILLINOIS :)
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    Jimminy Christmas--apparently EVERYONE gets crabby at the end of the school year!

    I don't do it, and I don't agree with it, but yes, Virginia, good QH trainers do tie horse heads to one side or the other. They do NOT want the amount of contact most English riders want, and NOT every QH trainer makes mouths bleed.

    On the other hand, there's a golden band . . . wait, that's Randy Travis.

    On the other hand, there are nice, decent, humble, good-smelling dressage riders out there. By golly, some of them buzz about on the trails, jump small jumps for fun, and laugh at themselves for making egg-shaped circles.

    As I suggested on a thread ye looong ago, I wish we all could meet up and ride each other's disciplines with an OPEN mind, accept what works, discard what doesn't, and then get a few beers (or Pepsi) and some BBQ rather than looking at issues from afar or using a few bad examples as the norm. I had always thought AQHA stuff was "easy" and boring, dressage was for rich women spinning in never-ending circles, that Arabs are nutz. Now I live with them all and have learned that the AQHA WP horse takes an amazing amount of finess, you have to be a bit brave to ride a big, booming dressage horse's gaits, and that Arabs aren't nutz--their owners are .

    Gee, I guess I shouldn't mention that I'm going to longe my hunter in side reins tomorrow--I'll either be abusing him or trying to show that I'm better than everyone else (I carry a dressage whip at times and spent most of tonight in never-ending circles).
    "And now . . .off to violin-land, where all is sweetness and delicacy and harmony and there are no red-headed clients to vex us with their conundrums."



  7. #27

    Wink

    I think that there are tools and train techq. that work for some, but not all. I will say this about QH HUNTER people/trainers, their horse go beautifully around the ring. Very lovely, and prefect. As a whole, I think that there are some "good" methods that can be found in all areas of riding that can help everyone.



  8. #28

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    I'm not going to get into any "discussions" whether this is right or wrong. For one - I hate debating, for two, I suck at debating.

    I personally don't agree with this method, anymore than I agree with tying their heads to their tails.

    What I do with Bluesy (OTTB) is grab some treats and let him bend himself around where/when I want him to bend. No resistance.

    And greysandbays - I will say this: don't give me that bullsh!t about TB's being stupid. Bluesy would let me tie his head around, he'd give me a queer look, but he would stand quiet. I just choose not to force it.

    I remember one time in 4-H (If I had know better at that time I would not have allowed it) when the guest instructor (who wasn't well liked) had us tie our horses(this was the green horse group) heads to their tails. Bluesy followed me around, questioning, but with total obedience.

    As I said, I would never allow that now.

    My TB is LESS spooky and way smarter than my QH by far. I love em' both. My TB has NEVER wigged out on me. Spooked? yes - but then again, he is a horse.

    /end rant
    “We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
    Kurt Vonnegut, Mother Night



  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluesy
    And greysandbays - I will say this: don't give me that bullsh!t about TB's being stupid. Bluesy would let me tie his head around, he'd give me a queer look, but he would stand quiet. I just choose not to force it.
    And don't give me that bullshit about saying I said something I didn't say. If you will read v-e-r-y c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y, I said ".....or do something stupid". BEING stupid and DOING SOMETHING stupid are two entirely different things, and even the smartest specimen of any species on earth is not exempt from moments of stupidity. I wrote this in response to someone who seemed concerned that any young horse would flip out while having their head tied around because that's what young horses do, apparently oblivious to the probability that a typical young QH would probably have been handled differently and have a different outlook on life than the typical dressage breeds.



  10. #30
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    Apr. 22, 2003
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    [quote=~DressageJunkie~]If this is really as cruel as most people say it is, it would not be used on horses as often as it is, even on champions. /quote]

    Uh, see the threads on Big Lick. Just because people do it doesn't make it right.

    Talk to any equine chiropractor, or acupuncturist, or massage therapist. It is NOT a good thing to do.

    Where knowledge ends, violence begins. Or ignorance. Take your pick.

    No other athlete would EVER be trained this way. Imagine someone tying you into a yoga position for 20 minutes. No physical therapist in their right mind would ever do anything like this "technique." The muscles on the outside are just as strained as the muscles on the inside.

    Kafue, advise your friend to get this horse away from the "trainer" ASAP. Doesn't matter the breed or the discipline of the horse; wrong is wrong is wrong.
    Barbara www.customstockties.com
    Tulsa-QH; Schnickelfritz-Holsteiner; Atikus-Danish Warmblood; Buddy-QH/TB; Winston-Shire; Thomas-Percheron/TB; Mac-Belgian Draft, gone but never forgotten



  11. #31
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    Apr. 6, 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays
    And don't give me that bullshit about saying I said something I didn't say. If you will read v-e-r-y c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y, I said ".....or do something stupid". BEING stupid and DOING SOMETHING stupid are two entirely different things, and even the smartest specimen of any species on earth is not exempt from moments of stupidity. I wrote this in response to someone who seemed concerned that any young horse would flip out while having their head tied around because that's what young horses do, apparently oblivious to the probability that a typical young QH would probably have been handled differently and have a different outlook on life than the typical dressage breeds.
    Chill...seriously, and don't make generalizations, even about QH's. It is not always true in most cases.



  12. #32
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    Nov. 24, 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays
    QHs are a whole different deal than TBs or WBs. They aren't generally as likely to wig out and do something stupid, and their body build often makes it more difficult for them to produce bend on demand. Mentally, they can be a little "tougher" -- as in there has to be a damn good reason for them to do something before they will do it, especially if said something is not naturally easy for them. And their comfort often trumps the "pretty please, horsie, do as I say" in the motivation department. Left alone, with the head tied to one side (I'm assuming this was tied just enough to create distinct bend and not the nose snubbed tight to the cinch) gives a naturally "stiff" horse plenty of leisure time to discover that, yes, he CAN in fact, bend. And his release/reward is INSTANT. No waiting for some dimwit rider to notice he's given to the bit and quit harping on him.

