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  1. #601
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    The necropsy ordered by the family is not about the case, but about trying to find the policeman at fault.
    To them, that the original autopsy found all shots came from the front was not good, so he found two on the edge of an arm that could, maybe, if you looked just right, may after all be questionable.

    Doesn't make sense, when all others were from the front, to call the glancing ones questionable.

    Yes, when shooting at people, especially people coming at you, you aim for the center of the chest if you intend to stop them from coming at you, so that is where the last shots would have been aimed to, not the head or arms or any other off targets.
    That is training, you don't have to think about that and that is what it seems to have happened here.

    OF COURSE, we have to remember no one really knows, not even the witnesses, as some times witnesses can see something clearly and remember it completely wrong and change their story as they remember more or the scene shows them it was not as they thought.
    That fellow with him may truly have thought he saw the big one one running away at some time, if his brain tricked him into it, or maybe he was lying about it, but that is not a given in such situations.

    That is why we have to wait to see what those that study this from all angles will decide may be the closest to the truth, if they are permitted to do so,which is another question here, on both sides, if the politics of this ends up suppressing some information because of the social implications, as they tried to stop the release of the robbery video.


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  2. #602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey View Post

    OF COURSE, we have to remember no one really knows, not even the witnesses, as some times witnesses can see something clearly and remember it completely wrong and change their story as they remember more or the scene shows them it was not as they thought.
    Very true. You can test the concept by just asking people in the same room for a while, what they remember about that room when they have just left it. You'll get very different answers.

    And over the years, there have been many admissions by witnesses that they picked an ultimately innocent suspect out of police lineups because it 'looked like' the person who committed the crime.

    I know when I picked someone in a lineup after an armed robbery I very clearly said 'that individual LOOKS LIKE the perpetrator.' The cops asked me to clarify my statement, and I made clear, 'looks like,' not 'is definitively the suspect.'

    They went after him anyway, because he had a criminal record, but the person with me at the time of the robbery did not ID him in the lineup, so they ultimately decided not to prosecute.



  3. #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmedHope View Post
    They are citizens, they are citizens acting like thugs. They should be treated as such. Start actually arresting people. Also, if they are shooting and throwing fire bombs at police, then the police absolutely have every right to use equal force. Their lives aren't any less important!

    Actually, you're right! A better plan would be to send in the national guard. This is beyond the scope of the local police force now. Send in the national guard that actually has the means to enforce this curfew that Nixon imposed.

    Do I think the police overreacted by responding in full riot gear and tanks before their was any rioting and looting? Yup, for sure. But obviously this is now needed as there was rioting almost every single night since Highway Patrol took over with the softer approach.

    ETA: Nevermind! Already done!

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/national...uson-missouri/
    Sure, just throw the law out. That's how things are done in your fantasy version of the US of A apparently. Thankfully not's not really how things are done, even if our country is far from perfect.

    One of the duties of police officers is to maintain order.


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  4. #604
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyoteco View Post
    Oh, I find the prejudice, racism, and general lack of intellect that is found generally in such situations. There is no doubt what happened with Martin, people still present it as something that we know is not true. We are at risk of having that happen here. As the facts emerge, the situation looks very different that it was initially presented.

    So, I'm not sure that we disagree on any of this. The police should be protecting all of the peaceful citizens, black and white, and protecting their businesses.

    The most important thing - are you listening NOW LauraKY because here it comes - the most important thing is to get Holder and Obama out of office because this is ALL their fault. They are racist and they are hell bent of getting young black men killed to hold up as martyrs.
    Lord God I can't read your "thoughts" anymore.


    6 members found this post helpful.

  5. #605
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly View Post
    Sure, just throw the law out. That's how things are done in your fantasy version of the US of A apparently. Thankfully not's not really how things are done, even if our country is far from perfect.


    Yup, throw the law out! Because the scum there hasn't already done that!

    So police can just get beat up on and have their weapons stolen, and they still have no right to defend themselves, because that's police brutality. That's a lot of peoples reality with how police should behave according to this thread.

    Nope, no big deal when a cop gets killed by a bunch of scum. Hey! Maybe if they get one, they will get streets named after them in France!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_A...and_opposition


    5 members found this post helpful.

  6. #606
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmedHope View Post


    Yup, throw the law out! Because the scum there hasn't already done that!

    So police can just get beat up on and have their weapons stolen, and they still have no right to defend themselves, because that's police brutality. That's a lot of peoples reality with how police should behave according to this thread.

    Nope, no big deal when a cop gets killed by a bunch of scum. Hey! Maybe if they get one, they will get streets named after them in France!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_A...and_opposition
    Funny! I think you need to familiarize yourself with what the police are actually supposed to do, and it's to uphold the law. Not selectively either.