    Just because dressage freaks want to take ten years to get a horse to bend from a combination of whapping on them with the seat, cranking on them with the reins, and a bit of whip and spur now and then, doesn't mean it HAS to take that long. If we could poll the dressage horses, they might vote for one side rein in the stall as opposed to two on the lunge line.
    Is that why AQHA papers have so much TB blood in them? I'm not talking about appendix, either.

    Dressage freaks? Good grief. Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. I reread the OP's post, and I don't feel she was attacking a specific discipline, but rather trying to ask for reasoning behind something that is not familiar to them. I've actually seensome "dressage trainers" and "H/J" and especially yahoo eventers do the same thing. I also don't agree with it. there could be something wrong. Something as simple as pain. Check for other signs. Could be the horse needs an attitude adjustment. But would you also force feed peas to your child? Before one says I
    m being extreme, tie YOUR head in a certain position for 20 minutes. Yeah, it's what I thought. Bend better now? Especially tell me tomorrow morning. Sheesh...what ails people?



  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeepers
    Chill...seriously, and don't make generalizations, even about QH's. It is not always true in most cases.
    Wasn't a generalization; it was an observation. Most QH people I know do not handle their young stock like the sport horse people I know. Most of the young QH's I see do not react to the world around them like most of the young sport horses I see. And I know for a fact that the breeding objectives of traditioinal QH vs sport horses are poles apart. The specifics of what each finds most valuable in a horse, the other finds almost totally useless.



  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Appassionato
    Is that why AQHA papers have so much TB blood in them? I'm not talking about appendix, either.

    Dressage freaks? Good grief. Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. I reread the OP's post, and I don't feel she was attacking a specific discipline, but rather trying to ask for reasoning behind something that is not familiar to them. I've actually seensome "dressage trainers" and "H/J" and especially yahoo eventers do the same thing. I also don't agree with it. there could be something wrong. Something as simple as pain. Check for other signs. Could be the horse needs an attitude adjustment. But would you also force feed peas to your child? Before one says I
    m being extreme, tie YOUR head in a certain position for 20 minutes. Yeah, it's what I thought. Bend better now? Especially tell me tomorrow morning. Sheesh...what ails people?
    The OP was not asking for "reasoning behind something that is not familiar to them". She was all a-twitter over something she found appalling and wanted us to fall all over ourselves to pat her on the back and applaud her astuteness in instinctively recognizing an obvious evil. Many happily obliged.



  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays
    The OP was not asking for "reasoning behind something that is not familiar to them". She was all a-twitter over something she found appalling and wanted us to fall all over ourselves to pat her on the back and applaud her astuteness in instinctively recognizing an obvious evil. Many happily obliged.
    Again...you need to chill. There is a difference in being informative and maybe learning something yourself rather than just jumping people's throats.



  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~DressageJunkie~
    Stefffic, there is a bog difference in horses compared to humans, I can't even see comparing them to each other, both mental and phy.

    I don't see how 20 mins could hurt the horse, the head it not usually tied straight back, but as greysandbays said they are loose enough to give slack when the horse stops resisting.

    If this is really as cruel as most people say it is, it would not be used on horses as often as it is, even on champions. There is a difference between 20 mins and all day.

    I have done that to a certin extent on my horses, just enough time till they give, then they can resume normal head postion. I like my way better then compltely restraining them, but it has it's purposes.
    Muscles are muscles. Mammals have the same chemical responses for the most part.

    You don't see how it could hurt? Well, there's a lack of understanding there. Let's tie your head around then. Just 20 minutes, no biggie, right?

    Champions? In what? Breed shows? How about discipline? AH! There lies the problem, huh? And you've done it? Hmm...hate to be snitty, but is this coming from a person asking how to get a horse to stop attacking her while on the lunge??? I'm all about a person asking questions and the want to learn, but geez...



  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by greysandbays
    The OP was not asking for "reasoning behind something that is not familiar to them". She was all a-twitter over something she found appalling and wanted us to fall all over ourselves to pat her on the back and applaud her astuteness in instinctively recognizing an obvious evil. Many happily obliged.
    No it wasn't. She asked a question. I did find it interesting that she had not seen it in other disciplines though. But I still don't think it was a slam on western riding.



  18. #38
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    Exactly!



  19. #39
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    I do it. Not exactly how the OP mentioned it, but it does have a purpose in my program. Before I've backed a horse, one of my steps is to put them in the round pen with the surcingle and bridle and tie them around. I then ask them to move their feet. I probably do 5-10 minutes each session and typically do it for two sessions. It helps me teach a horse that pulling on said rein and asking them to move forward means to turn. After those two sessions, I'll put the long lines on them and work them. I feel that those sessions helps them progress in the long lines so that they understand more easily that a pull on the rein means to relax into the bridle and turn rather than to stiffen, hollow their back and plow through the bridle. In my case, I've not noticed that it causes horses to duck away from the bridle nor has it caused them lameness.



  20. #40
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    [quote=Showbizz]I do it. Not exactly how the OP mentioned it, but it does have a purpose in my program. Before I've backed a horse, one of my steps is to put them in the round pen with the surcingle and bridle and tie them around. I then ask them to move their feet. I probably do 5-10 minutes each session and typically do it for two sessions. It helps me teach a horse that pulling on said rein and asking them to move forward means to turn. [quote]

    I do the same. But as you mentioned, I'm with the horse, encouraging a response.



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