    Your thoughts on what people think about how the police should behave is mostly a product of your imagination. Control and brutality are not the same thing. Brutality is unnecessary violence, over and above what is needed. Surely you remember Rodney King?


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  7. #607
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly View Post
    Funny! I think you need to familiarize yourself with what the police are actually supposed to do, and it's to uphold the law. Not selectively either.
    Yup, they upheld it real well when people were breaking and entering into stores and looting them and they stood around and watched!


    7 members found this post helpful.

  8. #608
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    Oh no. They are honoring someone who murdered a cop? Nice.


    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmedHope View Post


    Yup, throw the law out! Because the scum there hasn't already done that!

    So police can just get beat up on and have their weapons stolen, and they still have no right to defend themselves, because that's police brutality. That's a lot of peoples reality with how police should behave according to this thread.

    Nope, no big deal when a cop gets killed by a bunch of scum. Hey! Maybe if they get one, they will get streets named after them in France!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_A...and_opposition


    4 members found this post helpful.

  9. #609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casey09 View Post
    I guess I am just having a hard time understanding the police reaction to the rioting. Peaceful protests are one thing, but rioters were throwing Molotov cocktails at police. I guess the new approach is working better, but honestly if I were an officer I would want to wear as much safety gear as possible. A riot - any riot - is a scary and volatile situation.
    This shooting is being investigated, but as far as the woman being pushed to the ground . . . It is likely that the police told her to sit down, because an extra person interfering with an arrest is dangerous. She could have taken the officer's weapon while he was putting handcuffs on. I'm amazed by the number of people stating that people shouldn't be shot for reaching for an innocuous item when interacting with a police officer. It was drilled into my head from the time I was young that if a police officer tells you to do something, you do if immediately because if the officer thinks you are a danger you could be shot. If I am stopped for a traffic vitamin, I am very aware that I shouldn't do anything that might look threatening. To me, that is just common sense. There are bad police officers, but like any profession most are good people, but they are doing a dangerous job and most have bad experiences and are protecting themselves and fellow officers as well of the public. None of this applies to this particular case as the investigation hasn't been completed yet. We know some facts that are alarming, but we haven't, to my knowledge, heard both sides of the story. It is just a general commentary on comments that people should never worry about being shot by a police officer if they aren't armed. I can't imagine not being hyper vigilant about not looking like you are reaching for a weapon around an officer. It is always on my mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    So what's the point. We should ignore this death because people are dying in Chicago? Should we ignore all deaths because people are dying in Syria? Or Gaza? Or Iraq? People are dying in Baltimore too...why pick and choose Chicago?

    "When the police refer to the black population as “animals,” on record, to a reporter, it’s about race.

    When the population is predominately black and the police force is predominately white, it’s about race.

    When the dialog focuses on the dead teenager’s appearance, his clothing, his friends, his school record, his family, his habits and haunts and hangouts, when the media publically debates whether he was a “good son” or a “thug,” it’s about race.

    When the media openly speculates about the victim’s possible drug use or criminal history, it’s about race.

    When your perception of the dead teen’s guilt or innocence is determined by which political party you belong to or which political pundit you listen to, it’s about race.

    When you attempt to justify the death of a black teenager because other black people smashed windows and lit shit on fire in protest, it’s about race.

    When you attempt to dismiss another dead black teenager at the hands of the police by quoting statistics about “black on black” crime, it’s about race.

    When you’re more outraged about the unconstitutional arrest and intimidation of white reporters than you are about the unconstitutional shooting of a black teenager, it’s about race.

    When you’re more concerned about the militarization of white police than you are about the fact that those same police gunned down a black teenager for no apparent reason other than he happened to be walking down a public street while black, just like any of a hundred other black teenagers gunned down by those in authority, it’s about race.

    When you suggest with a knowingly raised eyebrow that a black teenager ought to be smart enough to immediately submit to police authority without any trace of resentment or risk summary execution, but you think a bunch of white ranchers are patriots for defying the government and pointing assault rifles at federal agents, it’s about race.

    When those things, all of those things, are what determines in the court of public opinion whether or not the dead kid deserved what he got or whether he was a victim, well, folks, then it’s about race.

    When a white cop shoots dead an unarmed black teenager, it’s about race.

    In America, it’s always about race."


    http://www.stonekettle.com/
    Now really. Isn't this basically saying that if you do not think that this officer wrongfully shot this man, you are a racist?
    People have biases that have nothing to do with race. Some people are very pro-police, others are very anti-police.
    Personally, I don't consider myself a racist. I do think that it is a stretch to believe that the officer was trying to pull a person into the car window. That is not a strategy that you see police doing. I also think that many people made a judgment before really waiting for the investigation, including the head of the Highway Patrol.


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  10. #610
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmedHope View Post
    Yup, they upheld it real well when people were breaking and entering into stores and looting them and they stood around and watched!
    You should be thrilled then! That's what you wanted!

    Except it's not really what happened.



  11. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by redalter View Post
    Oh no. They are honoring someone who murdered a cop? Nice.
    There are a lot of questions about the evidence and the two witnesses. Two witnesses with changing statements but were found credible. So there's that.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant



  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Casey09 View Post
    Now really. Isn't this basically saying that if you do not think that this officer wrongfully shot this man, you are a racist?
    People have biases that have nothing to do with race. Some people are very pro-police, others are very anti-police.
    Personally, I don't consider myself a racist. I do think that it is a stretch to believe that the officer was trying to pull a person into the car window. That is not a strategy that you see police doing. I also think that many people made a judgment before really waiting for the investigation, including the head of the Highway Patrol.
    No, what that's saying is, if you counter any criticism of what the police have done so far by using black on black crime statistics, bringing up Chicago or by calling him a thug and you don't do the same thing when it's a white victim, you are showing preference towards whites. And it is about race. That doesn't make you a racist, that's white privilege because we don't do that when white boys get into an altercation with police...now if you fail to realize it or admit that it exists...maybe you need to do some soul searching.
    "We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals." ~Immanuel Kant


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  13. #613
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    Take Laura's post and insert Black for the Cop and White for the teenage victim

    Would that be due to a racist black cop?

    Laura was one to defend the young victim near the start of the thread. She stated there was no evidence he broke the law.

    Of course, now we know the victim was not a kid going back to school, working three jobs to help his mama with bills at home...maybe we can stop with the canonization of him.

    He was a thug...criminal...doesn't matter what color he was.

    Lets wait until they discover if he was on coco puffs...

    By assaulting the clerk, it does give credibility that he was aggressive and MAY have been going after the cop to steal his gun.

    Of course the cop is the demon...all of us know a FEW cops who are less than stellar..


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  14. #614
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    Laura-

    That makes sense - hold to the same standards. (NOT the SOUL SEARCHING PART- really no need to make a personal comment - you don't even know Casey09)

    For what it's worth, when I bring up Chicago, Detroit, black on black crime, I am speaking to the Jesse and Al factions - those who seek to profit from this mess. And at thispoint Al and Jesse are beyond ridiculous.

    Why can't they use their fame to go to some of theses cities that have SO MUCH black on black crime, and try to make a difference? Even if it's just holding a rally to empower these kids to try to stay in school (meet with schools, heck open a school) do SOMETHING that speaks to a positive, instead of making a career and fortune blaming white people for EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the black community.


    Quote Originally Posted by LauraKY View Post
    No, what that's saying is, if you counter any criticism of what the police have done so far by using black on black crime statistics, bringing up Chicago or by calling him a thug and you don't do the same thing when it's a white victim, you are showing preference towards whites. And it is about race. That doesn't make you a racist, that's white privilege because we don't do that when white boys get into an altercation with police...now if you fail to realize it or admit that it exists...maybe you need to do some soul searching.


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  15. #615
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    Poor white kid versus affluent white kid

    Poor kid will not have the lawyer for the defence

    Rather than just about race, it is usually about money to hire a quality lawyer.

    Casey...don't hire a psychoanalyst...you do not need to prove you are not a racist

    Any color of perp who breaks the law is a thug....no more...no less


    6 members found this post helpful.

  16. #616
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    Forget all this heated debate.

    Just indict the police officer. Let a jury decide.

    That's what happens in America. Now why isn't that happening???


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  17. #617
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    Because the grand jury doesn't meet until next Wednesday? Do you really believe that grand juries in counties all sit every day? In Atlanta, ours met on Tuesdays and Fridays. And the DA doesn't "indict." He presents the case to a grand jury,a nd then at least 12 of 16 present grand juries in my State (GA), must vote and the majority rules. In my state, the law enfacement officer is allowed to sit in the room with the grand jury and witnesses. I forget how it goes in Missouri, and yes I used to live in St Louis and passed the Missouri bar way back when.

    Our grand jurors in Atlanta tended to not indict cops who were shooting in situations such as this one. Once a really bad cop was indicted, and a jury acquitted him. Our grand jurors and our petit jurors were predominately black, btw. Cops are taught to empty their guns in situations where they feared for their lives. Once, over in Cobb County, a cop shot a guy he pulled over at night for a traffic violation. The young guy got out of his car with his wallet in his hand. Cop shot and killed him, thinking it was a gun. It was a "mistake of fact," so no indictment. Both cop and motorist were white. No riots, no outcry. One of my friends shot a guy 2x in the chest during a struggle, and then shot him 4 more times as the guy ran away. The adreline was flowing. And the grand jury did not indict him. If you have not been in a riot (we had the riot in Atlanta after the Rodney King verdict, and if you have never ridden with cops (black and white cops), in action, you have no idea what they experience. Like one case I tried where a cop pulled over a drunk driver,a nd the driver and his passenger got the rookie cop's gun, and shot the cop in the leg, and were going to kill him when a narc friend of mine drove by and beat up the 2 thugs. BTW, the 2 thugs were white gay guys who used the defense that a young BLACK cop had pulled them over just cause they were gay. Jury nailed the shooter on that case. Cop survived. We were like, these guys are gay? When the cop and I were sitting there during jury selection and found out that the defense was that a young nice black cop was "gay bashing."

    If you've not had black friends in your homes, and have not kissed black friends and have not visited black friends in their homes; if you've never been the only white person at a party or on a trip in a car, if you've never shared a drink with black friends, and I mean out of the same container/bottle/glass; if you've never marched with black friends, gone to movies with black friends, etc., then you need to get out and experience what they go through. I've done all the foregoing and more. And you know what one of my black friend of a black friend said once when a preacher told her there were too many young black men in our GA prisons? She said "well build more prisons!" Because she was robbed outside of a mall one night, by a black guy at gunpoint. And when a white guy intervened to help her, the white guy was shot. He lived, but he helped save her. My black victims were targeted by black criminals after all the white criminals fled Atlanta with the white victims. In counties and cities with mostly whites, the white criminals are the danger. We used to have a lot of white criminals in Atlanta but they followed the white flight to surrounding "burbs to commit crimes there. We were so lucky in Atlanta to have black mayors like Maynard Jackson and Andy Young and black police chiefs who didn't like criminals of any color. Eldrin Bell, for all his issues, was one of the best police chiefs ever because he had been a street cop and not a bureaucrat, and he supported his cops, white and black. Sure there are bad cops, but Atlanta tried to weed them out. The one who got a not guilty at trial (not my case) for killing a huge guy who was fighting arrest moved down to Brunswick where he continued to be a bad cop. But I've seen too many of my cop friends, white and black, killed or disabled by criminals, white and black.

    And yeah, I had the call at home once from a defense lawyer because I was sending a white defendant to jail for arm robbing a black woman standing at a bus stop waiting to go to work. White criminals should go to jail, and that one did. But I think that in the 'burbs of St Louis, the coverup is mostly about trying to make Brown a victim when he was a criminal.

    As for autopsies, I've seen quite a few. And the ME does the Y incision, pulls back the face and drills with a saw into the skull, etc. Takes blood samples, usually from heart, takes out all major organs and dissects them for disease, then when he's tracked the angle of the bullets thru the body, he tosses all the organs back into the abdominal cavity and trusses up the chest like a chicken breast. And all drugs aren't checked for as you have to run tests for every drug separate, so only those most common or suspected drugs are screened. And no ME can tell you what the position of the dead guy was in at the time he was shot. The ME can only tell you where the guy's body was in relation to the gun's barrel. So all the shots were from the front, acceding to the smaller entrance holes on Brown.. And the ME cannot tell you which shot was fired first. He can tell you that after a shot to the head, if the bullet entered the brain, that the dead guy would likely not have moved much. But I had a victim, a teller in a bank robbery, who lived for hours after she was shot in the head. Her brain of course swelled, but her husband got to go to the hospital and talk to her before she died. So any ME who tells you that someone was shot last in the head, is one paid for and not telling you what could have happened after a head shot.
    Last edited by cloudyandcallie; Aug. 18, 2014 at 07:24 PM.


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  18. #618
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    Well I think the difference in how a police officer being accused of murder is treated as opposed to how an ordinary citizen accused of murder is a big part of the problem. Normal people get arrested. Cops get a paid vacation. Right/wrong/indifferent, it seems to be a big source of the frustration and anger.


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  19. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sswor View Post
    Well I think the difference in how a police officer being accused of murder is treated as opposed to how an ordinary citizen accused of murder is a big part of the problem. Normal people get arrested. Cops get a paid vacation. Right/wrong/indifferent, it seems to be a big source of the frustration and anger.
    That is not the way justice works, I don't think.

    Anyone accused of murder is arrested, even policemen.

    Anyone not accused of murder, while that is investigated, is not arrested until there is cause to think they are a murderer.

    I think even you will have to admit that we don't know yet this is a murder and it possibly is not at all, so why arrest him?
    They may still arrest him, if there is cause to think he is a murderer after all.
    Anyone's guess right now with what we know.


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  20. #620

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    More eyewitness reports his back was being shot at. Then he turned around.

    http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/vi...nshaw.cnn.html

    I am awaiting the bullet count of total shots fired, as more information.




    Personally, I do not know what I would do if I were being shot at from behind, or from any direction for that matter. By anyone. Friend, foe, stranger, cop. Would I run? Would I whirl around? Would I crumple up & cringe in a little ball? Zig & zag? Jump in fear? Hope to never find out in real life!


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